Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 5

[quiverofdoubt]

2 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Now I'm imagining a fundie woman committing a crime so she can go to jail on vacation...

Jail is a horrible place and being stuck there is no picnic. I do not want the rest of this post to make light of that. But. I can think of a long list of benefits jail has over being married off to a shitty fundy headship.

• your own bed (granted a bunk, but you don't have to share with a creepy husband and a gaggle of children who wandered in over night)
• no need to cook for an army of people
• no need to clean up after an army of people
• yours is the only butt you'll have to wipe
• months without being impregnated or breastfeeding- your body is once again yours!
• forced sex can happen in jail. But you are allowed to call it rape and if the circumstances permit, file charges
• Pants
• time to yourself
• you're allowed to read the bible. and interpret for yourself
• if you work, you get paid
• time off for good behavior
• medical and psychological treatment (quality depends on your facility of course) of a secular and actually helpful nature
• regular showers
• no need for hours and hours of daily "bible" time
• did i mention the pants?
• you get paid for services such as laundry, cooking, dishes etc.
• depending on your facility and charges, work release programs. they may allow you to get a real job!
• you are allowed to work towards an education
• secular tv

I know there are more, the list could go on, but it's bedtime here

[nastyhobbitses]

On 2/21/2016 at 4:34 AM, AshSC said:

Here we go; this made me think of y'all. 

I'm just reminded of a scene from the very, very avant-garde TV show The Heart She Holler where a very lecherous man is praying to God in a bathroom stall. His prayer goes a little something like this:

"Dear Lord, I hit rock bottom. I called the sex hotline and they declined my credit card. So, I turn to You....what are you wearing?"

[patsymae]

On February 20, 2016 at 6:14 AM, nastyhobbitses said:

That was very normal for a lot of wealthy and powerful men for a very long time. Your wife is there to give you a legitimate heir, your mistress is for fun/genuine affection. Heck, many kings were considered weird if they didn't have an official mistress/actually loved their queen consort (as you can imagine, political or money marriages rarely if ever involved love or even basic compatibility). I read somewhere that it was the rise of the Victorian cult of domesticity that made the mistress far less socially acceptable in the upper echelons of society.

At Francois Mitterand's funeral, his wife and his mistress and all of their children by him all stood together. Vive la France!

I don't think Josh will ever stay faithful to Anna but I'm in the camp that thinks he doesn't have "affairs"--he will seek out prostitutes or one-night stands that he will think of as prostitutes. It's the whore/Madonna mentality and it's ingrained in him.

I wrote an article once on prostitution in a very conservative midwestern city and the cops told me that the "clients" were invariably white, married, suburban pillars of the community who cried like babies when they got caught. The sought out prostitutes because they could denigrate them (in their own minds) and do things that they would never do "to" (cops' word, not mine, notice it's not "with") their wives. Anna can be joyfully available till the cows come home and Josh is going to want to get down and dirty with women he thinks of as inferior (and yes, regardless of the lawsuit, I still believe he thinks it is acceptable to abuse). Anna better start really, really enjoying being a martyr -- or start listening to her more clear-thinking siblings--because I don't think she's going to be able to pray this one away.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

At Francois Mitterand's funeral, his wife and his mistress and all of their children by him all stood together. Vive la France!

I don't think Josh will ever stay faithful to Anna but I'm in the camp that thinks he doesn't have "affairs"--he will seek out prostitutes or one-night stands that he will think of as prostitutes. It's the whore/Madonna mentality and it's ingrained in him.

I wrote an article once on prostitution in a very conservative midwestern city and the cops told me that the "clients" were invariably white, married, suburban pillars of the community who cried like babies when they got caught. The sought out prostitutes because they could denigrate them (in their own minds) and do things that they would never do "to" (cops' word, not mine, notice it's not "with") their wives. Anna can be joyfully available till the cows come home and Josh is going to want to get down and dirty with women he thinks of as inferior (and yes, regardless of the lawsuit, I still believe he thinks it is acceptable to abuse). Anna better start really, really enjoying being a martyr -- or start listening to her more clear-thinking siblings--because I don't think she's going to be able to pray this one away.

Yeah, I am very inclined to believe that Josh sought out prostitutes 1) because, it sounds mean, but he's not attractive enough for his douchiness to be overlooked and he's not smart/charming/interesting enough for his looks to be overlooked -- sad but true, and 2) because prostitutes are low enough on the social totem pole that he thinks he can get away with doing all the things he wants to do TO Anna, but can't, either because he thinks she'd tell, or because he thinks someone would find that out quicker (I doubt he cares much about the whole "her wellbeing" thing). I don't think he wants nor did he ever want to seek out an affair like what Louis XIV had with Madame du Pompadour (which was actual love and intellectual connection). He wants cheap thrills from disposable women.

[quiverofdoubt]

3 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Yeah, I am very inclined to believe that Josh sought out prostitutes 1) because, it sounds mean, but he's not attractive enough for his douchiness to be overlooked and he's not smart/charming/interesting enough for his looks to be overlooked -- sad but true, and 2) because prostitutes are low enough on the social totem pole that he thinks he can get away with doing all the things he wants to do TO Anna, but can't, either because he thinks she'd tell, or because he thinks someone would find that out quicker (I doubt he cares much about the whole "her wellbeing" thing). I don't think he wants nor did he ever want to seek out an affair like what Louis XIV had with Madame du Pompadour (which was actual love and intellectual connection). He wants cheap thrills from disposable women.

I'm not convinced josh is capable of deep meaningful connections with women. Or maybe anybody. I don't see him wooing a non fundie women, taking her out, having intellectaul and late into the night conversations with said women. I'm not sure he ever did anything similar with his wife even.  His out of marriage hook ups are just about sex for him. Can you honestly see him setting the foundation for an actual relationship with someone? anyone? He may hook up with the same one night stands or prostitutes more than once out of convenience, but not out of some emotional connection. That's just my opinion of course- maybe i'm too harsh. But i really don't care, he's an awful person.

[amendgitan]

On February 18, 2016 at 3:20 PM, nst said:

I told you it would start eventually - the martyr stuff - it's starting late imo 

wait till he gets home 

she will give him endless shit about all this 

I don't know. I think she has been raised so strongly to be meek and submissive and to internalize any failing on the part of her man as her own fault that I can't imagine her giving him shit about anything. Ever. 

I feel profoundly sorry for Anna Duggar. 

[ksgranola1]

22 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I'm not convinced josh is capable of deep meaningful connections with women. Or maybe anybody. I don't see him wooing a non fundie women, taking her out, having intellectaul and late into the night conversations with said women. I'm not sure he ever did anything similar with his wife even.  His out of marriage hook ups are just about sex for him. Can you honestly see him setting the foundation for an actual relationship with someone? anyone? He may hook up with the same one night stands or prostitutes more than once out of convenience, but not out of some emotional connection. That's just my opinion of course- maybe i'm too harsh. But i really don't care, he's an awful person.

There are psychological reasons men turn out like that, usually b/c their mother was a ho or he was sexually abused as a small kid. Are there other reasons?

[quiverofdoubt]

11 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

There are psychological reasons men turn out like that, usually b/c their mother was a ho or he was sexually abused as a small kid. Are there other reasons?

all kinds of reasons i'm sure. depends on if you're more in the nature or nurture camp. Could just be the way he was born.  I'm guessing a mix of things: lack of a secure attachment to mom, abuse early in life, a brain predisposed to sociopathy. Combine the high levels of neglect and abuse he endured and witnessed, of several forms and varying degrees.   I'm sure a professional profiler could have a field day with his case.  It could just be the way his brain was wired from the get go.  Remember that the uni bomber had a brother: raised in the same family by the same people in the same way. That brother was a stand up man who was the one who turned the uni bomber in.  

Adding: josh was raised in an environment where women are second class citizens. He grew up with a mentality that wives can't be raped. In fact if you extend the gothard logic he probably doesn't really believe in rape. Gothard says: women would never willingly say yes to sex. therefor if they say no it is meaningless. Since women can't consent, and will never enjoy sex, then their consent doesn't matter and rape doesn't exist.  So they don't believe a husband can rape his wife because god gave her to him for his pleasure. The only reason by that logic it's a sin to rape women outside the marriage is because sex outside marriage is a sin.

That is not a healthy environment to be in. It teaches a total disregard for women, and i doubt he believes women are capable of an equal partnership with him.

[ksgranola1]

  ok; that's more than I can handle. Jeffrey Dowhmer came from a nice family, too. Two parents, still married.

He himself said he knew there was something wrong w/him, but he just didn't know how to tell his parents.

Anyway, that's murderers. That thing about not giving consent & God gave her to him for his pleasure...I can see if that was drummed into him..and all that other stuff. Boy, that's really, really warped.

oh, bleach.

 

[patsymae]

On February 23, 2016 at 4:56 PM, ksgranola1 said:

There are psychological reasons men turn out like that, usually b/c their mother was a ho or he was sexually abused as a small kid. Are there other reasons?

"their mother was a ho?" Seriously? If the victim isn't a "ho" and ergo at fault, then the mother was?

Other reasons? How about living in a male-dominated culture that objectifies women and lays the blame for male miscreance at the feet of women? Yeah, I'll vote for that reason.

[violynn]

On 2/23/2016 at 3:56 PM, ksgranola1 said:

There are psychological reasons men turn out like that, usually b/c their mother was a ho or he was sexually abused as a small kid. Are there other reasons?

wtf!?  

Since you're obviously a Degreed Mental and Sexual Health Specialist™, please, tell me more about what kind of ho the maternal figure would be that creates a douche like Joshley.  Do you mean a woman who accepts money for sexual favors?  I think that's referred to as a sex worker, or prostitute nowadays.  Do you mean a woman who carries on sexual liasons while married?  I think those are adulterers?  Perhaps you mean a woman who chooses to have multiple sex partners?  I'm pretty sure those women are called women who choose to have multiple sex partners.  Please tell me, Degreed Mental and Sexual Health Specialist™, was said ho mother being a ho while married to son's dad?  or a ho single mother?

I really need to know.

17 minutes ago, patsymae said:

"their mother was a ho?" Seriously? If the victim isn't a "ho" and ergo at fault, then the mother was?

Other reasons? How about living in a male-dominated culture that objectifies women and lays the blame for male miscreance at the feet of women? Yeah, I'll vote for that reason.

I love that reason, I think that's much more logical.  AND since it describes EXACTLY how the male miscreant was raised, definitely makes more sense.  I vote with you, @patsymae. 

[gustava]

2 minutes ago, violynn said:

wtf!?  

Since you're obviously a Degreed Mental and Sexual Health Specialist™, please, tell me more about what kind of ho the maternal figure would be that creates a douche like Joshley.  Do you mean a woman who accepts money for sexual favors?  I think that's referred to as a sex worker, or prostitute nowadays.  Do you mean a woman who carries on sexual liasons while married?  I think those are adulterers?  Perhaps you mean a woman who chooses to have multiple sex partners?  I'm pretty sure those women are called women who choose to have multiple sex partners.  Please tell me, Degreed Mental and Sexual Health Specialist™, was said ho mother being a ho while married to son's dad?  or a ho single mother?

I really need to know.

Yikes.  I thought ksgranola was being snidely snarky.  If not....

[Whoosh]

Soooooo - ignoring the absolute lunatic level of insanity and offensiveness that may or may not have just happened in this thread, there are LOTS of psychological reasons men might turn out "like that".  We have discussed LOTS of them over and over and over.  If people pull an ostrich and stick their heads in the sand - nothing changes if nothing changes.  Here are some things that the majority of psychologists and child development specialists would say are BAD IDEAS:

• Teaching random systems of "right" and "wrong" based on "sin" and "what God wants" that have no basis whatsoever in the impacts of the actions here on earth
• Sheltering and isolating your children to a ridiculous degree and not allowing outside checks and balances on the family system
• Telling boys and girls that females are the evil ones - they tempt poor innocent men with that apple
• Telling boys and girls that females of all ages are guilty of the above sin against poor innocent men and that MEN CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES when tempted like that
• Teaching children that children and women exist purely to serve and satisfy the needs of men
• Teaching children and women to obey men unconditionally and unquestioningly
• Teaching men that if children and women don't instantly obey without questioning, a "Godly man" will CORRECT their behavior
• Telling a kid that looking at a Cosmopolitan magazine and sexual assault, cheating, etc are pretty much the same thing
• Teaching kids it doesn't matter what they do as long as they say sorry to God

I could go on, but I have to go throw up now.

Tootles.

[violynn]

5 minutes ago, gustava said:

Yikes.  I thought ksgranola was being snidely snarky.  If not....

based on the op she was replying to, and her Jeffrey 'Dowhmer' post, I don't think so.  Of course, if she was, I'll be apologizing profusely.  But I'm not convinced.  

[quiverofdoubt]

I do not remember reading in my psych text books that a boy children born to prostitutes become horrible, douchey scumbaggy people actually. Maybe I missed that chapter?  It's more a stereotype law and order and similar shows use. Not real life. 

I wrote a shortened version of why i think josh turned out the way he did, and I could do a super super long version. Instead I'll say I agree with @patsymae, and add that the gothard raised kids are set up for huge moral failures. The fact that more of the adult kids don't have similar problems is a testament to the goodness of human spirit, and the resilience of people.

5 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

Soooooo - ignoring the absolute lunatic level of insanity and offensiveness that may or may not have just happened in this thread, there are LOTS of psychological reasons men might turn out "like that".  We have discussed LOTS of them over and over and over.  If people pull an ostrich and stick their heads in the sand - nothing changes if nothing changes.  Here are some things that the majority of psychologists and child development specialists would say are BAD IDEAS:

• Teaching random systems of "right" and "wrong" based on "sin" and "what God wants" that have no basis whatsoever in the impacts of the actions here on earth
• Sheltering and isolating your children to a ridiculous degree and not allowing outside checks and balances on the family system
• Telling boys and girls that females are the evil ones - they tempt poor innocent men with that apple
• Telling boys and girls that females of all ages are guilty of the above sin against poor innocent men and that MEN CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES when tempted like that
• Teaching children that children and women exist purely to serve and satisfy the needs of men
• Teaching children and women to obey men unconditionally and unquestioningly
• Teaching men that if children and women don't instantly obey without questioning, a "Godly man" will CORRECT their behavior
• Telling a kid that looking at a Cosmopolitan magazine and sexual assault, cheating, etc are pretty much the same thing
• Teaching kids it doesn't matter what they do as long as they say sorry to God

I could go on, but I have to go throw up now.

Tootles.

I'll add!

• raising children to ignore any internal sense of right and wrong by demanding total and complete and instant obedience 
• treating the female body as nothing but a sex/baby making object, forever linking the human body to the act of sex and nothing else
• shrouding sex and sexuality and the body in mystery and fear, and using only codewords to describe those things
• refusing any legitimate sexual education
• teaching your children than any sexual desires, feelings or sensations are unnatural and sinful unless you are married
• refusing to allow any normal or natural relationships to develop between your teenage children and people outside the home, including experimentation with dating/touching etc
• teaching your children that the "natural order" is jesus, husband, wife, children

Growing up with a sex worker/prostitute for a mother isn't indicative of anything in terms of long term outcomes for young men. Unless you count that that line of work is more highly correlated with poverty, which has a large impact on children.

[patsymae]

22 minutes ago, violynn said:

based on the op she was replying to, and her Jeffrey 'Dowhmer' post, I don't think so.  Of course, if she was, I'll be apologizing profusely.  But I'm not convinced.  

Maybe I missed the snark. If so, sorry, but I still like the discussion that is following.

[Dandruff]

I suspect that Josh expected a marriage more like his parents'; i.e., genuine love and affection.  How was he to know that the good feelings wouldn't magically appear, especially after the Lord placed it on his heart (and Jim Bob and Pa Keller agreed) that Anna was "the one"?  I think he cared about Anna and wanted a happy marriage - why wouldn't he?  But she was an acquaintance.  Unlike Jim Bob, who was allowed to sin and really get to know cheerleader Michelle, Josh had to trust in a good outcome if he prayed a lot and played by the rules.  I believe that, following a few years of marriage and high expectations, he realized he simply wasn't happy and wasn't going to be happy so he strayed.  He wasn't smart enough to cover his tracks or decent enough to find a better solution to his "problem".  He was also too selfish to consider the damage that his actions might cause.

I'm not defending him or blaming Anna.  I'm definitely blaming the cult and his parents though.

[season of life]

I think Josh really didn't love Anna. He may have thought she was a nice girl, but I honestly think he married her to have sex as soon as possible/get out of the house and his parents wanted him out of the house. Maybe he and his parents thought settling down with a godly woman would help him change. We've seen with this family that marriage can be a way to get superficial independence, at least if you're male. Josh had his own home, got to use the computer how he wanted, and could have private time to himself without a gazillion other siblings around.

Though I must say, it's going to be a tad embarrassing going from the narrator of some of the Duggar specials to being kicked off any future shows. 

[patsymae]

Well, yes and no. Josh didn't "stray," as in having an affair with an actual human woman that he considered a woman, he at the very least went on websites hoping to have anonymous purely sexual encounters.

I also don't believe for a minute he tried to carve an independent life for himself. Really, he could have even done that at the car dealership--shown up, taken charge--and instead he was perfectly happy being shown on TV flying model airplanes around a business office while his "valued" employees did the work and his wife literally hung around behind closed doors tending to the children and feeding him lunch.

Then he went to Washington and with no understanding that he had no skills or anything to offer got the opportunity to give speeches, be photographed with major political figures, and spew his dumbass shit in front of crowds that seemed to him, I'm sure, receptive to his "message." From flying airplanes in the back office of you father's car dealership to being on stage with a Cruz or Santorum or whomever--and on TV and the inter webs--all Josh needs to be important, not just to his wife and children who have to adore and obey him, but to all of America--is to be--Josh!
Odds of rehabilation--0 to infinity.

[quiverofdoubt]

1 hour ago, season of life said:

I think Josh really didn't love Anna. He may have thought she was a nice girl, but I honestly think he married her to have sex as soon as possible/get out of the house and his parents wanted him out of the house. Maybe he and his parents thought settling down with a godly woman would help him change. We've seen with this family that marriage can be a way to get superficial independence, at least if you're male. Josh had his own home, got to use the computer how he wanted, and could have private time to himself without a gazillion other siblings around.

Though I must say, it's going to be a tad embarrassing going from the narrator of some of the Duggar specials to being kicked off any future shows. 

And that's the big drawback to their courtship lifestyle. If I was 16-21 had never had any real independence, and wasn't even allowed to hold hands till engaged, and masturbation was evil and sinful, you bet your ass I would've married just about anybody.  They barely knew themselves, and weren't fully mature. Easy to fool yourself into thinking this guy/gal is wonderful, i can over look their faults/our lack of connection. When you view marriage as mostly an end to sexual frustration and a source of independence from your parents you'll agree to a lot, and over look more.

Not saying couples who wait to have sex till marriage marry for sex. In fact, the more education a kid is given, and personal responsibility, in terms of their body and sex ed, the later they lose their virginity, and they tend to have fewer sexual partners. But the duggar kids aren't given any of that. 

teenage boys think about sex on average something like 50 times a minute. Can you imagine trying to repress all those hormones and urges and thoughts and curiosity? ah! "relief comes when I get married? yeah, I'll marry her!" "that's a shrub" "I don't even care anymore!"

[season of life]

1 minute ago, quiverofdoubt said:

And that's the big drawback to their courtship lifestyle. If I was 16-21 had never had any real independence, and wasn't even allowed to hold hands till engaged, and masturbation was evil and sinful, you bet your ass I would've married just about anybody.  They barely knew themselves, and weren't fully mature. Easy to fool yourself into thinking this guy/gal is wonderful, i can over look their faults/our lack of connection. When you view marriage as mostly an end to sexual frustration and a source of independence from your parents you'll agree to a lot, and over look more.

Not saying couples who wait to have sex till marriage marry for sex. In fact, the more education a kid is given, and personal responsibility, in terms of their body and sex ed, the later they lose their virginity, and they tend to have fewer sexual partners. But the duggar kids aren't given any of that. 

teenage boys think about sex on average something like 50 times a minute. Can you imagine trying to repress all those hormones and urges and thoughts and curiosity? ah! "relief comes when I get married? yeah, I'll marry her!" "that's a shrub" "I don't even care anymore!"

Hey, teenage girls are known to be quite lusty from time to time . But yes, I do think that limiting your children in these ways increase the chances of them settling for ANYONE who comes their way.

[quiverofdoubt]

2 minutes ago, season of life said:

Hey, teenage girls are known to be quite lusty from time to time . But yes, I do think that limiting your children in these ways increase the chances of them settling for ANYONE who comes their way.

Oh yes, for sure  girls can be just as interested or more than boys for sure. When I was a teenage girl I would've married for lust if i was in that position. I was just referencing josh there.  Plus, for some sad twisted reason, in fundie world girls don't have sexual desires or sexual pleasure. Sometimes I wonder if the girls get a bit more freedom to explore their bodies (in hiding of course) if only because their parents assume they won't. The boys seem to be closely watched, have to wear jeans to bed and don't seem to get much in the way of blankets/sheets.  but the girls don't have those restrictions. 

[season of life]

1 minute ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Oh yes, for sure  girls can be just as interested or more than boys for sure. When I was a teenage girl I would've married for lust if i was in that position. I was just referencing josh there.  Plus, for some sad twisted reason, in fundie world girls don't have sexual desires or sexual pleasure. Sometimes I wonder if the girls get a bit more freedom to explore their bodies (in hiding of course) if only because their parents assume they won't. The boys seem to be closely watched, have to wear jeans to bed and don't seem to get much in the way of blankets/sheets.  but the girls don't have those restrictions. 

Really?! I never knew that. Oh, goodness.

[quiverofdoubt]

1 minute ago, season of life said:

Really?! I never knew that. Oh, goodness.

The jeans to bed has been discussed in other threads. No idea where. The boys sleep in their clothes, and generally those tight jeans. On the surface michelle and jb would have you think it's to save on laundry/effort of changing all those kids. But in reality I think it's to keep them from exploring too much. Sweat pants are much easier to slip your hands into.

[season of life]

Just now, quiverofdoubt said:

The jeans to bed has been discussed in other threads. No idea where. The boys sleep in their clothes, and generally those tight jeans. On the surface michelle and jb would have you think it's to save on laundry/effort of changing all those kids. But in reality I think it's to keep them from exploring too much. Sweat pants are much easier to slip your hands into.

Oh, naw. That's insane. I suppose if I were a fundamentalist, I'd be taking whatever measures I could to prevent my kids from the natural event of sexual exploration.