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Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 5


Coconut Flan

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Teenage Josh new what he did was wrong. I also think Josh isn't the least bit sorry for what he did then or now. H deserves no sympathy.

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I found the quote from Debi Pearl in the Raw Story article very telling. She gives advice to abused wives. I quote:

He will hear and see her cheerful countenance. He will notice her willingness to help and forgive. He will see her giving up her rights and not taking offense when he knows he has wronged her. He will see she honors him, obeys him, treats him with respect, and serves him with a non-rebellious, non-resistant attitude. He will see her spirit is not raging outwardly in emotional fits or inwardly in silent brooding of hurt, but her spirit is quiet, restful, and peaceful. He will see she doesn’t puff up and talk incessantly in criticism of him—or others. He trusts her. He knows she is not going to discuss him with her pastor or friend. He sees she is wise with what little money he gives her. She is a remarkable woman, not because she is classy in the way she dresses or looks, but in the way she controls her spirit. She rejoices for an opportunity to bless him, and he knows her heart is good. He tries her; he deliberately tempts her into hurt or anger; he judges her unfairly; he demands things of her that he knows embarrasses her, yet she is in subjection to him in all things. And in the end, she wins him by her chaste conversation. It is a promise from God to you.

It really sounds to me like she is an expert from experience.

Of course, one cannot even begin to say all the things that are wrong with this. But the last line is an important indication of what is underlying her theory. She claims that the Bible promised a good wife not only can, but ultimately will change a violent husband. The Bible does not promise that anywhere, and could not, as freedom to sin is a corner stone of Biblical theology. A person can never convert another person if he chooses not to be converted (converted in the sense of changing his ways). 

What she advocates is not trusting in God, but quite the opposite. She tells women to trust in their super super human powers (cheerfully obeying an abusive asshole) to change their husbands. If they are good enough, they can do it. They are not even supposed to ask for help from their pastors. THEY will change him. Instead of letting their abusive husbands go and trusting God to deal with them. 

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Even when my mama and I kept sweet as best as we could, it didn't stop my dad from going on anger rampages...

Fuck Debi Pearl.

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4 minutes ago, Alicja said:

Even when my mama and I kept sweet as best as we could, it didn't stop my dad from going on anger rampages...

Fuck Debi Pearl.

So sorry you went through that. I agree with you. For a real change of heart in a person who has crossed so many boundries, more is needed than a sweet wife and daughter. Maybe jail would be a good place to start.

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Wow. Just. Wow. That woman has no right to give out marriage advice. Just. NO.  It's hard enough for victims to leave, and stay away (the average number of times a woman has to leave an abuser before it sticks is 7).  He's not going to magically change, no matter what you do. An abuser is an abuser. That "advice" is so incredibly harmful and hurtful. 

and you're right @foreign fundie it sounds like she's been and maybe is, the victim of abuse. Perhaps she's still trying to tell herself this same message, and is still hoping for permanent change.

I'm horrified that a woman in an abusive relationship may get that as her first counsel.

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Fucking fundies. I'll use their logic for a minute, which is a problematic way of basically getting at the concept that in a healthy marriage, treating someone with respect, kindness and love generally gets you treated with respect, kindness and love in turn.  Okay. That's fair. And they credit Jesus's influence in their lives for that happening. Alright. Let's go with that. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that even Fundie Jesus doesn't want your husband to abuse you. So, if he is, then obviously Jesus isn't in his heart and therefore he isn't listening to Jesus tell him not to hit you because you are a perfect little fundie wife. Thus, once your husband starts to abuse you you must get away from him. Even if you don't want a divorce, even if you want to pray that he will find Jesus again, you can't stay with him because if he isn't listening to Jesus, then doing what Jesus says to do won't protect you.  

Therefore, if anyone here is reading this and believes that all they have to do is be better and their spouse will stop abusing them, that's not how it works. Regardless of whether you believe in the power of Jesus to fix him or the power of love to change him, he's not acting according to either one and therefore nothing you do based on that belief system will work. You have to get out. 

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Talk about sick, inappropriate advice.  I'd say it's far more likely that repeat abusers will continue to hurt others who keep taking it and don't tell.  Why give up on a willing victim?  If an abuser can't provoke a reaction he'll probably escalate the abuse, at least until his victim reacts, and/or move onto other submissive members of the household...like the kids.

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I do feel bad for Debi Pearl. I think she honestly believes this because this is what she did with her own husband. I think she obeyed his every whim and eventually he came around.

(That or she still hopes he will).

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1 hour ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I do feel bad for Debi Pearl. I think she honestly believes this because this is what she did with her own husband. I think she obeyed his every whim and eventually he came around.

(That or she still hopes he will).

I agree. He likely also turned this abuse onto his children and it may have deflected a bit from her. I think Debbie, and many others like her, have to find a reason for the abuse as a coping mechanism. Neither Debbie, nor other fundy woman, believe they can walk away from their Godly marriage so they try and find a way to justify it. What better way than to say that God is working through them to make their husband a better man? Most women would have left after that horrific honeymoon, Debbie obviously didn't think that was even an option open to her. She likely had already been conditioned to accept abuse before she even said "I Do".

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1 minute ago, socalrules said:

Most women would have left after that horrific honeymoon, Debbie obviously didn't think that was even an option open to her. She likely had already been conditioned to accept abuse before she even said "I Do".

Yeah. While one part of me hates the stuff she promotes, another part of me pities her for the perspective which informs her toxic beliefs.

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15 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Yeah. While one part of me hates the stuff she promotes, another part of me pities her for the perspective which informs her toxic beliefs.

Kind of like the way I feel about the Duggar Women!  

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Even when my mama and I kept sweet as best as we could, it didn't stop my dad from going on anger rampages...

Fuck Debi Pearl.

So sorry you went through that. I agree with you. For a real change of heart in a person who has crossed so many boundries, more is needed than a sweet wife and daughter. Maybe jail would be a good place to start.

thanks foreign ❤️

I wish it was illegal for people to advertise these kinds of harmful opinions. People die from domestic violence, for Christs Sake.

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10 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I do feel bad for Debi Pearl. I think she honestly believes this because this is what she did with her own husband. I think she obeyed his every whim and eventually he came around.

(That or she still hopes he will).

What strikes me most about Debi Pearl's words is that there is a strong sense of feeling morally superior because of the extent of her submission.  The man is supposed to be shamed by the woman's behavior.  Though it isn't actually said, that is what is going on, at least partly, in all that talk about the man learning about Christ's love.   The woman sees herself as Christ's representative and this makes her feel that her humiliation and pain have meaning.  It is sadly twisted.

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On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 7:48 AM, ksgranola1 said:

Whoosh, I would think twice before calling anyone, especially someone you don't know, "ignorant and offensive" in your as usual, verbose postings.

Well, if it looks like a duck....

And as for verbosity, I don't think there is any law against it. 

On ‎2‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 2:49 AM, season of life said:

Josh never felt sorry for any of his victims. He probably doesn't even feel sorry he cheated on Anna and disrespected their marriage. He only regrets that he got caught BOTH times (when the redacted police report came out and when the Ashley Madison breach revealed his info).

The fact that he got "caught" twice is a big signal that the behavior is pervasive.  I don't think he is sorry, either.  I think he wants to live a normal life and feels trapped.  He has no tools to live the way  he wants to in a way that won't hurt others, so he tries to do it secretly.  Honestly, the affairs thing... I can understand that and even feel some empathy for Josh, though his actions were horrible and hurtful. It's the sexual touching of his sisters that I just cannot deal with.  That is just not normal behavior.

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9 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

The fact that he got "caught" twice is a big signal that the behavior is pervasive. 

It's one of the reasons I am uncomfortable and angry that Anna is going back to him. He has shown that he will hurt others repeatedly without any remorse. No doubt Josh is going to run into more trouble down the road.

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The Debi Pearl advice... yikes, it reminds me of a young woman I used to go to church with many years ago. My husband and I got together with them a few times because we were the only young couples in the church, but the husband gave us a weird vibe. The pastor ended up making him a deacon because he talked the fundie talk so well, in spite of my husband (who was the youth pastor) warning the pastor that something isn't right about him, and maybe dig a little deeper before putting him in a position of authority.

Anyway, maybe 6 months later the wife found out she was pregnant with their 3rd child, and we didn't know it at the time but she confided in the pastor's wife that her husband impregnated her after beating and raping her during some cocaine binges. The advice the pastor's wife had given was basically a word-for-word copy of Debi's Pearl's spiel... and of course the church leadership did nothing to try and intervene and get them some help; their solution was to tell her to pray for him and god will soften his heart. Then one day they were gone and attempts to reach them were unsuccessful.

We, of course, knew nothing of the abuse until my husband ran into her about 2 years later. Turns out that the husband ended up disappearing not too long after they stopped going to the church. She met and married a really great guy (an atheist, no less), and he has helped raise the children as if he were their own. I don't know if the ex-husband gave up his parental rights, but he hasn't seen the children in probably 10 years.

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On February 29, 2016 at 5:58 AM, foreign fundie said:

I found the quote from Debi Pearl in the Raw Story article very telling. She gives advice to abused wives. I quote:

He will hear and see her cheerful countenance. He will notice her willingness to help and forgive. He will see her giving up her rights and not taking offense when he knows he has wronged her. He will see she honors him, obeys him, treats him with respect, and serves him with a non-rebellious, non-resistant attitude. He will see her spirit is not raging outwardly in emotional fits or inwardly in silent brooding of hurt, but her spirit is quiet, restful, and peaceful. He will see she doesn’t puff up and talk incessantly in criticism of him—or others. He trusts her. He knows she is not going to discuss him with her pastor or friend. He sees she is wise with what little money he gives her. She is a remarkable woman, not because she is classy in the way she dresses or looks, but in the way she controls her spirit. She rejoices for an opportunity to bless him, and he knows her heart is good. He tries her; he deliberately tempts her into hurt or anger; he judges her unfairly; he demands things of her that he knows embarrasses her, yet she is in subjection to him in all things. And in the end, she wins him by her chaste conversation. It is a promise from God to you.

It really sounds to me like she is an expert from experience.

Of course, one cannot even begin to say all the things that are wrong with this. But the last line is an important indication of what is underlying her theory. She claims that the Bible promised a good wife not only can, but ultimately will change a violent husband. The Bible does not promise that anywhere, and could not, as freedom to sin is a corner stone of Biblical theology. A person can never convert another person if he chooses not to be converted (converted in the sense of changing his ways). 

What she advocates is not trusting in God, but quite the opposite. She tells women to trust in their super super human powers (cheerfully obeying an abusive asshole) to change their husbands. If they are good enough, they can do it. They are not even supposed to ask for help from their pastors. THEY will change him. Instead of letting their abusive husbands go and trusting God to deal with them. 

I wonder how many have died from following this advice? One is too many. 

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On February 29, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Hera said:

Fucking fundies. I'll use their logic for a minute, which is a problematic way of basically getting at the concept that in a healthy marriage, treating someone with respect, kindness and love generally gets you treated with respect, kindness and love in turn.  Okay. That's fair. And they credit Jesus's influence in their lives for that happening. Alright. Let's go with that. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that even Fundie Jesus doesn't want your husband to abuse you. So, if he is, then obviously Jesus isn't in his heart and therefore he isn't listening to Jesus tell him not to hit you because you are a perfect little fundie wife. Thus, once your husband starts to abuse you you must get away from him. Even if you don't want a divorce, even if you want to pray that he will find Jesus again, you can't stay with him because if he isn't listening to Jesus, then doing what Jesus says to do won't protect you.  

Therefore, if anyone here is reading this and believes that all they have to do is be better and their spouse will stop abusing them, that's not how it works. Regardless of whether you believe in the power of Jesus to fix him or the power of love to change him, he's not acting according to either one and therefore nothing you do based on that belief system will work. You have to get out. 

This is what I don't understand about Debi Pearl's logic. Isn't their entire belief system based around taking personal responsibility for one's own spiritual welfare by accepting Jesus as one's savior? Nobody can accept Jesus for another individual. Nobody can make an individual accept Jesus. So if a husband is refusing to accept Jesus and repent his sins (by continually being an abusive sinner) then why is the wife responsible? Also, fundies view men as "responsible" for a whole list of other "moral failings" and "sins" (including homosexuality, mental illness, having "sinful" birth parents). So why is it suddenly different for domestic abuse?

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I worked in a woman's shelter. We called it the 1,001 rule. You can do a thousand things right but there will always be one more thing, that will set the guy off. Yes, I know women can be the perpetrators, too. Debi Pearl is full of it, and gives dangerous advice.

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So I had never read about the Pearls honeymoon so I googled it. That is without a doubt one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. He is a disgusting piece of trash masquerading as a human.

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13 minutes ago, Sjestings said:

So I had never read about the Pearls honeymoon so I googled it. That is without a doubt one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. He is a disgusting piece of trash masquerading as a human.

Jesus! I just...oh, my god. This is just horrific. What the actual fuck?

Trigger warning:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/

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I find it interesting that she stood up to him and complained about the way he was treating her. not what she recommends in her book.

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30 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I find it interesting that she stood up to him and complained about the way he was treating her. not what she recommends in her book.

True. But it took a hellacious 24 hours and mental and physical breaking point for her to do it. And, then his response was "I guess she'll adapt."  God, what a nightmare of an introduction to marriage.    It really nails time how insidious abuse is that she went from a normal reaction-expressing hurt, anger and disappointment-to giving up and praying it would just stop.  I may disagree vehemently with their politics, but I sincerely hope that this story is the far extreme exception and nowhere near the norm for these women. 

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41 minutes ago, Hera said:

True. But it took a hellacious 24 hours and mental and physical breaking point for her to do it. And, then his response was "I guess she'll adapt."  God, what a nightmare of an introduction to marriage.    It really nails time how insidious abuse is that she went from a normal reaction-expressing hurt, anger and disappointment-to giving up and praying it would just stop.  I may disagree vehemently with their politics, but I sincerely hope that this story is the far extreme exception and nowhere near the norm for these women. 

Seems like she did "adapt."  It is clearly a type of Stockholm syndrome.  Very sad.

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