Bates Family Part 11

[Georgiana]

1 hour ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I don't understand FJ. If a girl is submissive is bad, but if one girl is sassy/loud is bad too. If a guy has a pink room in his house, is not manly enough or a pushover. If a guy wants to have an opinion on decoration or something "girly" is controlling, violent and plays for the other team. You all need to make up your mind, I think a lot of FJers dissect every little thing we know about fundies and plainly just hate. I'm the first to criticize them but not based on ten seconds staged by a tv show.

It's not really an either/or thing.  You can be quiet and introverted without being a pushover/submissive, and you can be sassy and loud without being rude/inconsiderate.  No one is harping on Carlin (and often Tori and Josie) for being loud and sassy.  That part is usually praised.  They are criticizing the fact that this time they crossed the line into rudeness, degraded and put down their sister's home, and completely disregarded her wishes for her own home in her own home.

Similarly, there is a lot of middle ground for involvement in decorating.  I personally think Brandon is just awkward and is overwhelmed by the Bates, but again, no one is so much criticizing his desire to be involved, just the method in which he asserts that desire and the way in which Michael responds.

It is perfectly logical to criticize BOTH extremes of a position.  In fact, radicals on either side of a given issue often have more in common than moderates.  Just because you feel that women should be entitled to expressing and asserting their own opinions DOESN'T mean you must support them when they do so in a way that marginalizes or invalidates the opinions/feelings of others.  One of the main issues with fundies and fundie logic is that they follow positions to extremes rather than hold that something should be "within reason".  

[SweetFellowshipper]

15 minutes ago, Snarkle said:

Wasn't it Carlin who got a little handsy with Brandon at the indoor slide place when M&B were courting?  It almost seems as if Carlin just does what she wants sometimes and then wonders why Michael isn't happy about it.  And as for the chair and ottoman specifically, Carlin and the other Bateseses kept telling Michael to get rid of it, and she kept protesting that it was her and Brandon's special chair.  Then they said to get rid of just the ottoman and she said the chair wouldn't be as comfortable that way.  Yet her family still told her she didn't need it.  Michael waited years to finally be alone with Brandon, they established a ritual together, and her family isn't even taking her seriously.  I didn't think the furniture was that appealing myself an overwhelmed the tiny room, but considering they might have to move to Texas soon and others from IBLP had already done so by last fall when the episode was taped, they may not want to get rid of anything until they know where they're settling (and they could get a bigger place in TX).  Bottom line: it's Michael's place, I agree that Brandon was trying to help her deal with her family, and her family, even though they may think they're helping, do overwhelm her sometimes.

Everything here! And even if the room was a total disaster (which it wasn't, just a hypothetical), why can't her family just enjoy the visit and not meddle? Gives a glimpse into what poor Michael's life was like at home...

@Georgiana, I agree very much with your major points, there, completely... except (almost as a side note) that we don't actually see Brandon assert any desires or Michael responding to them in the episode. All we see is both of them responding to her family, which is very different. He knows very well that none of the changes were her choice. To jump from that to 'maybe he's a domestic abuser' is way more than a mere overreach, imho, hence some of the reactionary responses to that particular bit of speculation. 

To be honest (this is no longer a reply to your post, just to the thread in general), I'm also a little freaked out that Brandon potentially not wanting things he loves moved out of his own home= 'potentially abusive/violent,' while Carlin, Kelly, etc., moving things around in a home that's not even theirs is merely 'sassy' or, at worse, 'rude.' I'm not saying that the latter folks ARE abusive, just pointing out the double standard.

[GoneDownTheRabbitHole]

The Bible also talks about the whole "leaving and cleaving" thing...marry someone and you both leave your old families to start your own. So this behavior completely goes against what they all believe. It seems as though Michael and Brandon are the most entrenched in these beliefs, so I think it's fair game for them, including Brandon, to be peeved at the in-laws coming in and making changes, since they have technically "left" the family.

[nastyhobbitses]

7 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

It's not really an either/or thing.  You can be quiet and introverted without being a pushover/submissive, and you can be sassy and loud without being rude/inconsiderate.  No one is harping on Carlin (and often Tori and Josie) for being loud and sassy.  That part is usually praised.  They are criticizing the fact that this time they crossed the line into rudeness, degraded and put down their sister's home, and completely disregarded her wishes for her own home in her own home.

Similarly, there is a lot of middle ground for involvement in decorating.  I personally think Brandon is just awkward and is overwhelmed by the Bates, but again, no one is so much criticizing his desire to be involved, just the method in which he asserts that desire and the way in which Michael responds.

It is perfectly logical to criticize BOTH extremes of a position.  In fact, radicals on either side of a given issue often have more in common than moderates.  Just because you feel that women should be entitled to expressing and asserting their own opinions DOESN'T mean you must support them when they do so in a way that marginalizes or invalidates the opinions/feelings of others.  One of the main issues with fundies and fundie logic is that they follow positions to extremes rather than hold that something should be "within reason".  

This!

I love the the younger Bates girls are assertive and unafraid to speak their minds. I like that they have spirit and opinions and sass. That's awesome. I don't like that they're pushy and inconsiderate of other people's wishes, and try to play it off as being cute and sassy. Stuff like being rude and overbearing to their more introverted older sister in her own home, breaking their grandmother's hammock and laughing it off with an "ain't we cute for breaking people's shit and making them replace it", that sort of stuff. It's great to be sassy, assertive, and opinionated. It's not great to stomp on other people and be rude. I personally find Carlin quite obnoxious, but she's a teenager still, and if she's anything like a few people I know, she might yet mature and her obnoxiousness will peel away, leaving a fun, independent-minded, upbeat, and energetic woman. One can only hope; fundies tend to emotionally stunt their children.

[Dandruff]

I think the redecorating was just more BS for the show, and the pushiness is also part of the game.  Male friend or spouse deals with the Bateses and how they do things.  Contrived, and - IMO - getting dull.

[actuallyjessica]

For what it's worth, in the show Michael said she asked her family to help her with redecorating. Whether that be a line fed by the producers and she didn't really want their help, well, that remains to be seen.

Also, the vibe I get from Brandon isn't based on the fucking ottoman or not, it's just that he appears to overcompensate his niceness to appear, well nice and non-threatening, yet his dark side slips through the cracks at times. He has a controlling, mean streak for sure.

Ever since he appeared on BuB the first time I got that feeling from him, and so I have been watching closely enough to analyse his behaviour on screen. And it is alarming.

[JMO]

Did anyone watch last night?  I still have a few mins left but I already have some observations.

1) I was finally really hit by the fact that Kelly is really involved with the little ones.  Meechelle would never have been in the water with Josie and Jordyn letting them hang all over her.  That would have been Jana and/or another Jslave.

2) They are really letting their parenting style all hang out.  Showing Gil giving Jeb "Obedience Training" including making him clap his hands purposefully to show that he has to immediately obey whatever Daddy asks without questioning.  ARGH.

3) Speaking of sassy, I could never see any of the Jslaves talking back to their father about his plan to fish for supper.  JB would not have stood for that sort of ridicule either.  

[mstee]

Alyssa seemed so annoyed in last nights episode. She has kind of a dry way of speaking to begin with, but she just seemed over it all. It was nice to see Kelly in the water with the little kids (can't believe I'm praising a mom for being a mom. Ignore me). My favorite part had to be when Kelly playfully smacked Gil after he scared her. One of those "that would never happen on the Duggar show" moments. 

[QuiverDance]

I watched last night's ep, and I was also struck by the apparent ease with which they all interact compared to the Duggars.  Yeah, Gil is authoritarian, but if he can discipline in a loving way, that might not be the worst thing in the world for little children.  Jeb does not seem to be afraid of Gil.  He does, however, seem to be a strong-headed child.  Having one of those, I can tell you it's not always easy.  Also:  Alyssa looked So. Over. It.  

[habert]

Have not watched a single episode this season. Has Nathan been featured a lot??? Are we going to get an announcement? Or is Nathan/Ashley probably done

[mstee]

Nathan hasn't been featured any more than the other older boys and no mention of Ashley lately. I guess we will have to wait and see

[EmainMacha]

42 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Yeah, Gil is authoritarian, but if he can discipline in a loving way, that might not be the worst thing in the world for little children.  Jeb does not seem to be afraid of Gil.  He does, however, seem to be a strong-headed child.  Having one of those, I can tell you it's not always easy.

Definitely hear you re strong willed child.

@JMO mentioned it was the 'instant obedience' style of parenting. I do wonder if that can really be considered 'loving'. When the emphasis is put on simply obeying and not explaining why something should be done it seems like children's ability to judge situations for themselves in later life could be stunted. As well as critical thinking in general if dissent is not an option. 

I also worry if children feel they have to obey adults or older children without question that that may leave them vulnerable to abusive situations - not saying that is the case with the Bates just a more general observation.

[QuiverDance]

21 minutes ago, EmainMacha said:

Definitely hear you re strong willed child.

@JMO mentioned it was the 'instant obedience' style of parenting. I do wonder if that can really be considered 'loving'. When the emphasis is put on simply obeying and not explaining why something should be done it seems like children's ability to judge situations for themselves in later life could be stunted. As well as critical thinking in general if dissent is not an option. 

I also worry if children feel they have to obey adults or older children without question that that may leave them vulnerable to abusive situations - not saying that is the case with the Bates just a more general observation.

I think those are valid concerns, but I also believe that very young children have to be taught to obey their parents, for their own safety.  They were at a beach.  There were substantial risks of drowning or other disasters.  As a parent, when I am in an environment like that, I make damned well sure that my kids know the rules and follow orders.  And I only have two to keep track of.  When there are so  many of them, I think they do need to know that they need to fall in line, to a degree, just for safety and order, and whether or not that is good for their mental development is a whole nother can of worms.  Kids absolutely need to know that they don't have to comply with any old body's demands.  Protecting kids from being exposed to people who would exercise authority or perceived authority in a harmful way is a part of good parenting, until the kids develop their own senses of fear and can employ their own judgment of others' character and motives.  

I do always attempt to give my kids choices in their actions because having control develops their senses of self, but I do demand obedience for safety reasons when we are in unfamiliar, unsafe, or unusual places or situations.  

I thought it was good that Gil took Jeb aside to discipline him in private and let him calm down.  I think that is respectful to the child (not to humiliate him).  

Yeah, there are things about their style of parenting that I loathe and don't agree with, but I can't hate on him for expecting a five year old to obey his commands at a beach.  That's just... smart.  

 

 

[OyToTheVey]

10 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

I think those are valid concerns, but I also believe that very young children have to be taught to obey their parents, for their own safety.  They were at a beach.  There were substantial risks of drowning or other disasters.  As a parent, when I am in an environment like that, I make damned well sure that my kids know the rules and follow orders.  And I only have two to keep track of.  When there are so  many of them, I think they do need to know that they need to fall in line, to a degree, just for safety and order, and whether or not that is good for their mental development is a whole nother can of worms.  Kids absolutely need to know that they don't have to comply with any old body's demands.  Protecting kids from being exposed to people who would exercise authority or perceived authority in a harmful way is a part of good parenting, until the kids develop their own senses of fear and can employ their own judgment of others' character and motives.  

I do always attempt to give my kids choices in their actions because having control develops their senses of self, but I do demand obedience for safety reasons when we are in unfamiliar, unsafe, or unusual places or situations.  

I thought it was good that Gil took Jeb aside to discipline him in private and let him calm down.  I think that is respectful to the child (not to humiliate him).  

Yeah, there are things about their style of parenting that I loathe and don't agree with, but I can't hate on him for expecting a five year old to obey his commands at a beach.  That's just... smart.  

 

 

I agree with you. I kinda hate the word choices they make like 'training' and 'obey' but I liked that he took Jeb inside and let him calm down without 20 other people staring at his tantrum.Then again we do call potty training 'training' so I suppose beach training could be called that too. It's unsafe for a child that young to have a tantrum on a beach no matter how many people are around.

[EmainMacha]

1 minute ago, QuiverDance said:

I think those are valid concerns, but I also believe that very young children have to be taught to obey their parents, for their own safety.  They were at a beach.  There were substantial risks of drowning or other disasters.  As a parent, when I am in an environment like that, I make damned well sure that my kids know the rules and follow orders.  And I only have two to keep track of.  When there are so  many of them, I think they do need to know that they need to fall in line, to a degree, just for safety and order, and whether or not that is good for their mental development is a whole nother can of worms.  

I do always attempt to give my kids choices in their actions because having control develops their senses of self, but I do demand obedience for safety reasons when we are in unfamiliar, unsafe, or unusual places or situations.  

I thought it was good that Gil took Jeb aside to discipline him in private and let him calm down.  I think that is respectful to the child (not to humiliate him).  

Yeah, there are things about their style of parenting that I loathe and don't agree with, but I can't hate on him for expecting a five year old to obey his commands at a beach.  That's just... smart.  

 

Confession: I can't watch BuB as I'm not in the States so reliant on recap here. I wasn't fully aware of the context. I do agree that definitely there are times when obedience is required for safety and imagine dangers and expectations had been explained to the kids.

The instant obedience thing has just been on my mind recently after someone shared a viral Facebook post in my 'mummy' group about it. I was disturbed by how much praise it was getting and that people couldn't see the possible longer term dangers of that system. 

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

After last night's Republican presidential debate, I wonder if we'll get an Instagram post from Lawson discussing Trump saying he has a big dick.

[AnywhereButHere]

1 hour ago, CreationMuseumSeasonPass said:

After last night's Republican presidential debate, I wonder if we'll get an Instagram post from Lawson discussing Trump saying he has a big dick.

I opted for a hockey game over the Ringling Brothers performance of the Republican debate, so I missed that little gem.  My mind's eye cannot now "unsee" that image, and I think I may now need mental sandpaper (the bleach may not be strong enough).     I will try it though...

[sophrosyne]

Ares!! (male version of the Duggars' Nike!)

Trace's underarm hair visible in last night's "Beaches, Boats, and Bates" episode as he threw a football on the beach!

 

[Dandruff]

Saw last night's show.  Agree that Alyssa didn't seem to be a happy camper at all (good for her).

Gil continues to give me a very bad vibe.  Don't care how patient he seems when "disciplining" his children in front of the TV cameras - I suspect it's a lot different when the cameras are gone.  There was also a rerun of the Judson bike episode, which reinforced my concerns.  I actually had the feeling that some of the footage of upset Judson was edited out.

I'm not interested in seeing any more of their family vacations.  It all seems the same, down to there always being a cranky child being told to obey.  I would like to see whatever happened to their garden though, and maybe the family preparing breakfast or some of the children trying out a new hobby.

 

[lascuba]

I haven't watched in a while and when I do watch I don't pay that close attention to it, so it's likely I've missed a lot, but I've never gotten a creepy vibe from Brandon at all beyond the standard creepiness that surrounds fundies. He seemed genuinely happy and excited at his wedding, and during Michael's surprise visit, I really thought the whole "liar" thing was him teasing her. I watched that scene three times, trying to catch what so many were seeing, but all I saw was a shy, awkward guy happy to see his girlfriend even if he wasn't thrilled at the cameras (I would have pitched a fit if I were surprised with a camera crew). 

[calimojo]

Re: the furniture episode,  I was disappointed that Kelly didn't try to intervene a bit on Michael's behalf.  She totally let Carlin and the others ride rough shod over her, despite the fact that Michael was obviously a bit stressed.   I felt they were all insensitive towards her.  True, Michael did ask for some ideas from them, but they just took over.  Carlin is definitely in an obnoxious stage.  Tori seems calmer to me this season, which I attribute to  her maturing.  Carlin will grow out of it as well, though I think becoming a fundie celeb may contribute to behavior currently.  Just like I think Lawson's ego seems a bit inflated since BUB started to air. 

 

I am not dissing Carlin,  She reminds me of a pretty normal outgoing teen.  She seems sweet with her younger siblings, and I imagine her core personality is pleasant.  It can be heady stuff to be 16 years old and suddenly become famous, be on TV, etc.  Celebrity if full of teens who have gone through some rough years in the spotlight.

 

As to Brandon, I never thought his comment about lying when Michael surprised him meant much.  I have said the same thing recently when my daughter surprised me by coming home for my birthday.  I wasn't mad, I was just commenting at how clever her plan was. 

 

But,  During the furniture moving episode,  I definitely got the impression that Brandon has some control issues.  Not that it means he is controlling of Michael,  More that he is controlling and particular about his things, his apartment and so on.  And as a new husband, in a culture where he believes he is head of the home,  He might be more controlling now, than he will be a few years from now.  He, like Michael are trying to work out their dynamic.  Still,  I do worry that Brandon could be controlling in other ways.  It is early to tell, but there is something there that raises just a bit of concern.   Sometimes,  when someone who has a tendency to be controlling meets a very willing subject it can actually make them even more controlling.  Where as if, from the start of their relationship, Michael were to establish herself as assertive and confident,  Brandon might contain some of his controlling nature.  

 

 

[lascuba]

Ok, just watched it On Demand...meh? He came across as someone who doesn't like change but I didn't sense anything sinister, there. The "who's idea was this" seemed more like wanting to know so as not to offend his mother-in-law. It also made me wonder if he knew that they were going to redecorate. The whole thing was clearly planned for the show and I don't think Michel would surpise him with that so it's probably unlikely. I still think his biggest problem is being awkward with a camera in his face. Carlin was obnoxious, but I've been a curmudgeon since 12 so that level of loud enthusiasm tends to grate on my nerves. I think some of it is just her mugging for the cameras. Her going on and on about how ugly the chair is when Michael clearly loves it was so rude.

What did annoy me though, is the borderline sneering over the size of the apartment. Do these people not remember how they used to live until TLC money came along? It's like when the Duggars would act superior to the Bateses because of their bright, matching clothes, as if millions of people couldn't pull up pictures of the lot of them in prairie dresses in 2 seconds. 

[MotherOfDragons]

On 3/4/2016 at 8:16 PM, feministxtian said:

I find this whole discussion interesting. My husband and I have such similar tastes that I can pick out furniture, a house, anything and he'll totally agree. I mean, I'll show him but usually he'll see things that I didn't...and agree that whatever it is is the best choice. One of our biggest "discussions" was when we remodeled the kitchen in one house...I saw a stove I really wanted but didn't want to get it because of the price...well....I got the stove! The other one was over my car. Yes, I loved it, I wanted it but wasn't willing to get back into car payments because we'd just paid my truck off...yeah, I lost that one too. 

Showing off the car hubby bought me just 'cuz I can...it was a birthday gift. 

The interwebz can be a cesspool, and we never know what kind of crazy is reading/lurking here at any given time. If I were you, I'd blur out the license plate number on your car. Just my $.02.

(Not trying to come across as a bossy asshole; I'm definitely thinking about your safety here.) 

 

 

[feministxtian]

I don't have those plates anymore...they're AZ plates and I have NV plates now

[Pretzel]

I don't get what's the deal with Brandon. His MIL and obnoxious SsIL paid him a surprise visit and literally turned his private space upside down. You don't need to be a creeper to freak out over people invading your space like that. Geez. 

I watched the latest episode and it really had me yawn the entire time. They're fundies, of course they're gonna discipline their kids in creepy ways, what else did people expect they do? Most fundies believe in the concept of discipline and instant obedience. I also believe in obedience in places that are dangerous, like the beach. If you have an unruly kid with you in places that could harm said kid because of their unruliness, then you gotta make sure they listen to you. Giving them a pass for the beach, but not for their general parenting. They're kids, not dogs. 

Praising Kelly for being a mom is too much IMHO. She behaves the way she's expected as a MOTHER. She's supposed to be available, doting, caring and attached. It's what moms do, for crying out loud. Watching all those detached and dysfunctional fundie monsters mothers like Michelle Duggar has set the bar really low for people. Kelly did what I would expect her to do, care about her children and interact with them. Big deal. 

I have to confess I really just watched it because I wanted to see Alyssa around her family. Could she be more over it? They way she told off Carlin's "YOUR kid spit on me!!111" at the store with "You were squeezin' her belly" was just brilliant.