Bates Family Part 10

[nokidsmom]

@VelociRapture Congratulations to you and Mr. VR!

[elliha]

I agree that you can be surprised even if you didn't use birth control. My sister got pregnant when her oldest was 8-9 months. They had sex without a condom but as her periods were not back and she had felt no indication of them returning she thought she was safe. It was just one time but as we all know that is all it takes. They were totally surprised and hardly believed the result when she tested positive. This might have been the case with Erin and Chad or they might even have tried to avoid it through NFP but that is hard before the first period but it can work if you are comfortable with your body and know the signs (I have always kept track of my ovulation despite never using it as birth control but I could probably do it if necessary). I say what I have said before, I sincerely hope she will consider using protection after this one or at least combine several methods of NFP to maximize the efficiency. If she is dead against hormones condoms are absolutely fine. Me and my husband have always used them and they work very well as long as you actually put them on every single time. 

[HarryPotterFan]

Congrats on the scaly blessing,@VelociRapture! 

[formergothardite]

Lawson needs to keep talking because he is making them all look bad. I'm not sure when Gil actually joined the BoD, but he was on the Advisory Board before that. And the claim that he had no idea of any of these accusations until two years ago is a bit hard to believe since Recovering Grace started in 2011 and the rumors had been going around well before then. Virtually impossible Gi was unaware until two years ago. Lawson also seems to be trying to make it clear that Erin wasn't speaking of IBLP, just Gothard and any current Gothard ministry. What she actually means I'm not really sure. It could be that she worded it so vaguely because she doesn't want to come out and say "Our parents are deeply involved in a dangerous belief system that we want nothing to do with" or it could be that she actually mean that she still stands with IBLP, but she wants people to stop asking so she gave the impression that she might not be. 

 

[grandmadugger]

5 hours ago, singsingsing said:

You can be a fundamentalist and still reject IBLP/ATI. Plenty of fundamentalists have totally rejected Gothard for a long time (Anna Duggar's sister Esther is married to one of them, for example). Someone in this thread said the Duggars have tried to claim that they're not associated with ATI. I don't know if that's true, but I do know that they've definitely claimed that they're not quiverfull and that they don't even know what quiverfull is, which is clearly bullshit. 

Even if Erin were to come out and say that she and Chad 'strongly reject' and 'totally disagree with' IBLP/ATI/Gothard, it would mean nothing in terms of whether or not they're still fundamentalists.

All I'm saying is, maybe don't be so eager to believe that they're on their way out of fundamentalism just because they're rejecting Gothard or wearing pants or letting their kids watch Winnie the Pooh. Remember how convinced everyone was that Jill was going to at least go fundie lite when she was courting Derick? I know we all hope these people will leave fundamentalism, and I'm sure some of them will, but I think it's a bit too soon to break out the champagne.

 

I don't think we have enough information to say either way.  I certainly don't think it will be a sudden shift.  I know I have hope that some of them will make the break.  And I hold hope in the little things like "We do not support or encourage" and hope more of those little things add up to a full break.  Just like I won't hold the fact Cherin had a cake for Gothard at their wedding, it wasn't 3 weeks ago it was 3 years ago.  I guess my real issue is, so many talk about the kids making a break but refuse to see differences in them because of their parents.

ETA: Congrats @VelociRapture please rethink any baby names based off of your reading here.  

[nelliebelle1197]

@habert totally sorry! I get confused because Whitney got pregnant about 15 minutes after the ceremony. Duh.

[RosyDaisy]

@VelociRapture, Congratulations!

[Kak]

5 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Perhaps you didn't read where I mentioned I have lurked for quite some time before deciding to post. 

The gravitas of lurkdom. Too funny.

[PracticeMakesProgress]

@VelociRapture, congratulations! Wishing you a very smooth and enjoyable pregnancy 

I'll agree with you, too. My husband and I tried over a year, just started going to the RE, I tracked and tested the whole time, and didn't move for 30 min. after each fellowship, and practically did headstands, and all that crazy business...and I nearly shit my pants when I saw a positive test result. Of course, we had been discouraged by the doc, but that's his job, to be realistic...

The point of that TMI (but since they're discussing colonoscopies and pap smears in the Josh Duggar topic, I feel OK) is to say a couple who has had practically no sex education, faced three miscarriages, a difficult pregnancy and life-threatening delivery may have just assumed it couldn't happen, or at least that fast. After all, they believe God is the micro-manager of fertility, and surely would intervene if it weren't "right." 

Even after seeing an actual OB/GYN and delivering in an actual hospital, that's a lot of years of misinformation to simply un-do. And after she finally felt somewhat normal following the experience of childbirth and the exhaustion of being a first-time mom, maybe they didn't take the time to read the internet, or the office pamphlets, or actually practice with a condom. With Erin's clotting disorder, even if she would take a pill, to my knowledge, she would be limited to progesterone ONLY (breastfeeding or not), which has to be taken at almost the exact same time everyday. With a 4-month old myself now, good luck doing ANYTHING at the exact same time everyday. An IUD would be discouraged if they did want any more children within a 5 year span of time, too. So, that leaves NFP, which can work, but requires quite a few months of practice tracking, just to learn your cycle. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, though I still believe it's a little reckless. If a third blessing shows up this way, Chad loses his official position as "husband I'd go fundie for"...

 

[Dandruff]

It's interesting to see how "well" Zach is turning out, in comparison to Josh D.  As firstborn sons in these two particular families, I expect that many of the expectations have been similar (role model and leader to the younger kids), and that both got the brunt of cult discipline early on.  I'm sure that a lot of the differences between the two are nature vs. nurture but wonder how much of it is parenting.  I'm no fan of the Bates parents, particularly Gil (see my recent posts re. Judson), yet they have an oldest son who appears completely devoted to his family, has a solid work ethic, and has managed to depart a bit from family expectations (e.g., initial relationship with Whitney) without traumatizing child and adult females or having the police/CFS brought in.  I don't know that I'm giving anyone credit here, since I'm basically pointing out that Zach's behavior is normal while Josh's isn't, yet there's enough in common between the families to wonder at the divergence in the behavior of the oldest boys.

[Exjw2015deed]

Question, what does gothard actually say about miscarriages? I hope it isn't something crazy, like proof of sin. It may or may not influence Erin and chads opinion of gothard. And I don't get how anyone follows anything that mans ministry says. He has wild interpretations of he bible. 

[singsingsing]

I think a lot of Josh Duggar's problems might be nature. I feel a little bad saying that, because I'm not a fan of reducing people to their genetic makeup, and I strongly believe that nurture contributed, but yeah... some people just have issues, no matter how well they were raised. I know my sister and I were raised pretty much exactly the same way, by the same people, we're only two years apart in age, but we're completely different people.

[nastyhobbitses]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think a lot of Josh Duggar's problems might be nature. I feel a little bad saying that, because I'm not a fan of reducing people to their genetic makeup, and I strongly believe that nurture contributed, but yeah... some people just have issues, no matter how well they were raised. I know my sister and I were raised pretty much exactly the same way, by the same people, we're only two years apart in age, but we're completely different people.

I hold to my theory that Josh is a sociopath and his upbringing just made it worse.

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think a lot of Josh Duggar's problems might be nature. I feel a little bad saying that, because I'm not a fan of reducing people to their genetic makeup, and I strongly believe that nurture contributed, but yeah... some people just have issues, no matter how well they were raised. I know my sister and I were raised pretty much exactly the same way, by the same people, we're only two years apart in age, but we're completely different people.

I agree. I think Josh would have had problems in any home he was raised in, but a fundamental IBLP family probably made it worse. If he had been in the Bates home he most likely would have behaved in the same way and they probably would have handled it in exactly the same way, so I don't think he turning out this bad while Zach didn't is evidence that Gil and Kelly are better parents. Zach probably wouldn't have turned out like Josh if he had been raised in the Duggar home. 

If he had been raised in a normal home and had received help the moment he started showing problems, he could have turned out to be a different adult, but I don't ever think he would have been happy as a husband to a large family. 

 

[grandmadugger]

23 minutes ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Question, what does gothard actually say about miscarriages? I hope it isn't something crazy, like proof of sin. It may or may not influence Erin and chads opinion of gothard. And I don't get how anyone follows anything that mans ministry says. He has wild interpretations of he bible. 

Miscarriages are a result of the sins of the mother.  Those teaching is what made me feel so bad for Erin, she'd been raised that it was all her fault she miscarried.

[elliha]

12 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

It's interesting to see how "well" Zach is turning out, in comparison to Josh D.  As firstborn sons in these two particular families, I expect that many of the expectations have been similar (role model and leader to the younger kids), and that both got the brunt of cult discipline early on.  I'm sure that a lot of the differences between the two are nature vs. nurture but wonder how much of it is parenting.  I'm no fan of the Bates parents, particularly Gil (see my recent posts re. Judson), yet they have an oldest son who appears completely devoted to his family, has a solid work ethic, and has managed to depart a bit from family expectations (e.g., initial relationship with Whitney) without traumatizing child and adult females or having the police/CFS brought in.  I don't know that I'm giving anyone credit here, since I'm basically pointing out that Zach's behavior is normal while Josh's isn't, yet there's enough in common between the families to wonder at the divergence in the behavior of the oldest boys.

It is almost impossible to perfectly implement instructions for parenting coming from a book. Some things just will not work and you give up, you discover other things that work better and what things that work for you. Even if they say they used the same book the practical parenting could have been very different. Even if it wasn't, even small things can make huge differences in a child's life. I remember reading about the Romanian ophanages during Ceausescu. The children were treated absolutely horribly while the dictator lived in a palace with golden taps. The staff was extremely disengaged and while the children were fed they were rarely interacted with and suffered terrible harm from this. Still, in some orphanages they noticed that children placed by the door survived at a much higher rate. Why? Probably because they got an extra smile, slightly more eye contact and perhaps a stroke on the head once in awhile. Anything the Duggars or the Bates did when it comes to parenting was nowhere what these children suffered and such minimal changes in treatment still played in. Even tiny differences in how they handled their kids could have made a huge difference.

With that said, I have always thought that the Bates parents seems to speak to their children in a more personal and natural way and I think this does tons of differences regardless of To Train Up a Child and other horror stories of parenting books.

[Thorns]

41 minutes ago, PracticeMakesProgress said:

Even after seeing an actual OB/GYN and delivering in an actual hospital, that's a lot of years of misinformation to simply un-do. And after she finally felt somewhat normal following the experience of childbirth and the exhaustion of being a first-time mom, maybe they didn't take the time to read the internet, or the office pamphlets, or actually practice with a condom. With Erin's clotting disorder, even if she would take a pill, to my knowledge, she would be limited to progesterone ONLY (breastfeeding or not), which has to be taken at almost the exact same time everyday. With a 4-month old myself now, good luck doing ANYTHING at the exact same time everyday. An IUD would be discouraged if they did want any more children within a 5 year span of time, too.

Progesterone only contraceptives is available in forms that have a 12 hour "window", at least here in Europe  

[vienna]

4 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

I think, out of all the married Bates kids, Zach seems to be the one who is showing the strongest signs of moving away from his parents' beliefs. 

1. He decided to date Whitney instead of doing a courtship. 

2. He dated someone outside of the cult, who had a job and was pursuing a medical coding degree of some kind. 

3. He and Whitney don't attend homechurch with the Bates family. 

4. Zach said he's going to let his child watch some mainstream TV. 

5. He got a job working for someone else, where he not only had to train but will continue to have to work with and for people who do no share his family's beliefs. He might even have to (GASP) work with or for a woman. 

Those are hugs changes for a person to make in the span of less than 3 years. 

There are a lot of other things that remain to be seen (whether they will homeschool, if they're going to have 20 kids, if they're going to make the older kids raise the younger ones) - but I'm seeing some hopeful signs that he's slowly moving away from his parents beliefs. Who knows how far he'll move away from those beliefs, but I think there's a good chance that he will be capable of reevaluating other aspects of his parents beliefs in the coming years. 

Don´t forget: Zach and Whitney kissed before the were married.... (!!)

[diplomat]

28 minutes ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Question, what does gothard actually say about miscarriages? I hope it isn't something crazy, like proof of sin.

3 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

Miscarriages are a result of the sins of the mother.  Those teaching is what made me feel so bad for Erin, she'd been raised that it was all her fault she miscarried.

That is definitely one of Gothard's explanations for miscarriage: sin. But he eventually conceded that there may also be physical or scientific reasons for a miscarriage. If I recall correctly, one of his "Basic Care" bulletins said that some miscarriages resulted from too much chlorine in the water.

The core idea, of course, was that it was still the mother's fault -- either because she had committed sin or because she had an "inhospitable womb" or because she hadn't taken the necessary precautions regarding her environment before becoming pregnant. 

[lascuba]

2 minutes ago, vienna said:

Don´t forget: Zach and Whitney kissed before the were married.... (!!)

And then confessed and apologized for it to Kelly and Gil, swearing up and down that they "would never, ever encourage it."

And didn't Whitney completely drop her adopted parents after being counselled by Kelly to do so in favor of her birth parents?

[formergothardite]

16 minutes ago, elliha said:

Anything the Duggars or the Bates did when it comes to parenting was nowhere what these children suffered and such minimal changes in treatment still played in. Even tiny differences in how they handled their kids could have made a huge difference.

I have often wondered if the difference is that the Duggars were able to exploit their children on television long before the Bates were. Reality TV is not a healthy environment to be raised in and I really think it does something to the kids whose childhoods are sold as entertainment. 

Does anyone think Lawson would be acting like he is if he hadn't become a minor reality tv star? I doubt it. He would probably be working long hours at his lawn business and maybe even thinking about moving out and starting his own life. The Duggar were pushed into an even brighter spotlight when they were teens. Their whole identities were created around being reality television stars.  Is it any wonder none of them have turned out too great? 

[RoseWilder]

I think if they weren't on TV, Lawson would probably still have an obnoxious, know-it-all, attention-seeking personality. I'm not sure being on TV made him like that, it probably just enabled the bad qualities that were already there. So, no, I don't think it helped him to be on TV, but he was probably kind of a jerk before as well. 

[PracticeMakesProgress]

33 minutes ago, Thorns said:

Progesterone only contraceptives is available in forms that have a 12 hour "window", at least here in Europe  

The kind offered by my doc after my son was born has a 3-hour window. That would be fine for me, but I am mega-obsessive about that kind of stuff. For most of my friends, STRICT use of birth control is a more difficult concept. Despite much warning, a perfectly smart friend of mine was convinced breast feeding was birth control enough. She has two babies exactly a year apart, and the first one was a great "surprise," too. 

Some people use birth control, and some people actually use it to prescribed, 99.9% standards. Since a lot of "regular" people are in the first group, doesn't shock me at all that any fundie couple even trying to space out children wouldn't quite ace it...

[elliha]

1 hour ago, RoseWilder said:

I think if they weren't on TV, Lawson would probably still have an obnoxious, know-it-all, attention-seeking personality. I'm not sure being on TV made him like that, it probably just enabled the bad qualities that were already there. So, no, I don't think it helped him to be on TV, but he was probably kind of a jerk before as well. 

Agree, I think we just wouldn't have had a clue about. He is very much like many guys I knew around 20-25. I still have hope he will grow out of it and that is not a permanent trait, most of the guys I knew did and became normal productive people.

[RosyDaisy]

As my oldest niece just said: "Lawson is an arrogant asshole".