Bates Family Part 11

[Jana814]

48 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

She's not wrong when she implies that not everyone likes surprises.  And this isn't a little surprise like "Hey honey!  I'm treating you to lunch!".  This is like "Hi!!  Drop any and all plans you had for the next 3 days!  I'm here!"  The thing about surprises is that surprises, done wrong, are actually really dismissive of the other person.  And some people are more sensitive to that than others.  

I had a friend in college get mad when her long distance bf surprised her.  She had two major midterms on Monday, one of which was for O Chem (which boasted a 50% failure/incompletion rate), and she just didn't have time to hang out with him.  And like Michael, he didn't have anyone else to hang out with if his partner was busy.  I mean, yeah he was going for cute and sweet, but it was also really dismissive of his gf and her schedule/life...as if he could just show up any weekend and expect her to just drop everything to host him.  

I also hate surprises, so I guess I have more sympathy for Brandon.  I would hate it if my long distance bf showed up without telling me (hello, I have a life, and I shouldn't need to choose between feeling guilty for cancelling my plans and feeling guilty for being a terrible gf), and I would hate it if someone re-arranged my/our furniture without discussing it with me.  I mean, I wouldn't be mad, but you would be better served to couch it in "So I'm just trying things out with the furniture.  Take a look and let me know what you think.  We can always move it back!"

I hate surprises also. I don't mind being a part of one (did for 2 friends bridal showers). But they are just not for me. Had 2 friends surprise me for my birthday once. I was not happy about it at all. I was sick with cramps and they were the last 2 people I wanted to see. 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

I don't get the vibe that Brandon is abusive or overly controlling. He seems like he might be particular about how he likes things but that doesn't make someone abusive. 

I also can't blame him for not liking the surprise visit. I'd have hated it as well. If someone showed up to surprise me with a long weekend visit tomorrow and expected me to entertain them the whole time, I'd be like "ummm, look, maybe we can do dinner one night, but I've got a ton of work I need to get through because midterms are coming up and I've blocked out the weekend to study so........".

And she she also showed up with a film crew. Wasn't this the first time Brandon had been filmed for television? Put a camera on me and start taping me for TV and I'm going to become hyper aware of everything I do and start to look awkward despite not being an awkward person usually.

I do sometimes still get the impression Michael is way more into him than he is into her, but from the wedding episode, I dos get the sense he does love her back.  

Anyway, that sake, I get the impression that Brandon and Michael are happily swimming around in a pool full of KoolAid. Michael definitely seems the most fundie of the older Bates kids and Brandon is heavily involved with ATI/IBLP, so I think Michael is just trying to be the best submissive fundie wife she can be, because that is what she thinks she should be doing. I think the difference is that Erin and Alyssa have reevaluated some of their beliefs in different ways while Michael seems to have remained very true to her upbringing. 

I'm not saying it's healthy. The whole courtship model is unhealthy (after all, Michael is 26 but basically has the experience and emotional maturity of a teenage girl with her first boyfriend.....except there is a wedding ring involved!), as is the whole "submit to your headship's authority" crap. I just don't think Brandon seems abusive. I could be wrong, but it's just my impression.  

1 hour ago, Natalie22 said:

To be fair to Michael, she did coordinate it with at least one of Brandon's sisters and I think some people at his school.  If he was in the middle of big midterms or finals, I'm sure they could have spoken up about maybe surprising him for his birthday the week before or after.  Also, because Michael has to be chaperoned, it isn't like there were no other people there; again at least one of Brandon's sisters was there, so if he had something he had to do, he could still get it done and she could have done something else.

Even if Brandon's schedule is clear of exams/essays/work. It doesn't mean he didn't make plans. Even if those plans were to chill with book or watch some football or whatever they are no less valid than plans with people. Sometimes I feel like people act as if plans don't involve other people, they're unimportant and should be changed the moment people come along. It seem to me like Michael knew Brandon wouldn't truly like the surprise, which makes me wonder why she did it. It's doesn't matter how sweet a gesture might seem to someone else if the surprisee is going to dislike it and feel obliged to grit their teeth and pretend it's awesome. 

[Natalie22]

12 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I don't get the vibe that Brandon is abusive or overly controlling. He seems like he might be particular about how he likes things but that doesn't make someone abusive. 

I also can't blame him for not liking the surprise visit. I'd have hated it as well. If someone showed up to surprise me with a long weekend visit tomorrow and expected me to entertain them the whole time, I'd be like "ummm, look, maybe we can do dinner one night, but I've got a ton of work I need to get through because midterms are coming up and I've blocked out the weekend to study so........".

And she she also showed up with a film crew. Wasn't this the first time Brandon had been filmed for television? Put a camera on me and start taping me for TV and I'm going to become hyper aware of everything I do and start to look awkward despite not being an awkward person usually.

I do sometimes still get the impression Michael is way more into him than he is into her, but from the wedding episode, I dos get the sense he does love her back.  

Anyway, that sake, I get the impression that Brandon and Michael are happily swimming around in a pool full of KoolAid. Michael definitely seems the most fundie of the older Bates kids and Brandon is heavily involved with ATI/IBLP, so I think Michael is just trying to be the best submissive fundie wife she can be, because that is what she thinks she should be doing. I think the difference is that Erin and Alyssa have reevaluated some of their beliefs in different ways while Michael seems to have remained very true to her upbringing. 

I'm not saying it's healthy. The whole courtship model is unhealthy (after all, Michael is 26 but basically has the experience and emotional maturity of a teenage girl with her first boyfriend.....except there is a wedding ring involved!), as is the whole "submit to your headship's authority" crap. I just don't think Brandon seems abusive. I could be wrong, but it's just my impression.  

Even if Brandon's schedule is clear of exams/essays/work. It doesn't mean he didn't make plans. Even if those plans were to chill with book or watch some football or whatever they are no less valid than plans with people. Sometimes I feel like people act as if plans don't involve other people, they're unimportant and should be changed the moment people come along. It seem to me like Michael knew Brandon wouldn't truly like the surprise, which makes me wonder why she did it. It's doesn't matter how sweet a gesture might seem to someone else if the surprisee is going to dislike it and feel obliged to grit their teeth and pretend it's awesome. 

Sure, but are you saying that if Brandon wouldn't like this sort of thing, his sisters would have still encouraged Michael to do it?  She always came off a bit more desperate, so I'm sure if his sister said that it would upset him or that he'd probably like something better, she would have instantly done something else.  

[Jenirishdancer]

1 hour ago, Georgiana said:

She's not wrong when she implies that not everyone likes surprises.  And this isn't a little surprise like "Hey honey!  I'm treating you to lunch!".  This is like "Hi!!  Drop any and all plans you had for the next 3 days!  I'm here!"  The thing about surprises is that surprises, done wrong, are actually really dismissive of the other person.  And some people are more sensitive to that than others.  

I had a friend in college get mad when her long distance bf surprised her.  She had two major midterms on Monday, one of which was for O Chem (which boasted a 50% failure/incompletion rate), and she just didn't have time to hang out with him.  And like Michael, he didn't have anyone else to hang out with if his partner was busy.  I mean, yeah he was going for cute and sweet, but it was also really dismissive of his gf and her schedule/life...as if he could just show up any weekend and expect her to just drop everything to host him.  

I also hate surprises, so I guess I have more sympathy for Brandon.  I would hate it if my long distance bf showed up without telling me (hello, I have a life, and I shouldn't need to choose between feeling guilty for cancelling my plans and feeling guilty for being a terrible gf), and I would hate it if someone re-arranged my/our furniture without discussing it with me.  I mean, I wouldn't be mad, but you would be better served to couch it in "So I'm just trying things out with the furniture.  Take a look and let me know what you think.  We can always move it back!"

I know not everyone like surprises.  I don't like them myself.  I'm saying her motivation was sweet and innocent- not to be a liar.  The liar part is what I feel badly about.  He surprised her plenty of times without her going down the you lied to me road.  I haven't even seen the furniture episode so i don't know what went on  there.  

[LawsonBatesEgo]

9 minutes ago, Natalie22 said:

Sure, but are you saying that if Brandon wouldn't like this sort of thing, his sisters would have still encouraged Michael to do it?  She always came off a bit more desperate, so I'm sure if his sister said that it would upset him or that he'd probably like something better, she would have instantly done something else.  

Hard to say without knowing anything about Brandon's sisters, but somwtimes, family will be all "yes yes, do it" to something like that because they think something is "broken" and "needs to be fixed' when you are an introvert. When I was younger, my mother was always trying to get my cousins/brother to drag me to nightclubs with them since all I did was sit at home and read". It took her a very long time to understand I *LIKED* to sit at home and read. Sometimes family mean well but just don't "get" it. But like I said, hard to know when I don't even know the sisters names, let alone have an idea of  what they are like. 

[O Latin]

I watched the furniture moving episode, and nothing seemed hinky to me (although I wasn't watching THAT closely). To me, it seemed more like Michael was overwhelmed by all the differing opinions of her mom and sisters and couldn't wait for Brandon to come home so that she would have someone to back her up.

ETA: I am an introvert whose Friday night plans almost always include chilling with a book and avoiding people in general, but there are a few people in my life who, if they turned up in town as a surprise, I would happily drop any and all book-reading/chilling/studying/etc plans to spend time with. I haven't seen the Michael surprises Brandon episode, so I don't know what exactly his reaction was, but I just wanted to point out that it is possible to be both an introvert and happily surprised by someone you truly care about.  

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Natalie22 said:

Sure, but are you saying that if Brandon wouldn't like this sort of thing, his sisters would have still encouraged Michael to do it?  She always came off a bit more desperate, so I'm sure if his sister said that it would upset him or that he'd probably like something better, she would have instantly done something else.  

They might have been afraid to have hurt Michael's feelings if she were really excited about the idea (not only bc they're down voting her idea, but also because it's like telling her "He doesn't like you THAT much." At least that's how she could have interpreted it). They also might be much more social than their brother and so have thought, "I would love to have a boy just drop in on me like that!" I don't think their motivations were nasty, but they did seem very inconsiderate. 

 

1 hour ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Even if Brandon's schedule is clear of exams/essays/work. It doesn't mean he didn't make plans. Even if those plans were to chill with book or watch some football or whatever they are no less valid than plans with people. Sometimes I feel like people act as if plans don't involve other people, they're unimportant and should be changed the moment people come along. It seem to me like Michael knew Brandon wouldn't truly like the surprise, which makes me wonder why she did it. It's doesn't matter how sweet a gesture might seem to someone else if the surprisee is going to dislike it and feel obliged to grit their teeth and pretend it's awesome. 

This, a thousand times over!

[QuiverDance]

Nah, I don't mean to imply Brandon is abusing Michael.  I just get an off vibe from them, like he is difficult to please and she is trying very hard to please.  

[Georgiana]

7 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Nah, I don't mean to imply Brandon is abusing Michael.  I just get an off vibe from them, like he is difficult to please and she is trying very hard to please.  

I think one of the issues is that B+M haven't found their "equilibrium" yet.  You know at the beginning of a relationship where you are still feeling each other out?  Trying to find out where the lines are, etc?  Getting used to just being together? They are still in that stage because they were never really allowed to be alone before marriage.  They still have that nervous energy, that insecurity, that need to overcompensate, that feeling of trepidation when you don't know how your partner will react.

Over time, I think they will ease into a balance, like most couples do.  

[SweetFellowshipper]

18 hours ago, Snarkle said:

While I certainly hope that Brandon does treat Michaella well (especially with Chad as a brother-in-law), I also wonder how much her family has to do with it.  Michaella was adamant that Brandon might not like the changes, but considering she had only been living with him for a short time after pining for him so long and her family just swoops in and wants to change everything when they don't even live there or use the space themselves - that could explain some of that.  It's a tiny apartment and she seemed to have a reason for each piece of furniture and where it was (like Brandon's desk and their morning time chair), yet her visiting family pretty much told her everything was wrong and she needed to change it.  While Brandon grew up in a large family, too, I'd imagine when a number of the Bateseses come to visit, it's overwhelming, especially Carlin who is rather outspoken.  So while there may be some undercurrents of tension regarding perfectionism, it must be difficult when every time he sees Michaella's family they overwhelm him, often literally overrunning him (like when he visited her for holidays at the family home).  Who knows - they might have moved everything back by now anyway.  Sometimes you have to live with change to see if it works for you (and this is advice from the professional organizer I work with).

Yeah, exactly-- now that I've watched it, I didn't get that vibe from this scene at ALL. Michael seems reserved but a bit anxious. Her family is mostly extroverted, even a bit pushy and controlling. My family is the same way and they constantly try to do this kind of thing to my apartment or car. I've used the same excuse--"Oh, I have to ask *husband*, he wouldn't like this"--because they don't listen to me, but they do listen to him and it shuts them up (since he's a man and also not in their family). They get off my case for a moment or two. I got the same sense from Michael, and also the sense that she seemed nervous because she was being overrun yet again by her family. Brandon does seem particular and is probably in charge in their home, but that might make Michael more comfortable anyway. After years of a controlling family and just wanting to relax, it helps that my husband is like that too. Not everyone needs to be a gung-ho "this is how I want things" kind of person to be strong. I'd rather focus on other things and let my husband make those decisions since they don't matter much to me anyway. It can be a blessing for a fundie woman as she might not be left to do everything herself with an indifferent spouse.

Also, even if she is worried he might be annoyed, we don't know that he'd be irritated by Michaela changing things herself. If my husband came home and I had changed things, he'd probably be fine. If I said "my parents and siblings came in and changed all this while I stood there and tried to tell them why I didn't want it changed," he would be extremely irritated. It's honestly a little violating of their privacy. 

[SweetFellowshipper]

Also, this just occurred to me: Why do we necessarily think it's a sign of negative or controlling behavior for a man to be very particular about his home? How many times have we heard fundie husbands say things like, "Oh, I let the wife decide that" or imply in some way that they need their wife's permission to decorate, change the furniture, etc.? That doesn't make the wife necessarily controlling; it just means she has particular ideas about how she wants her home to be set up, to look, etc. Maybe Michael is using Brandon as a way to stop her family from making decisions for her, but Brandon also might just be really interested in having a home that looks and feels the way he wants it. If anything,that's a sign that even in a tiny way, he might not be 100% adhering to Gothard's gender roles. Also, Michael is the only girl out of the family to go to an actual, accredited, non-Clown College school...for LIBERAL ARTS, no less. That's actually a pretty big deal (in my opinion, a way bigger deal than Alyssa wearing pants and putting it on Instagram with her politician's son husband) and implies that, as incredibly fundie as he is, Brandon's cool with a woman having a brain. Not saying they're not fundie, etc etc, but getting a secular degree is super non-Gothard approved, unlike Erin's piano playing or Alyssa's pants. Michael has also been the only Bates woman to openly express an interest in and enjoyment of sex. Really quite a big deal. I don't know if Brandon is as authoritarian as he seems.

[QuiverDance]

Amazing how personal experience can color the way we interpret other peoples' behavior.  

[SweetFellowshipper]

2 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Amazing how personal experience can color the way we interpret other peoples' behavior.  

I think in this case it's also ideology. Since fundie ideology is patriarchal, we are constantly looking for 'man in control, woman submissive' situations, and inclined to see them (and see them as inherently negative) even where they don't exist. It can also be lurking in the least insidious of situations, too, though: Maybe John is very picky about Alyssa's appearance and that's why she spends so much time on it. We just don't know what people are like behind closed doors. It really could be anything.

[actuallyjessica]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

Nah, I don't mean to imply Brandon is abusing Michael.  I just get an off vibe from them, like he is difficult to please and she is trying very hard to please.  

In this sense, their dynamic very much reminds me of David & Priscilla Waller.

[Iokaste]

Sometimes I have to wonder if we are all watching the same shows 
Michael to me comes across as a very calm, honest, capable young woman, with a very mature sense of self.
No, I am not making her my pet-fundie! I know she either believes horrible things or pretends to in order to fit in with her family and community, but the show I'm watching really shows her as a very humble and contend young women, in a non-fake, non Jill Duggar-way, just someone lucky enough to be born into a culture that suits her personality and praises all the traits that seems to be naturally dominant in her. 
Brandon leaves me pretty cold, (way too boyish for my taste), but their interest in each other seems sincere and unforced and to me they seem very mutual in their focus on each and their wanting to please each other.

[punkiepie]

2 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Amazing how personal experience can color the way we interpret other peoples' behavior.  

That is very true.  I do try very hard to look at things through different lenses, but in the end, no matter how hard you try, one's personal experiences will always play some part in how you interpret things; be it a large role or a small one. 

But when I look at B&M (haha BM), I don't see their patriarchal beliefs as the reason Michaela is acting the way she is.  When I look at them, I'm reminded of a young teenage girl, googley-eyed-in-love, and in her first real relationship.  Her desire to be who she thinks he wants her to be is exactly how most middle schoolers act the first time they "fall in love." It just so happens she's a 26 year old married woman.  While patriarchy is the reason she never got to experience that at the age-appropriate time, I don't think Brandon is wielding an iron fist, forcing her to do anything or be someone she's not.  

I'm willing to bet that if most people think about the first time they were in love, or thought they were in love- back in their teenage years- they would see many similarities between themselves and the current version of B&M. IMHO  I'm equally sure that my own lenses might be distorting how I've interpreted their situation!

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

On 3/2/2016 at 5:47 PM, HRM1216 said:

I, personally, don't get the abused or mistreated vibe from her. She reminds me of when people get their first serious partner in their teens and yearn for their approval over every little thing. Obviously this doesn't occur to everyone, but Michaela reminds me quite a bit of a 16 year old trying to impress her boyfriend at all times, so she's unnecessarily concerned with his opinion on even the smallest details. I would also assume that since she had been nothing but anxious and excited to get married that she wants to avoid all possible disagreements because married life is supposed to be happy happy sunshine all the time.

I could be completely off base, but I just don't get the shitty-guy vibe from Brandon.  

I agree with this, I don't get the creepo-vibe either (doesn't mean I couldn't be wrong).

Let's not forget that Michaella may be 25, but her emotional maturity is definitely not that of a regular 25 yo who has dated, had healthy relationships, etc. You are spot on in that she reminds me of a (maybe a bit insecure) teenager. 

[Snarkle]

Another thing to consider is how different their lives have been until now.  Brandon has been living away from home for what, at least four or five years now?  Even if he had a roommate at his divinity school, it would have been someone of the same sex.  Michael, on the other hand, has been living at home with her parents and siblings (in very close quarters) up until marriage.  Brandon may be more particular about how things are laid out than her because he's been living as an actual adult for a few years, and not as a sister mom/stay-at-home-daughter like Michael.  My husband and I were young when we got married (just out of undergrad/grad school), and we've more or less grown up together, so we've always consulted each other on big things, like buying a couch.  While I'd prefer to just pick what I want, my husband has strong opinions as well, so we compromise.  It may be that Brandon just feels more strongly about furniture placement than Michael, and she felt obligated to move it around because her family thought she ought to.  We will never know for sure, because we only see what the show gives us.

Same thing with the visit - she may have wanted to see Brandon, and UP caught wind of it and encouraged/talked her into surprising him because then they'd pay for the trip.  In that case, even if she didn't necessarily want to surprise him, it might have been the only way for her to see him.  My husband and I were in a long-distance relationship for over a year, during which we met, got engaged, and moved in together in barely a year.  It was hard being apart and not seeing each other every day even though we were on the path to marriage and being together all of the time.  Our friends who were dating or committed and lived near or with each other couldn't always understand how sometimes when something like school keeps a couple apart in different locations, it can make them want to be more serious, faster, in order to literally be together.  Once again, we can analyze the situation, but only the people actually involved will ever know what was intended.  (Also, my husband is an introvert, and would not be happy if I had just dropped in on him for the weekend with no notice.  As an extrovert, I'd think it was romantic if he dropped in on me, but he wouldn't, because he's an introvert.)

[singsingsing]

I don't watch the show, so what am I missing re: the furniture moving? If I were living with someone else, I'd want their input before moving furniture, too.

[feministxtian]

I find this whole discussion interesting. My husband and I have such similar tastes that I can pick out furniture, a house, anything and he'll totally agree. I mean, I'll show him but usually he'll see things that I didn't...and agree that whatever it is is the best choice. One of our biggest "discussions" was when we remodeled the kitchen in one house...I saw a stove I really wanted but didn't want to get it because of the price...well....I got the stove! The other one was over my car. Yes, I loved it, I wanted it but wasn't willing to get back into car payments because we'd just paid my truck off...yeah, I lost that one too. 

Showing off the car hubby bought me just 'cuz I can...it was a birthday gift. 

[Snarkle]

47 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I don't watch the show, so what am I missing re: the furniture moving? If I were living with someone else, I'd want their input before moving furniture, too.

Long story short:  Kelly, Carlin, and Josie(?) plus a couple of other Bates kids arrive at Michael's tiny apartment (it's New York size) and proceed to tell her the two small couches, chair + ottoman, and dining set (a high top table that is barely big enough for two, plus two bistro bar stools) are in the wrong places for the tiny room.  [I'm not sure how they fit all of the Bateseses and the camera crew in the apartment, but they did.]  They then try to convince Michael to get rid of different things, especially the chair + ottoman or just the ottoman [Michael objects that she and Brandon snuggle up in the chair each morning for Bible study]), and she resists.  She also doesn't want to move Brandon's desk.  She is reluctant to move anything because Brandon might not like it, but the family goes ahead and rearranges everything anyway.  Brandon comes home and is overwhelmed by the changes, but is somewhat gracious about it, if tentative.  Frankly if I lived in that apartment I'd feel claustrophobic, but Michael seems happy (she's used to claustrophobia living with 20 other people, probably).  I deleted it off of my DVR or I'd go into more detail, but that is the gist of it.  Anyone else want to fill in more detail?   

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, Snarkle said:

Long story short:  Kelly, Carlin, and Josie(?) plus a couple of other Bates kids arrive at Michael's tiny apartment (it's New York size) and proceed to tell her the two small couches, chair + ottoman, and dining set (a high top table that is barely big enough for two, plus two bistro bar stools) are in the wrong places for the tiny room.  [I'm not sure how they fit all of the Bateseses and the camera crew in the apartment, but they did.]  They then try to convince Michael to get rid of different things, especially the chair + ottoman or just the ottoman [Michael objects that she and Brandon snuggle up in the chair each morning for Bible study]), and she resists.  She also doesn't want to move Brandon's desk.  She is reluctant to move anything because Brandon might like it, but the family goes ahead and rearranges everything anyway.  Brandon comes home and is overwhelmed by the changes.  Frankly if I lived in that apartment I'd feel claustrophobic, but Michael seems happy (she's used to claustrophobia living with 20 other people, probably).  I deleted it off of my DVR or I'd go into more detail, but that is the gist of it.  Anyone else want to fill in more detail?   

Wow, that was incredibly rude of them if that's what happened. I would have told them all to get out.

[SweetFellowshipper]

Yeah, I noticed the incredible rudeness and presumptuousness of the family much more than a "fear" of Brandon...if I had an ottoman I snuggled in with my partner every morning I'd be pretty irritated if their family tried to get rid of it, too. Seriously, who does that?

[infooverload]

Gives one a sense of why Allyssa set limits regarding family visits.

[BunnyBee]

15 minutes ago, infooverload said:

Gives one a sense of why Allyssa set limits regarding family visits.

I just watched the episode.... Brandon asks "who's idea was this?" three times... Carlin was being so rude and obnoxious and Michaela seemed really uncomfortable.