Bates Family Part 11

[umsami]

On 3/2/2016 at 1:48 PM, Jenirishdancer said:

Oh boy that rings bells for me too!! I have to admit I don't get a good vibe from him.  It isn't quite the same vibe i get from David Waller (which isn't good either) it's something i can't fully put my finger on. I guess the more I watch the more I might be able to figure it out. she seemed "afraid" of him/his reactions even when they were just courting.  From what I've seen, she doesn't have that type of fear with others. Hmmmmm

 

On 3/2/2016 at 1:43 PM, QuiverDance said:

He is perfectly fine for the cameras.  But she is weird about making a decision without his approval in a way that rings big bells for me.  I mean, moving furniture is not a big deal.  If he didn't like it they could move it back, but she was so hesitant that it made me sad for her.  Hard to explain.  

Gigantic red flags for domestic violence.  Control is a big thing.  Did she marry him thinking he was the best chance she had or did she think if she was more submissive that would cure him?  Either way....worried for her.

[tumblr]

I don't understand what's wrong with Michael preferring to get input from her husband on the furniture placement in their home. In her shoes I likely would have acted similarly.

As for the Lying vs Surprise thing way back when, I saw it as a fundie thing. If you see all sin as equal than Lying is akin to Murder. She wanted to be very careful not to sin. I don't think any rational person would have called it a lie but fundies aren't always rational so...

[SweetFellowshipper]

Domestic violence?! Now this is getting out of hand. She just didn't want to have his own home entirely rearranged--not even by her, but by her family!--without his consent. That's just basic respect.

[J'Lurker]

I definitely use my headship as a scapegoat when I don't want to do something, but also don't feel like being the bad guy right then. It's not the most emotionally mature route, but it can be effective. Clearly it didn't work for Michael, but she's definitely used to not being listened to by the Bateseses and probably thought they'd respect Brandon more. 

[eandre31]

I would want input from my significant other before moving our furniture around. Not because I am abused, but because I value his opinion and like to make decisions on our living space together since we both have to live there. I think suggesting that Michael is bring abused or will be abused in the future because of this is intense.

That being said, Brandon gives me the creeps. He just does. I don't even know if I can even give a reason. 

[sndral]

What stood out to me in the furniture moving episode was how overbearing and rude Carlin was (I think it's Carlin) screeching at Micheal to get rid of the ottoman and going on about how ugly it was.

I haven't watched all of the Bates episodes as I just discovered I get the UP channel, but I seem to recall Carlin being over the top in the ring picking episode, Brandon's wedding suit picking episode and Michael's wedding dress picking episode - is Carlin always that loud about her opinions?

I can't see Carlin (if I've got the right name) being a proper submissive fundy wife, which is a good thing. Maybe being that loud/pushy is what it takes to stand out in the chaos of 18 siblings.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

I'm that scene, I saw a girl who is the quiet one of the family being overpowered and pushed around by her much louder family family members. Michael looked afraid to say no and none of her family seemed to take the hint she'd rather them now. It looked like a continuation of probably years of things being pushed onto Michael by her family and her not really being comfortable or empowered enough to say no, which makes a lot of sense for the oldest girl in a quiver full family. Alyssa seems like another "quiet girl in the big loud family" but with the difference that somewhere along the way, she learned how to stand up for herself and not get pushed around. Michael seemed completely overpowered by whichever it was of Tori or Carlin (can't remember now) who is several years her junior. She obviously really feels she can't say no and be respected when someone years younger than her is capable of pushing her around.  I actually felt sorry for Michael here. She seemed like a girl who has been pushed around and had things forced onto her for years. 

I don't think not wanting to change the apartment without Brandon's approval is necessarily a sign of abuse. While most men don't care how their living space looks (Chad and the pink bedroom anyone?), it is still BRANDON's apartment, not the Batesesees apartment. It is not unreasonable to suggest you'd rather not make changes to your living space without consulting the person you share said living space with, especially if Brandon is particular about these things. And it's OK for a guy to have an opinion on things guys usually don't care about. Everyone is different. 

1 hour ago, sndral said:

What stood out to me in the furniture moving episode was how overbearing and rude Carlin was (I think it's Carlin) screeching at Micheal to get rid of the ottoman and going on about how ugly it was.

I haven't watched all of the Bates episodes as I just discovered I get the UP channel, but I seem to recall Carlin being over the top in the ring picking episode, Brandon's wedding suit picking episode and Michael's wedding dress picking episode - is Carlin always that loud about her opinions?

I can't see Carlin (if I've got the right name) being a proper submissive fundy wife, which is a good thing. Maybe being that loud/pushy is what it takes to stand out in the chaos of 18 siblings.

Yeah. I find both Tori and Carlin very obnoxious and annoying at times BUT that actually gives me hope for them. They don't seem to have had their personality trained out of them when they hit puberty like Joyless-Anna Duggar did.  

It gives me hope they are not going to end up in marriages where they end up doormats. I can definitely see them both ending up more "Alyssa" than "Michael" and I get the impression Carlin in particular can't wait to get her hands on some jeans and sleeveless shirts. 

[NeverQuivered]

3 hours ago, eandre31 said:

I would want input from my significant other before moving our furniture around. Not because I am abused, but because I value his opinion and like to make decisions on our living space together since we both have to live there. I think suggesting that Michael is bring abused or will be abused in the future because of this is intense.

That being said, Brandon gives me the creeps. He just does. I don't even know if I can even give a reason. 

It's not the creeps so much as I think he'd like to be traded to the other team if you know what I mean. 

[ophelia]

I haven't watched all the BuB episodes yet, but I remember that Carlin (and Tori) have been quite rude in several occasions. And although I agree that you might have to act like that to get noticed in a family of 21, I have to say that IMO their behaviour is over the top. I don't think they will be meek and quite fundie-wives (which is a good thing!!!), but if they continue like this they will simply turn into disrepectful brats and I doubt being filmed and being the center of the attention so often will do them any good.

[umsami]

10 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Domestic violence?! Now this is getting out of hand. She just didn't want to have his own home entirely rearranged--not even by her, but by her family!--without his consent. That's just basic respect.

As somebody who works in the field, the control issues and fear are red flags.  Is he abusive right now? No idea.  But the fundy lifestyle protects abusers of all types.... that's my concern.  I truly hope he is not.   I'll also add that financial abuse is one of the biggest issues as to why women don't leave their abusers (even when they do, it takes on average seven times.)  Little education, pressure to be a SAHM, headship controlling the finances... are all enabling tools for abusers. 

[nastyhobbitses]

Is it possible that Brandon could abuse Michael? Yes, and he has an institution to protect and enable him. I hope to god he doesn't. But at the same time, if I share a living space with someone and want to redecorate or rearrange things, I'd ask for their input/assent, since it's their space as much as mine. I don't think that asking your spouse what they think of a new couch you want to buy or what sort of decorations they'd like to have on the wall or what they think of a new layout for the living room makes you a submissive doormat.

[elliha]

19 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Is it possible that Brandon could abuse Michael? Yes, and he has an institution to protect and enable him. I hope to god he doesn't. But at the same time, if I share a living space with someone and want to redecorate or rearrange things, I'd ask for their input/assent, since it's their space as much as mine. I don't think that asking your spouse what they think of a new couch you want to buy or what sort of decorations they'd like to have on the wall or what they think of a new layout for the living room makes you a submissive doormat.

Agreed, I would definitely ask my husband about such things. I know for sure that he would not hit me or even be angry with me if I made that decision myself but it is his house too. I would buy a new set of pillows or new bed sheets or something small like that without asking but definitely not a new couch. It is a money issue too, we simply do not have enough to throw around so all bigger purchases are carefully calculated to avoid running out of money or into unnecessary depth. 

[SweetFellowshipper]

39 minutes ago, umsami said:

As somebody who works in the field, the control issues and fear are red flags.  Is he abusive right now? No idea.  But the fundy lifestyle protects abusers of all types.... that's my concern.  I truly hope he is not.   I'll also add that financial abuse is one of the biggest issues as to why women don't leave their abusers (even when they do, it takes on average seven times.)  Little education, pressure to be a SAHM, headship controlling the finances... are all enabling tools for abusers. 

Then in that scene, she was at risk for abuse by her family, not Brandon. She only seemed "controlled by" and "fearful of" them, not him. It would also seem "at risk" of abuse for her to get rid of his own furniture without his consent, if we're going there. Shouldn't he have a say? Why should she get to make family decisions for him and take his own possessions away from him?

 

Accusations of domestic violence are huge. I don't think we should be making totally unfounded ones when HER FAMILY was making the decisions for and overpowering her in that scene, not Brandon. Why aren't we accusing Kelly, Tori, and Carlin of being abusive towards Michael (domestic violence does apply to families, not just romantic partners) if that's the criteria? I'm not saying we should, just wondering why Brandon is suddenly an evil controlling abuser when he's shown no signs of control whatsoever and Michael's family have shown plenty.

Also, a guy not wanting his entire home changed by his wife's family, or liking certain items in his home, while he's gone one day is not indicative of abuse. I'm sorry, it's just not. That's indicative of him being a human. 

Finally, for all we know, Michael specifically asked Brandon to help her stand up to her family. When he asks, "whose idea is this?" He could very likely be thinking, "they overpowered her and made decisions for her again." They could have had talks in private about how she's always felt overpowered by them and she could be working on standing up to them.

[SweetFellowshipper]

3 hours ago, ophelia said:

I haven't watched all the BuB episodes yet, but I remember that Carlin (and Tori) have been quite rude in several occasions. And although I agree that you might have to act like that to get noticed in a family of 21, I have to say that IMO their behaviour is over the top. I don't think they will be meek and quite fundie-wives (which is a good thing!!!), but if they continue like this they will simply turn into disrepectful brats and I doubt being filmed and being the center of the attention so often will do them any good.

Exactly; they might not be "meek and quiet" but that's not the only way to be a conventional fundie wife. Some people are meek and quiet but not pushed around. Carlin and Tori seem like they'll be perky-perky princessy types. Fun, but not necessarily interesting. At this point, I can't imagine a husband making a respectful decision alongside them as much as I can imagine someone disregarding their opinions as silly or immature because of the way they're expressed.

Could be a show for the cameras, though.

[HermioneSparrow]

I don't understand FJ. If a girl is submissive is bad, but if one girl is sassy/loud is bad too. If a guy has a pink room in his house, is not manly enough or a pushover. If a guy wants to have an opinion on decoration or something "girly" is controlling, violent and plays for the other team. You all need to make up your mind, I think a lot of FJers dissect every little thing we know about fundies and plainly just hate. I'm the first to criticize them but not based on ten seconds staged by a tv show.

[Pianokeeper]

1 minute ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I don't understand FJ. If a girl is submissive is bad, but if one girl is sassy/loud is bad too. If a guy has a pink room in his house, is not manly enough or a pushover. If a guy wants to have an opinion on decoration or something "girly" is controlling, violent and plays for the other team. You all need to make up your mind, I think a lot of FJers dissect every little thing we know about fundies and plainly just hate. I'm the first to criticize them but not based on ten seconds staged by a tv show.

To be fair, I don't think it's always the same people posting both sides of an opinion. FJ, to slightly understate the issue, doesn't always agree on everything. 

[HermioneSparrow]

4 minutes ago, Pianokeeper said:

To be fair, I don't think it's always the same people posting both sides of an opinion. FJ, to slightly understate the issue, doesn't always agree on everything. 

I know we can disagree, we're humans and have different opinions but an opinion is not same as stating domestic violence, sexual orientation or even cognitive issues like some claim about some fundie kids. It's hateful and completely unnecessary.

[SweetFellowshipper]

1 minute ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I know we can disagree, we're humans and have different opinions but an opinion is not same as stating domestic violence, sexual orientation or even cognitive issues like some claim about some fundie kids. It's hateful and completely unnecessary.

Exactly. So he cares about his ottoman and now he's gay or an abuser?! Maybe he just likes the freaking ottoman!

[Pianokeeper]

@HermioneSparrow

 

Oh, to be sure. All those are valid points. I was responding to your "make up your mind" bit, as it sorta implies (to me) you feel there is inconsistency... which there is, but it seems more like division from FJ user to user than each person vacillating wildly between viewpoints. 

[CharlottesMama]

I'm coming at this from the perspective of somebody who is actually in a relationship in which I am purposefully submissive to my partner. I agree with those who think Michael was just concerned with Brandon's opinion in a normal way.  That's part of being in a partnership, submissive or not. In a healthy relationship, you consider your partner's feelings and opinions. My guess is that he would most likely consider what she would want if put in the same situation. 

I also think this is a case of using the "authority figure" as a shield. She has clearly had her boundaries stepped on repeatedly by her family. Given the dynamics, they probably grew up with the knowledge that the buck stops with Daddy. So for her, Brendan was filling the same space that Daddy would in the context with her sisters and mom. It's a "safe" way to say no when you aren't good at asserting yourself. Considering how often she probably did get run over by her more dominant siblings, I think that she is asserting herself at all says more positive things about her relationship with Brandon. 

 

(My first post, although I've been a reader for a very long time.)

[Pianokeeper]

@HermioneSparrow

Put another way, "Make up your minds!" just plain old means something different from "I think your opinions are bad and should change."

 

I mean, the second statement might be valid. I'm not down for arguing about it right now, though (among other reasons, I haven't seen the relevant clip).

[QuiverDance]

13 hours ago, umsami said:

 

Gigantic red flags for domestic violence.  Control is a big thing.  Did she marry him thinking he was the best chance she had or did she think if she was more submissive that would cure him?  Either way....worried for her.

I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that just based on some offhand comments on the internet.  All this started when one poster said they got a weird vibe from him and I agreed, so I feel somewhat responsible, but I think the speculation is kind of unfair and out of hand.

[nokidsmom]

14 hours ago, infooverload said:

Gives one a sense of why Allyssa set limits regarding family visits.

13 hours ago, BunnyBee said:

I just watched the episode.... Brandon asks "who's idea was this?" three times... Carlin was being so rude and obnoxious and Michaela seemed really uncomfortable.

Didn't watch the episode, just reading the thread here.  Yep, we are seeing exactly why Alyssa set limits with family visits.

Brandon asking three times was also very telling.  Methinks he's getting the idea of how pushy his in law family can be.   And I don't see Michael's unwillingness to move things around as being afraid of him. Quite frankly, family descending on a newlywed's home and rearranging things takes some nerve.   My MIL tried to do that when Mr. No and I moved into our first apartment.  It got shut down pronto. 

[HereticHick]

Sometimes an ottoman is just an ottoman.

[Snarkle]

Wasn't it Carlin who got a little handsy with Brandon at the indoor slide place when M&B were courting?  It almost seems as if Carlin just does what she wants sometimes and then wonders why Michael isn't happy about it.  And as for the chair and ottoman specifically, Carlin and the other Bateseses kept telling Michael to get rid of it, and she kept protesting that it was her and Brandon's special chair.  Then they said to get rid of just the ottoman and she said the chair wouldn't be as comfortable that way.  Yet her family still told her she didn't need it.  Michael waited years to finally be alone with Brandon, they established a ritual together, and her family isn't even taking her seriously.  I didn't think the furniture was that appealing myself an overwhelmed the tiny room, but considering they might have to move to Texas soon and others from IBLP had already done so by last fall when the episode was taped, they may not want to get rid of anything until they know where they're settling (and they could get a bigger place in TX).  Bottom line: it's Michael's place, I agree that Brandon was trying to help her deal with her family, and her family, even though they may think they're helping, do overwhelm her sometimes.