Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 5

[patsymae]

I totally understand why Anna hasn't left, don't blame the victims in any of these situations. But posting the whole adoring movie thing? That's what got me. I understand it a bit better though, now, thanks to the poster (sorry not able to scroll back and get name) who talked about jumping into embracing the faith in a crisis. I don't want to judge Anna, or any woman in an impossible situation, especially because I was one, but then I wish she wouldn't do things like promote that dreadful movie and its horrific philosophy. Although now I can see it in a little different perspective.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Where will they live? I thought adultery was grounds for divorce in thir cult, or is that only if the woman strays? Anna said something about turning a mess into a disaster, but she didn't explain those terms.

If Mr. Wolf cheated on me, he would find a very cold bed.

It doesn't matter what the bible says about divorce, it matters what Gothard says about divorce. Gothard says that any man acting sexually towards a woman is the woman's fault. Gothard says that any man cheating on his wife is his wife's fault. Gothard says that anyone who turns back to Jesus and asks for forgiveness in a Gothard approved way is forgiven. Gothard says that anyone who doesn't forgive someone that Jesus forgave is a sinner and blasphemer because they see themselves as more important than Jesus.

Therefore:

• Josh cheated because women were immodest and because he found porn
• Josh cheated because Anna didn't satisfy him properly
• Josh turned to god and is involved in a program that will properly rehabilitate his sinful ways by repairing his relationship with god.
• If Anna doesn't forgive him, Anna is going to be treated like she's the devil incarnate.

58 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

As much as I'd want her to leave, everything I've seen of Anna tells me she's just gonna dive deeper into her faith. I could see Josh leaving though.  The only thing I've seen him enjoy about their faith is the ability to act better than everyone else. 

Josh isn't going to leave her. If he was going to leave her, it would have happened BEFORE baby 4. Hell, it would have happened before he signed up for AM. Anna is there for the convenience and the image (even now, he'll have the image of "reformed sinner" and all the fault is on her anyways, so it's not like he's "wicked" or whatever). His affairs are there for the thrill.

And, frankly, I doubt that anyone in their cult truly "enjoys" their faith. They believe what they're told, and that's all that matters to keeping them members. And, Josh may "struggle" a lot with his faith, but he wouldn't be in Jesus camp if he didn't believe what he was was being told.

18 minutes ago, patsymae said:

I totally understand why Anna hasn't left, don't blame the victims in any of these situations. But posting the whole adoring movie thing? That's what got me. I understand it a bit better though, now, thanks to the poster (sorry not able to scroll back and get name) who talked about jumping into embracing the faith in a crisis. I don't want to judge Anna, or any woman in an impossible situation, especially because I was one, but then I wish she wouldn't do things like promote that dreadful movie and its horrific philosophy. Although now I can see it in a little different perspective.

Anna promotes the movie and its philosophy because Anna is IN that situation. Anna is being told that she NEEDS to be like the wife in that movie. So of course that wife is going to be her hero.

[quiverofdoubt]

12 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

It doesn't matter what the bible says about divorce, it matters what Gothard says about divorce. Gothard says that any man acting sexually towards a woman is the woman's fault. Gothard says that any man cheating on his wife is his wife's fault. Gothard says that anyone who turns back to Jesus and asks for forgiveness in a Gothard approved way is forgiven. Gothard says that anyone who doesn't forgive someone that Jesus forgave is a sinner and blasphemer because they see themselves as more important than Jesus.

Therefore:

• Josh cheated because women were immodest and because he found porn
• Josh cheated because Anna didn't satisfy him properly
• Josh turned to god and is involved in a program that will properly rehabilitate his sinful ways by repairing his relationship with god.
• If Anna doesn't forgive him, Anna is going to be treated like she's the devil incarnate.

 

This, exactly! I find it easiest to simplify like this:

1) it's women's fault

2) it's the secular world's fault. actually, just the women that are part of that world. It's the women's fault.

3) God. Turn to God and everything will be good. God

4) men can in no way be responsible for their own lusts and behaviors, especially in regards to how they treat women.

5) When in doubt, it's the women's fault.

[season of life]

I have a feeling Anna is gonna kick it into high gear and immerse herself in her religion. The dynamic between her and Josh has changed for the worse (not that their relationship was built on mutual respect before). I imagine there are going to be some very uncomfortable, awkward days for them and at this point, religion may be the only thing that will convince Anna everything is going to be all right for her family. In eventual time, Josh may very well divorce her. It won't be anytime this year, but perhaps when the kids are older, Josh will decide to get out of his marriage the legal way.

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

Josh isn't going to leave her. If he was going to leave her, it would have happened BEFORE baby 4. Hell, it would have happened before he signed up for AM. Anna is there for the convenience and the image (even now, he'll have the image of "reformed sinner" and all the fault is on her anyways, so it's not like he's "wicked" or whatever). His affairs are there for the thrill.

Like many "good Christian men" throughout time, Josh probably wants the benefits of having a "respectable" woman as a wife to have his legitimate children and take care of the house, and various "non-respectable" women on the side to fulfill his sexual desires. That's the bottom line. He wants different women in his life to perform different functions. Anna serves a particular function in his life and so do the women he cheated with. As long as he kept these two notions compartmentalized, it was fine (for Josh, at least), but now that the two have collided, I'm not sure how he'll manage. My guess is that Josh will just keep cheating, and Anna will keep forgiving. Maybe he'll end up having his own room at Jesus Rehab from having to go there so often.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

I was reading a book this evening that was talking about Jacob Astor, the millionaire; went down on the Titanic. Anyway, he caused a scandal b/c he divorced his wife of many years and married his 19 yo mistress. It said that  was different b/c it was perfectly acceptable in Victorian times for a man to stay in his marriage & have a mistress on the side.

[TuringMachine]

1 hour ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

Josh isn't going to leave her. If he was going to leave her, it would have happened BEFORE baby 4. Hell, it would have happened before he signed up for AM. Anna is there for the convenience and the image (even now, he'll have the image of "reformed sinner" and all the fault is on her anyways, so it's not like he's "wicked" or whatever). His affairs are there for the thrill.

You have a point. I guess what I'm thinking is that Josh is never going to be faithful to Anna and he's never gonna be satisfied with the Gothard way of life.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

2 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

I was reading a book this evening that was talking about Jacob Astor, the millionaire; went down on the Titanic. Anyway, he caused a scandal b/c he divorced his wife of many years and married his 19 yo mistress. It said that  was different b/c it was perfectly acceptable in Victorian times for a man to stay in his marriage & have a mistress on the side.

I'm about to make this even ickier. He started courting Madeleine at 17 and married her when she was 18. He was about 30 years older than her. To quote Rose from Titanic, "Quite the scandal."

[patsymae]

4 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

It doesn't matter what the bible says about divorce, it matters what Gothard says about divorce. Gothard says that any man acting sexually towards a woman is the woman's fault. Gothard says that any man cheating on his wife is his wife's fault. Gothard says that anyone who turns back to Jesus and asks for forgiveness in a Gothard approved way is forgiven. Gothard says that anyone who doesn't forgive someone that Jesus forgave is a sinner and blasphemer because they see themselves as more important than Jesus.

Therefore:

• Josh cheated because women were immodest and because he found porn
• Josh cheated because Anna didn't satisfy him properly
• Josh turned to god and is involved in a program that will properly rehabilitate his sinful ways by repairing his relationship with god.
• If Anna doesn't forgive him, Anna is going to be treated like she's the devil incarnate.

Josh isn't going to leave her. If he was going to leave her, it would have happened BEFORE baby 4. Hell, it would have happened before he signed up for AM. Anna is there for the convenience and the image (even now, he'll have the image of "reformed sinner" and all the fault is on her anyways, so it's not like he's "wicked" or whatever). His affairs are there for the thrill.

And, frankly, I doubt that anyone in their cult truly "enjoys" their faith. They believe what they're told, and that's all that matters to keeping them members. And, Josh may "struggle" a lot with his faith, but he wouldn't be in Jesus camp if he didn't believe what he was was being told.

Anna promotes the movie and its philosophy because Anna is IN that situation. Anna is being told that she NEEDS to be like the wife in that movie. So of course that wife is going to be her hero.

And this duggarfamilyblog.com/2016/02/anna-and-michelle-at-fervent-tour.html

[MyMilkshake]

Martyr mode activated. 

[SpurgeonSquarepants]

2 hours ago, CreationMuseumSeasonPass said:

I'm about to make this even ickier. He started courting Madeleine at 17 and married her when she was 18. He was about 30 years older than her. To quote Rose from Titanic, "Quite the scandal."

LoL, y'all are killing me. I'm watching Titanic right now!

[Bad Wolf]

Anna thinks that the movie is like real life. If she prays hard enough all will be well. I'm afraid she will be disappointed. Another example of how their isolation affects their thinking.

[3KidsAndStopped]

I remember watching the episode when Anna had Mackenzie and I thought there was genuine love from Josh towards her, not like the engagement or even wedding episodes. But I've never noticed it since. Mind you when you look at the role models he's had.. JB and Michelle  have no problem with PDAs but it all seems for show. 

I feel sorry for both of them in that sense. They have never and probably will never know the beauty of a free and equal relationship in life.

[nastyhobbitses]

10 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

I was reading a book this evening that was talking about Jacob Astor, the millionaire; went down on the Titanic. Anyway, he caused a scandal b/c he divorced his wife of many years and married his 19 yo mistress. It said that  was different b/c it was perfectly acceptable in Victorian times for a man to stay in his marriage & have a mistress on the side.

That was very normal for a lot of wealthy and powerful men for a very long time. Your wife is there to give you a legitimate heir, your mistress is for fun/genuine affection. Heck, many kings were considered weird if they didn't have an official mistress/actually loved their queen consort (as you can imagine, political or money marriages rarely if ever involved love or even basic compatibility). I read somewhere that it was the rise of the Victorian cult of domesticity that made the mistress far less socially acceptable in the upper echelons of society.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

8 hours ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I remember watching the episode when Anna had Mackenzie and I thought there was genuine love from Josh towards her, not like the engagement or even wedding episodes. But I've never noticed it since. Mind you when you look at the role models he's had.. JB and Michelle  have no problem with PDAs but it all seems for show. 

I feel sorry for both of them in that sense. They have never and probably will never know the beauty of a free and equal relationship in life.

Free and equal nothing. They're never going to actually experience love. Honestly, I'd be really surprised if any of the married Duggars do. They experienced lust, at best, and were expected to turn that lust into love. I imagine that their relationships will all ultimately fail, even if it doesn't end with cheating or divorce. They're all going to be miserable when they realize that they married just so they could have sex.

[MotherOfDragons]

Here we go; this made me think of y'all. 

[vaticanmember]

On 20.2.2016 at 1:45 AM, Cleopatra7 said:

Like many "good Christian men" throughout time, Josh probably wants the benefits of having a "respectable" woman as a wife to have his legitimate children and take care of the house, and various "non-respectable" women on the side to fulfill his sexual desires. That's the bottom line. He wants different women in his life to perform different functions. Anna serves a particular function in his life and so do the women he cheated with. As long as he kept these two notions compartmentalized, it was fine (for Josh, at least), but now that the two have collided, I'm not sure how he'll manage. My guess is that Josh will just keep cheating, and Anna will keep forgiving. Maybe he'll end up having his own room at Jesus Rehab from having to go there so often.

Exactly, in situations where women are treated as products or goods that is what happens and never the other way round. Like kitchen appliances for different tasks. It would be so strange the other way round because as soon as those women/girls get married they are not seen as someone who can have difficulties with this lifestyle. Is there such a thing as Jesus-therapy for married women in their cult? Could she go away for 6 months to "heal", like Josh did? Can you imagine her saying: "I made huge mistake, I cheated on you, so I'll leave our children to stay with you and go away for 6 months to a camp, with other  women, to talk about it. But when I'll be back I expect you have forgiven me and I want sex immidiately. See you , honey!" I suspect no because that would mean that the husband will loose his most valuable kitchen and bedroom appliance. I can see Anna having a meltdown in front of Josh and him thinking: Why is she not functioning? I thought God built her from Adam's rip so she has to be content and has to function, right? She must be possessed..."

[foreign fundie]

If there was fundie jail for women, I am sure they'd have to take the kids. Still, for many of these women it would be a holiday. At least no man around that needs pleasing in any way. 

And that is maybe why there is no fundie jail for women. They'd cheat to get in...

[Cleopatra7]

2 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

If there was fundie jail for women, I am sure they'd have to take the kids. Still, for many of these women it would be a holiday. At least no man around that needs pleasing in any way. 

And that is maybe why there is no fundie jail for women. They'd cheat to get in...

Doesn't RU have a "ladies" program? I'm recalling that a number of posters commented how problematic it was that sexual abuse survivors and sexual abuse perpetrators were being treated in the same facility, even if it was sex segregated. In any case, Jesus Rehab has nothing to tell Anna other than submit more, which is already the message her parents and in-laws are giving her.

[ksgranola1]

2 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

If there was fundie jail for women, I am sure they'd have to take the kids. Still, for many of these women it would be a holiday. At least no man around that needs pleasing in any way. 

And that is maybe why there is no fundie jail for women. They'd cheat to get in...

"Cheat to get in"

Hilarious.

[socalrules]

Isn't a fundy marriage already a fundy jail for many of these women? If you don't have a say in how you live your day to day life, your body, your marriage, raise your children or someone tells you what to do for everything, aren't you already in jail? 

[vaticanmember]

2 hours ago, socalrules said:

Isn't a fundy marriage already a fundy jail for many of these women? If you don't have a say in how you live your day to day life, your body, your marriage, raise your children or someone tells you what to do for everything, aren't you already in jail? 

Sounds more like slavery than jail to me. selling off to the highest bitter meaning: who is most like daddy and answers the questions right. plus: they are forced to work at home, and forced to have children non stop. and if you get a breakdown from all of this than it's your own fault and you need to pray more. you won't get the medical or phsychological help you need. at least in prison you can get psychological help (afaik).

[quiverofdoubt]

41 minutes ago, vaticanmember said:

Sounds more like slavery than jail to me. selling off to the highest bitter meaning: who is most like daddy and answers the questions right. plus: they are forced to work at home, and forced to have children non stop. and if you get a breakdown from all of this than it's your own fault and you need to pray more. you won't get the medical or phsychological help you need. at least in prison you can get psychological help (afaik).

 I agree. For fundy women the life is a lot more like slavery with driving privileges then jail. I guess they get to get out and go shopping once in awhile. but that seems to be the highlight of their life.  At least in jail other people cook your meals and clean up after. and there's no children or husbands to tend to. Or all the laundry. And if you are cooking or cleaning or doing other jobs they pay you.  It's a pittance, but it's not 100% slavery. 

[ksgranola1]

4 hours ago, socalrules said:

Isn't a fundy marriage already a fundy jail for many of these women? If you don't have a say in how you live your day to day life, your body, your marriage, raise your children or someone tells you what to do for everything, aren't you already in jail? 

Shhh. They don't know it yet.

[HarryPotterFan]

Now I'm imagining a fundie woman committing a crime so she can go to jail on vacation...