Bates Family Part 10

[vienna]

More Infos from Lawson

[Fundie Bunny]

Ugh, what a downer

[vienna]

This does not surprise me. Of course they will be at the conferences and meet all the people they know for centuries there. But stepping away from Gothard still is a big thing. In regard as how much they also do step away from his teachings I think we cannot say for sure and it will be different for each kid since every one of them is allowed to make their own decisions something I believed even before the instagram posts. The Bates are fundies but much healthier then the Duggars.

I respect that they answer this questions (unlike the Duggars who would never ever answer anything) and I respect that at least some of them stepped away from Gothard.

[IrishCarrie]

Maybe I'm cynical, but it sounds to me as though they still believe everything Gothard ever said, but he's so toxic they need to take a step back from him. So they'll throw Bill Gothard under the bus while merrily carrying on in EXACTLY the same way as before 

[roddma]

The Bateses aren't healthier belief wise no matter how they try to spin themselves. I refuse to be fooled by them. I thought they were odd when they first appeared way back on '17 Kids', and I still do. Put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

13 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

So Erin says "I'm not associated with IBLP anymore."  but she couldn't possibly mean it because she still wears dresses.  Alyssa can't be making a slow move towards fundie lite because wearing pants doesn't mean anything.  So what does Erin have to do to prove she and Chad aren't associated with IBLP?  Does she need to abort this baby?  Divorce Chad?  Shun all of her family friends she's known her whole life?  This is the same black/white thinking that we hate about the fundies.

I agree with this as well. Sometimes I think FJers think the only way to reject ATI/IBLP is for Erin to dye her hair green and announce Chad has had a vasectomy or for Alyssa to announce she is going to try and become a swimsuit model in sports illustrated next year. 

I get that it is fun to root for a dramatic “Breaking Bates” (or Duggar) style escape where a couple of the kids dramatically flee in the middle of the night to go to school at Berkeley, write a tell-all book and become liberal atheists who fundraise for planned parenthood or something, the reality is that most of the changes we see the kids making from the ATI/IBLP lifestyle will be more gradual. And that is understandable. A dramatic defection would likely see them almost completely isolated from their family and social networks and that is an incredibly difficult thing and I don’t expect to see it happen. Out of 38 kids in the family, there are good odds at least one of them will reject their upbringing completely, but I think most of the shifts away from ATI/IBLP/Quiverfull will be pretty undramatic and nearly all the kids will remain very conservative Christians. 

Alyssa is a good example of this. Sure, became a teenage bride and married someone from the same background and quickly popped out a blessing. But she has given several signs she might be going more mainstream Christian, such as strongly hinting she wants a smaller family than the one she grew up in (and having Allie doesn’t necessary contradict that, many “normal” couples fall pregnant in the first year of marriage without wanting 19 more), saying that she didn’t really like being put on TV as a minor (this is a big deal given her ‘Daddy speaks for God’ upbringing), standing up for herself on instagram (goes against “keeping sweet” and viewing being persecuted as a “blessing”) and dressing in a more mainstream way.

It may not be as dramatic as her running off to college, joining a sorority, piercing her belly button and appearing on MTV Spring Break, but they are still changes that show she has the ability to think for herself about what Christianity means to her and seems to be relaxing on some of the more extreme IBLP/ATI principles. She’ll always likely be very conservative and religious given her background, but if Alyssa and John can be the kind of religious folk who don’t pop out more kids than they can handle and let Allie get a proper high school education instead of spending her time potty training blessing #12, I’ll be fine with that.

I also don’t get why it is such a big deal Erin is still wearing longer dresses and covering her shoulders. Everyone has their own sense of style and dresses in the way that makes them feel the most comfortable and if that’s what Erin wants to wear, who cares. My friends and I are not fundie or even Christian in any way, and we have a big variety of ‘styles’ between us. Clothing is a very individual thing. 

But I do think the fact she has come out and said she is not associated with IBLP/ATI is a big deal, as is she fact she is continuing to work after having Carson and spoke for herself and Chad. Can you imagine Michelle or Kelly speaking "for" their headships?  Like Alyssa, they are little shifts that show she is doing some thinking for herself.

Slightly OT, but I actually believe her and Chad didn’t plan this pregnancy. Just a gut feeling, but in that video, Erin seemed "nervous happy" and Chad had this terrified look in his eyes, especially when he was asking for prayers. And they wouldn’t be the first couple to get pregnant using NFP, if that is what they were doing. 

[feministxtian]

I believe that Chad and Erin have a pretty good handle on the pregnancy issues. I wouldn't get too into the on purpose or not thing. Their history is pretty scary. I wouldn't be surprised if they were shitting bricks. 

Yeah, it'd be nice if we saw Alyssa in a bikini and Erin in a pair of jeans...but...

Let's look at the Bates kids...Zach is a cop, their 2nd kid will be about 18 months younger than their first one. Chad works for a local business...their kids will be about 16 months apart, Erin is still working, teaching, recording. John works for his dad's business, Alyssa has totally changed her wardrobe, and no sign of Webster #2. Michael and Brandon will stay in the IBLP fold. We are not privy to their private beliefs, conversations, etc. 

Yeah, there was a cake for Gothard at Chad & Erin's wedding...HOWEVER...that was what? 3 years ago? That has nothing to do with what is currently going on with them. Maybe it's something they now regret. 

I'd avoid rushing to judgment either way...

I am well aware that the Bates Sr. are still in the IBLP fold...and that's them. Their adult children will eventually find their own way in life. I can tell you that I am nothing like the way I was raised...at all. My parents would be turning in their graves if they knew my current religious and political beliefs. I was raised Roman Catholic, a staunch Republican, including listening to Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy on the radio, taking part in pro-life marches. Hell, I did that until I was in my mid-30s. Now? Liberal Democrat, pro-choice, not Catholic anymore...it took years for my beliefs to evolve...give these kids some time. 

 

[Kak]

On 20 February 2016 at 11:26 AM, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

This is something I’ve noticed a lot of on FJ during my lurking. 

I also think people sometimes forget that human beings are multi-faceted and complex creatures….like the quote in Harry Potter where Sirius says that we all have both light and dark inside of us. This applies to fundies just as much as anyone else. Like anyone else, they are capable of being nice people/doing great things and ALSO saying/doing really shitty things. 

And with that said, I think some people also don't realise you can say something nice about a fundie or like something about one without endorsing what they believe in. For example, I think Alyssa has a cute sense of style and I think Chad seems like a pretty great husband. Sure, I don’t agree with their beliefs, but that doesn’t change that Chad seems to be a very loving husband and father to Erin and Carson or the fact I'd love to raid Alyssa's wardrobe if we were the same size. It’s the same way that Lawson is capable of being both a sweet guy who goes and sings at children’s hospitals AND also being a fundie frat boy with the ego the size of jupiter.

You don't have to insult EVERYTHING a fundie does to think ATI/IBLP is effed up. It's even OK to find some of their traits likeable....and it doesn't make you a leghumper either. It just means that your opinion on someone doesn't have to be "all or nothing". It's perfectly normal and OK to like some things about a person and not others. And sometimes I think people on this board forget that.

You joined FJ on Friday. How very bold you are.

[singsingsing]

You can be a fundamentalist and still reject IBLP/ATI. Plenty of fundamentalists have totally rejected Gothard for a long time (Anna Duggar's sister Esther is married to one of them, for example). Someone in this thread said the Duggars have tried to claim that they're not associated with ATI. I don't know if that's true, but I do know that they've definitely claimed that they're not quiverfull and that they don't even know what quiverfull is, which is clearly bullshit. 

Even if Erin were to come out and say that she and Chad 'strongly reject' and 'totally disagree with' IBLP/ATI/Gothard, it would mean nothing in terms of whether or not they're still fundamentalists.

All I'm saying is, maybe don't be so eager to believe that they're on their way out of fundamentalism just because they're rejecting Gothard or wearing pants or letting their kids watch Winnie the Pooh. Remember how convinced everyone was that Jill was going to at least go fundie lite when she was courting Derick? I know we all hope these people will leave fundamentalism, and I'm sure some of them will, but I think it's a bit too soon to break out the champagne.

 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

21 minutes ago, Kak said:

You joined FJ on Friday. How very bold you are.

Perhaps you didn't read where I mentioned I have lurked for quite some time before deciding to post. 

[habert]

5 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Um, this was not the first Bateseseses wedding. And Gothard came and Chad and Erin were both photographed fawning over him. You people realize the Duggars claim no involvement with ATI as well, right?

What do you mean, not the first? Of Gil and Kelly's kids, yeah she was. Erin Nov 2013, Zach Dec 2013, Alyssa May 2014 and then Michael whenever that happened this past year

[actuallyjessica]

1 minute ago, habert said:

What do you mean, not the first? Of Gil and Kelly's kids, yeah she was. Erin Nov 2013, Zach Dec 2013, Alyssa May 2014 and then Michael whenever that happened this past year

And not only that, but even if Zach was first to marry, Erin would be their first daughter. Traditionally, the bride's parents are more involved in wedding planning than the groom's parents are.

[Whoosh]

30 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Perhaps you didn't read where I mentioned I have lurked for quite some time before deciding to post. 

To be honest, tons of people make this same claim - sometimes it appears to be true and sometimes not.  If you have been reading various areas of FJ for a long time, I am sure that you know that these claims are a dime a dozen and not always believed.  I don't think people doubt each particular claim of "long time lurker" necessarily, but in my opinion there is a general community sense that the proof is in the pudding and that while newer members shouldn't necessarily be discounted out of hand, respect is earned (to some extent anyway) kind of thing.  Then again, I am a pretty new member and I fully admit that I only read a little bit for a few months before joining (though I read EXTENSIVELY in a short period after I did decide to join), so I am not really the best one to say what the "FJ way" is LOL.

Anyway - just my 2 cents.  It does seem to me that people who have lurked for a while (and/or have read fairly extensively in a shorter time) before posting "bold" types of posts AND who have managed to learn and understand a fair amount about the FJ board culture (and every online community has a culture) manage to integrate into the community pretty well (for the most part - some people seem to either not want to or to have some other type of situation but that seems pretty rare).  

Those are some messy and confusing sentences, but I am not seeing a way to easily fix them and still say what I am trying to say.  Welcome to the world of being a registered FJ user!  

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, roddma said:

No one is saying Erin and other Fundie women are dumb sheep or unhappy. However, I guess I think of Andrea Yates. Various testimonies from those who knew her thought she was the last to get into somethng like QF. She was a former nurse.

It's hard to say what they choose or don't choose. Rusty Yates kept insisting they have more kid in spite of doc's warnings. Jim Bob said once he left the number of kids up to Michelle. Did he really? Cults and legalism are so powerful they make you think your past life is wrong or if you are raised in it, other choices are wrong. They make a strong independent woman turn into a submissive baby factory. Im sure some are happy, but you have to think it's the only life they ever knew. They have no other choices to compare them to.. And i think most o FJ know you can say some positive tings about each family without agreeing with their beliefs.
I hope all goes well for Erin. Maybe she thought they couldn't have anymore or at least not this soon. Michelle was surprised at Jubilee perhaps thinking she as well could have no more.Jill and Derick were surprised. . But if you don't use any birth control what can you expect in any case?

To be fair, we just found out I'm pregnant with our first yesterday. We knew we were trying and weren't using any protection or anything - but actually seeing those two lines and the "yes" on the digital test was shocking and a massive surprise for us both. No way did we expect to get pregnant as fast as I did. I can absolutely see how these couples could honestly be surprised by a positive test result.

And I agree. We can give credit for good qualities these people exhibit while also pointing out the realities of their situations. 

I doubt Erin and Chad are stupid people. They seem to be very loving towards each other and their son. That doesn't mean I'm not going to express concern for Erin due to this latest pregnancy though nor am I going to just believe anything they say in regards to Gothard and ATI either. 

[actuallyjessica]

@VelociRapture, congratulations!

[vienna]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

You can be a fundamentalist and still reject IBLP/ATI. Plenty of fundamentalists have totally rejected Gothard for a long time (Anna Duggar's sister Esther is married to one of them, for example). Someone in this thread said the Duggars have tried to claim that they're not associated with ATI. I don't know if that's true, but I do know that they've definitely claimed that they're not quiverfull and that they don't even know what quiverfull is, which is clearly bullshit. 

Even if Erin were to come out and say that she and Chad 'strongly reject' and 'totally disagree with' IBLP/ATI/Gothard, it would mean nothing in terms of whether or not they're still fundamentalists.

All I'm saying is, maybe don't be so eager to believe that they're on their way out of fundamentalism just because they're rejecting Gothard or wearing pants or letting their kids watch Winnie the Pooh. Remember how convinced everyone was that Jill was going to at least go fundie lite when she was courting Derick? I know we all hope these people will leave fundamentalism, and I'm sure some of them will, but I think it's a bit too soon to break out the champagne.

 

They still are fundamental christiens, no doubt. But the important thing for me here is, that those ttatements showed, that each of the (older) kids seem to develop their own believe and to see some things different then their parents. They also serm tho have healthier realtionships in the sense that  eg the woman can speak for both of them. Never ever would this happen to a Duggar where everyone, even the married kids are trained to repeat as they have been told to. They can not and do not think for themselves. The Bates seem to and to allowe thier kids to do so. Thats all, not more not less.

 

[lascuba]

Congratulations, @VelociRapture!

The whole thing reeks of damage control to me, especially after Lawson's comment. They're feeling the heat over the scandals so they're trying to distance themselves. And regardless if the distancing from Gothard/ATI comes from a place of legitimate reflection...meh. Like others have said, they're still fundamentalist. The flavor of fundie doesn't particularly matter to me even if it's a big deal to them. Call me when they upgrade to plain old conservative Christian. 

[RoseWilder]

I think, out of all the married Bates kids, Zach seems to be the one who is showing the strongest signs of moving away from his parents' beliefs. 

1. He decided to date Whitney instead of doing a courtship. 

2. He dated someone outside of the cult, who had a job and was pursuing a medical coding degree of some kind. 

3. He and Whitney don't attend homechurch with the Bates family. 

4. Zach said he's going to let his child watch some mainstream TV. 

5. He got a job working for someone else, where he not only had to train but will continue to have to work with and for people who do no share his family's beliefs. He might even have to (GASP) work with or for a woman. 

Those are hugs changes for a person to make in the span of less than 3 years. 

There are a lot of other things that remain to be seen (whether they will homeschool, if they're going to have 20 kids, if they're going to make the older kids raise the younger ones) - but I'm seeing some hopeful signs that he's slowly moving away from his parents beliefs. Who knows how far he'll move away from those beliefs, but I think there's a good chance that he will be capable of reevaluating other aspects of his parents beliefs in the coming years. 

[HereticHick]

Velocirapture, congrats on the future little scaly blessing! Promise us you won't name it Spurgeon/Spurgeona

[tsukinokawa]

congrats @velocirapture 

congrats to cherin as well I hope this delivery will be safe specially given with erin's disease (can someone btw educate what is the name of her clotting disease?) 

 

[PennySycamore]

Congratulations, Velocirapture!  I hope these first months are kind to your digestive system and that the rest of the pregnancy is a breeze.

[Lovebug]

Honestly, folks - the size of Chad and Erin's little 'ole full size bed?  I do believe she may have just woken up pregnant.  That proximity, though...

[actuallyjessica]

Maybe it's so small so they have no choice but for Erin to be on top of Chad as they sleep.

[VelociRapture]

32 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Velocirapture, congrats on the future little scaly blessing! Promise us you won't name it Spurgeon/Spurgeona

I was thinking BinBoob Hippie Jesus for a boy and Jelyssa Dill Pickle for a girl actually... But now that you mentioned Spurgeon, I may need to rethink this. 

 

21 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

Congratulations, Velocirapture!  I hope these first months are kind to your digestive system and that the rest of the pregnancy is a breeze.

Thanks! I'm only around 3 weeks, so no real symptoms yet other then needing to pee constantly. I did spit out some of my nachos yesterday though because I got nauseous - which is why I took a test. I never willingly turn down nachos!

[PennySycamore]

@VelociRapture, some mild nausea is actually supposed to be good.  It's the unrelenting, can't-keep-anything-down for months that is the pits.