Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 5

[Whoosh]

I was going to simply let this go, but I can not.  I am going to state first, last, and in the middle that I am in no way faulting Jeffery Dahmer's parents for what transpired with their son once he reached adulthood. Yet, it is patently false to try to say that he grew up in a "nice family", which seems to be defined earlier in this thread as "two parents, still married" (how absurdly ignorant and offensive to so many).  While the issues that were clear and present in Dahmer's home life as a child were nothing outrageously extreme and I AM NOT PLACING BLAME ON HIS PARENTS, there was stuff going on there that would raise the eyebrows of a psychologist or child development specialist or lots of other reasonable people.  Does that mean Jeffery's parents were horrible people?  NO.  Most people are just people - doing their best, but flawed nonetheless.  

In an ideal world, Jeffery would have gotten intense help starting early on (his father has noted there were issues by age 4 if not earlier) and if it was clear that he was a horrendous danger to society he would have been monitored or locked away somewhere.  That didn't happen because we don't live in a perfect world.  Ideally, someone would have noticed that he was drinking morning, noon, and night by the age of 14 or so.  Ideally, someone would have been on the ball enough to at least realize that by the time he graduated from high school, everyone in his family had moved out of the house leaving him alone.  Ideally, he would not have been sexually molested at around age 8 and ideally that would have been reported to the proper authorities when it DID happen (the world is not ideal).  Ideally, he would have been brought to a qualified mental health professional when he developed an interest in playing with dead animals fairly early on.  Ideally, he would not have had to feel shame about being attracted to men and that would not have been a difficult issue.  The list goes on and on.

There is a lot more that could be said, but I will not say anything further as I AM NOT SAYING Jeffery Dahmer's parents should be held responsible for what their child became and I really feel they have faced far more than they possibly could have deserved based on what I know of them.  Everyone reading here has google.  It just really rubs me the wrong way to see someone say that he came from a "nice family" with "two parents, still married" like that means jack shit.

And I should not say this last part because it doesn't matter worth a shit - but his father moved out of the family home before Jeffery graduated from high school and his mother took off with his only sibling soon after Jeffery turned 18.  In other words, in 1978, Jeffery's father left the family home, Jeffery turned 18 and graduated from high school in May, and his mother and brother took off very soon after.  Within three weeks of his HS graduation, Jeffery lured his first victim back to the otherwise vacant family home and the horrors began in earnest.  

So, while it doesn't fucking matter, the statement about a "nice family" with "two parents, still married" isn't even technically true.  In closing, I AM NOT BLAMING MR AND MRS DAHMER for the horrific acts committed by their son, but people shouldn't make shit up about his childhood or present it in a totally false light, either.  And married, two parent homes are not the fucking end-all, be-all.

*The sexual abuse at age 8 was reported by Jeffery's father, but I don't believe it has ever been confirmed beyond that.  It's hard to confirm later when it isn't reported, etc.

[vaticanmember]

Honestly I do think that Josh definately has a lack of empathy no matter what people he is interacting with. And in addition to that a hatred for women because they are always portrayed as the evil ones.

I don't think he is sorry for cheating on Anna, but I do think that he feels sorry for molesting 5 small girls, not because they were girls, of course,, but because they were children/his siblings. I do give him that. If he weren't sorry for molesting the children he would be a true psychopath which I hope he is not! Let's hope he is just a chauvinist who hates women. that would be bad enough.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

Whoosh, I would think twice before calling anyone, especially someone you don't know, "ignorant and offensive" in your as usual, verbose postings.

[NotAnIncubator]

2 hours ago, vaticanmember said:

Honestly I do think that Josh definately has a lack of empathy no matter what people he is interacting with. And in addition to that a hatred for women because they are always portrayed as the evil ones.

I don't think he is sorry for cheating on Anna, but I do think that he feels sorry for molesting 5 small girls, not because they were girls, of course,, but because they were children/his siblings. I do give him that. If he weren't sorry for molesting the children he would be a true psychopath which I hope he is not! Let's hope he is just a chauvinist who hates women. that would be bad enough.

He did make an off the wall remark during 17kac about dating his sisters and he said 'well this is Arkansas' and laughed heartily. What maybe a year or two after his first stint in Jesus jail. That tells me he finds no problem with his actions. He takes advantage of those weaker than him and laughs about it. Pure Sociopath

He could only pretend to be a good brother for so long. Now his true colors show again.

[EmCatlyn]

39 minutes ago, NotAnIncubator said:

He did make an off the wall remark during 17kac about dating his sisters and he said 'well this is Arkansas' and laughed heartily. What maybe a year or two after his first stint in Jesus jail. That tells me he finds no problem with his actions. He takes advantage of those weaker than him and laughs about it. Pure Sociopath

He could only pretend to be a good brother for so long. Now his true colors show again.

You may be right.  On the other hand, I suspect that in his (and his family's) mind(s) there is not much relationship between whatever he did to his sisters and " dating."  I wouldn't be surprised if the joke about dating sisters and Arkansas was scripted for him by TLC.  (As sheltered and ignorant as those kids are, how likely is it that he would be familiar with "Southern inbreeding" jokes? )

I will also say that people often make jokes about the things that make them uncomfortable in order to disguise their discomfort. This isn't to defend Josh. I think he behaves like a narcissist. I think he is selfish and clearly has poor impulse control.  I think he is not only a hypocrite but a coward.  I am not sure, though, that he is incapable of feeling remorse as well as regret.  It doesn't change his actions or the hurt he causes, but maybe he doesn't like what he has done any more than we do. 

[Trynn]

I dunno man, the fact that in his apology he talked about how his actions hurt him and the lord, then said nothing at all about how it hurt his victims...

He may feel remorse, but does he feel remorseful about those who he hurt, or does he feel remorseful about the consequences?

The way his apology is worded doesn't bode well.

[vaticanmember]

1 hour ago, NotAnIncubator said:

He did make an off the wall remark during 17kac about dating his sisters and he said 'well this is Arkansas' and laughed heartily. What maybe a year or two after his first stint in Jesus jail. That tells me he finds no problem with his actions. He takes advantage of those weaker than him and laughs about it. Pure Sociopath

He could only pretend to be a good brother for so long. Now his true colors show again.

Yes! I totally forgot about that but now I remember. It was when he and Anna went out with Jana and JD. The fact that he is joking about it is sickening. This cult is an abomination!

[umsami]

15 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I do not remember reading in my psych text books that a boy children born to prostitutes become horrible, douchey scumbaggy people actually. Maybe I missed that chapter?  It's more a stereotype law and order and similar shows use. Not real life. 

I wrote a shortened version of why i think josh turned out the way he did, and I could do a super super long version. Instead I'll say I agree with @patsymae, and add that the gothard raised kids are set up for huge moral failures. The fact that more of the adult kids don't have similar problems is a testament to the goodness of human spirit, and the resilience of people.

I'll add!

• raising children to ignore any internal sense of right and wrong by demanding total and complete and instant obedience 
• treating the female body as nothing but a sex/baby making object, forever linking the human body to the act of sex and nothing else
• shrouding sex and sexuality and the body in mystery and fear, and using only codewords to describe those things
• refusing any legitimate sexual education
• teaching your children than any sexual desires, feelings or sensations are unnatural and sinful unless you are married
• refusing to allow any normal or natural relationships to develop between your teenage children and people outside the home, including experimentation with dating/touching etc
• teaching your children that the "natural order" is jesus, husband, wife, children

Growing up with a sex worker/prostitute for a mother isn't indicative of anything in terms of long term outcomes for young men. Unless you count that that line of work is more highly correlated with poverty, which has a large impact on children.

And let's not forget watching your Dad fulfill his sexual needs with your Mom whenever the heck he wants.... and her not saying a thing... 'cause that's how men are (their beliefs, not mine).

[quiverofdoubt]

2 minutes ago, umsami said:

And let's not forget watching your Dad fulfill his sexual needs with your Mom whenever the heck he wants.... and her not saying a thing... 'cause that's how men are (their beliefs, not mine).

Oh yeah! totally forgot to add the inappropriate and VERY public displays by his parents. and the lack of boundaries michelle seems to have. seriously, your kids don't need you sharing their private feelings, moments and embarrassments to the entire world.  Talk about confused boundary issues for those kids! Sex and lust and women's shoulders = evil sins.  Parents dry humping on national tv = god's work

[socalrules]

Random thought. So if the boys are sleeping in their clothes, does that mean they are wearing the same thing for a few days in a row? Would anyone even notice? 

[19 cats and counting]

I honestly don't understand the lust of women's shoulders.  I mean modern fashion does not exactly leave the shape of the shoulders to the imagination. (The 80s were an exception to this rule).

[2manyKidzzz]

I just never liked Josh from the minute I first saw him. It was his attitude. 

[choralcrusader8613]

1 hour ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I honestly don't understand the lust of women's shoulders.  I mean modern fashion does not exactly leave the shape of the shoulders to the imagination. (The 80s were an exception to this rule).

It's probably not the shoulders themselves, but the potential of showing bra straps. They were probably too uncomfortable to be frank about it (hilarious, given their inappropriate sexual behavior all over the place, but whatever).

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Oh yeah! totally forgot to add the inappropriate and VERY public displays by his parents. and the lack of boundaries michelle seems to have. seriously, your kids don't need you sharing their private feelings, moments and embarrassments to the entire world.  Talk about confused boundary issues for those kids! Sex and lust and women's shoulders = evil sins.  Parents dry humping on national tv = god's work

Yeah, I don't know why anyone would expect kids raised in a household where "dancing, wearing tank tops, and having physical contact with a non-family member will turn you into a dirty whore" and "let's punctuate our interactions with our children by aggressively making out in front of them, dry-humping in front of them, and allowing our daughters to track Michelle's fertility cycles" went hand in hand to have healthy attitudes about sex and sexuality. They spent their lives being taught that everything is sexual, and hypersexual behavior as a way to display dominance. Didn't JB taunt "you can't do this yet" as he humped Michelle like a horny Chihuahua in front of his own daughter and future son-in-law?

[quiverofdoubt]

3 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Yeah, I don't know why anyone would expect kids raised in a household where "dancing, wearing tank tops, and having physical contact with a non-family member will turn you into a dirty whore" and "let's punctuate our interactions with our children by aggressively making out in front of them, dry-humping in front of them, and allowing our daughters to track Michelle's fertility cycles" went hand in hand to have healthy attitudes about sex and sexuality. They spent their lives being taught that everything is sexual, and hypersexual behavior as a way to display dominance. Didn't JB taunt "you can't do this yet" as he humped Michelle like a horny Chihuahua in front of his own daughter and future son-in-law?

And this tells us so so much about the family right there. What is marriage for? what is it about? celebrating love and life long commitment to a partner you hold dear? no. Someone to share your life, hardships, victories with? nope.  Someone to help raise children with? sort of.  not really, as she'll do all the raising till the oldest can do it.  Is it about reducing financial strain? no.  Sex. It's about sex, and tons of it. And using it as a tool to dominate your wife and make everyone else uncomfortable.  That is what marriage is for.

It tells us something else too: jb and michelle talk on and on about how one of the best things you can do for your children is have a good relationship with their parent. And this is actually very true. Onne of the best things for a kid's future and even their grades and life outcome is to see their parents in a loving, respectful, healthy relationship.  But somehow jb and michelle took those studies and twisted them to mean "let your kids see massive amounts of pda".  Not. Quite. the same.  Just another study/teaching/book passage they've misinterpreted and misuse. 

[Hera]

I think JB just never really moved beyond the insecure boy he was as a teenager, in a lot of ways, really, but particularly when it comes to sex and romantic relationships.  He preens because he married the pretty cheerleader, but is still - some 19 kids and 30 years later - perturbed and jealous that she had other boyfriends and dared kiss them before him.  He trots his 19 kids around as proof of his manhood.  And, he gloats to his kids the he can have sex and they can't like he's 17 years old and bragging to his buddies in the locker room.  It's weird and sad and creepy and pathetic all at once.  

[sophie10130]

I think their weird sexual innuendos in the show, especially between Michelle and JB are a way for them to seem more normal and it just is not working.

They don't want the world to think they have fucked up views about sex, so they joke about it all the time in order to seem like they're "open" about it and have a good relationship about it or whatever. And some people (leghumpers) might agree. Like oh look at how the Duggars have really strict views about sex, the GOOD views about sex, but they aren't weird about it because they talk about it all the time!

[Dandruff]

If Jim Bob and Michelle were walking somewhere with their younger children, and saw a couple heavily making out, what would they do?  Check for wedding rings first or call "Nike"?  What if the couple are married, but not to each other?  What if they're married to each other but are wearing immodest clothing?  I think the Duggars' handling of issues related to sex is completely warped.

[vienna]

As much as the evolution of Josh becoming Josh and the role of JB and M played is important; the same goes for the other half that leads to an Josh/Anna Drama: The partriarchy cult. I really enjoyed this article and just wanted to post it, I hope here is the right place.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/duggar-cult-survivor-wants-you-to-meet-the-powerful-women-who-make-other-womens-lives-a-living-hell/

[gustava]

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

b and michelle took those studies and twisted them to mean "let your kids see massive amounts of pda".

Dry humping your wife isn't PDA.  It's Danica-level porn.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

And this tells us so so much about the family right there. What is marriage for? what is it about? celebrating love and life long commitment to a partner you hold dear? no. Someone to share your life, hardships, victories with? nope.  Someone to help raise children with? sort of.  not really, as she'll do all the raising till the oldest can do it.  Is it about reducing financial strain? no.  Sex. It's about sex, and tons of it. And using it as a tool to dominate your wife and make everyone else uncomfortable.  That is what marriage is for.

It tells us something else too: jb and michelle talk on and on about how one of the best things you can do for your children is have a good relationship with their parent. And this is actually very true. Onne of the best things for a kid's future and even their grades and life outcome is to see their parents in a loving, respectful, healthy relationship.  But somehow jb and michelle took those studies and twisted them to mean "let your kids see massive amounts of pda".  Not. Quite. the same.  Just another study/teaching/book passage they've misinterpreted and misuse. 

Your second paragraph is so true. I grew up in a household where my parents could be very frank about their relationship. They have a very happy marriage, but they were always honest with me and my sister about the fact that marriage isn't a fairy tale and requires work, dedication, and acceptance of another person as your teammate in life as well as a lover. Sometimes they were a bit TMI (no, mom, I really did not need to know that I was a Christmas baby ifyouknowwhatimean), but growing up seeing two people modeling a stable, healthy relationship had a big impact on my life. Jim Bob and Michelle give their children the impression that marriage is all about the physical aspect -- look at me, I get to make out with this woman and have sex with her whenever I want, she is my possession and you are simply extensions of our sexual relationship. Their marriage is about performance above all else.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On 2/19/2016 at 0:39 PM, nausicaa said:

Agreed. Embarrassing as it is to admit, if I were in Anna's place, with four little kids and no education or job skills, I'd probably hold my nose and stay with Josh, even if I were no longer religious. I wouldn't be all happy, doting wife but I'd probably try to make some sort of business partnership out of it. I have mad respect for women who step out and rebuild their lives from nothing, but I think I'd just be too scared and overwhelmed.

(Cue my rant about why women should have solid educations and job skills before getting married and having children cause you never know what will happen...)

THIS!  I don't care if you want to have 10 kids and stay home, But get some life experience first, get a job, go to college, even Community College, have the ability to have choices, do not be reliant on one person for your whole livelihood.   stayed home for 9ish years with my 2 kids, BUT I had job skills and an education (B.S.) I could have supported myself if I needed too.  

But if I had been in Anna's shoes, I would have taken my brother up on his offer at least for a time. Get away from Josh and his family, just put your toes out there just see if there was something more for you.  Not totally walk away from the marriage, but while Josh, is getting treatment get some for herself too. That is what is sad, not only is Josh getting all the help and all the relaxation, She is having to deal with his family and her own kids, and deal with publicity, weather she wants it or not, because JB wants it so she has it. 

[umsami]

5 hours ago, Dandruff said:

If Jim Bob and Michelle were walking somewhere with their younger children, and saw a couple heavily making out, what would they do?  Check for wedding rings first or call "Nike"?  What if the couple are married, but not to each other?  What if they're married to each other but are wearing immodest clothing?  I think the Duggars' handling of issues related to sex is completely warped.

Had a sudden image of Nike creating blinders or some such thing for Fundy boys.  They would be glasses with side blinders like for horses,  but if an accountability partner deemed it necessary, she could voice activate the front blinders by calling "Nike!"  Of course, the two Nike swooshes would appear over each eye.  The sides of the glasses would say, "Just don't do it!" ^TM  

This would, of course, destroy their brand worse than if Kanye designed sneakers for them.

[EmCatlyn]

7 hours ago, vienna said:

As much as the evolution of Josh becoming Josh and the role of JB and M played is important; the same goes for the other half that leads to an Josh/Anna Drama: The partriarchy cult. I really enjoyed this article and just wanted to post it, I hope here is the right place.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/duggar-cult-survivor-wants-you-to-meet-the-powerful-women-who-make-other-womens-lives-a-living-hell/

Thanks for posting this.  I particularly like the tone of such statements as "one of the leading ministries influencing Christian women to adopt bronze-age roles of rabid fecundity" and the line about "women teaching women to be submissive babymakers for Jesus."

What it says about Anna and the way the advice these women give younger women being a way to justify and give meaning to their own hardship is very good--and clearly inspired by personal experience since the author was one of those women who gave advice.

[season of life]

Josh never felt sorry for any of his victims. He probably doesn't even feel sorry he cheated on Anna and disrespected their marriage. He only regrets that he got caught BOTH times (when the redacted police report came out and when the Ashley Madison breach revealed his info).