Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 4

[16strong]

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

This is the fact that makes me wonder about it being some kind of compulsion.  He knew that wasn't going to be covered up, he can't have thought he would get away with it, why would you do that?  Even given the despicable things he did, why would you do it in such a way you must get caught?  

Attention? Crying out for help? Either that, or it was a power play, letting everyone know that HE was the one in control.

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, Whoosh said:

OK, so - Josh didn't "appear to be" any more or less afflicted than the others.  Further, after Josh "succumbed to his affliction", they put "safeguards" in place for the entire family to prevent any further such "succumbing to afflictions" in the future.  Further, they likely realized that it would be bad, bad, bad if anyone outside the family caught wind of any other family members that were "similarly afflicted", so if anything DID happen, I doubt we would have any way of knowing about it.  So, I think we as a group are not sure what you are asking maybe.

There was a lot of discussion about the repressive sexual environment, etc., in the Duggar household. And how this environment contributed to Josh's problems. But forget it, I'm getting nowhere fast here.

4 hours ago, Whoosh said:

OK, so - Josh didn't "appear to be" any more or less afflicted than the others.  Further, after Josh "succumbed to his affliction", they put "safeguards" in place for the entire family to prevent any further such "succumbing to afflictions" in the future.  Further, they likely realized that it would be bad, bad, bad if anyone outside the family caught wind of any other family members that were "similarly afflicted", so if anything DID happen, I doubt we would have any way of knowing about it.  So, I think we as a group are not sure what you are asking maybe.

The "appear to be" comment was not about Josh at all. But forget I ever brought this up since I am so inarticulate.

[Whoosh]

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

There was a lot of discussion about the repressive sexual environment, etc., in the Duggar household. And how this environment contributed to Josh's problems. But forget it, I'm getting nowhere fast here.

Yes, his environment, in my opinion, most certainly played a VERY LARGE role.  Other factors also come into play.  Without you or I speculating about the behavior of anyone else, I am not sure what the question is.  That is all I am saying.  

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

The "appear to be" comment was not about Josh at all. But forget I ever brought this up since I am so inarticulate.

I am pretty sure I am clear on what you were implying when you said "appear to be" and who you were talking about.  In my opinion, you are making a huge assumption and drawing conclusions out of thin air.

[JesusCampSongs]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

A few weeks ago we were discussing someone who claimed to know the Duggars and the Kellers, and was discovered to be legit. I don't want to say too much because I don't want to risk revealing this person's identity. The related discussion can be found in AYTFJ. What I found most disturbing was that this person suggested that Josh was not the only Duggar involved in sexual misconduct. This person would not be more specific when questioned because they apparently did not want to hurt the family. Of course they could have been lying, confused or misled, but I would not be shocked at all if Josh was not the only seriously fucked up person in that family.

In my experience (therapist who works with teenagers), the more creepy, molest-y kids there are in a family, the more likely it is that there was at least one predatory adult involved in creating the situation. Said adult offends on a few kids, then they start offending on each other and younger siblings/cousins, and so on. One of the red flags for this is when you see young-ish children using grooming tactics (like pretending it's a game, offering bribes, etc.) on kids who are younger than them, along with knowing adult terminology for sex-related acts. 

Given fundie culture's production of a target-rich environment with low accountability, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that ATI or VF were harboring individuals who prey on younger kids. 

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, Trynn said:

 

I don't like the idea of speculating about whether or not other Duggar boys might molest.... First because news sites tend to read here and take rumor as fact, and what we say could end up in a tabloid somewhere and, true or not, ruin someone's reputation.

Also, it just feels.... Icky to me somehow. Rubs me the wrong way.

But if it's not against the rules, carry on and Ignore me, I suppose

Don't know who you were directing this to, but that is not what I was doing. That is not what I said. If anything, I indirectly inferred that they have no issues like Josh. Nature vs. nurture is what I was getting at, but forget it, sorry I brought it up.Several posters feel strongly that the environment did not just contribute to Josh's problems, but caused them and I'm not so sure about that Too easy for things to go off the rails when it comes to the Duggars. Back to the Rodriguii!

11 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

Yes, his environment, in my opinion, most certainly played a VERY LARGE role.  Other factors also come into play.  Without you or I speculating about the behavior of anyone else, I am not sure what the question is.  That is all I am saying.  

I am pretty sure I am clear on what you were implying when you said "appear to be" and who you were talking about.  In my opinion, you are making a huge assumption and drawing conclusions out of thin air.

Your opinion does not matter to me, insulting as it is. In my opinion, you are being unnecessarily argumentative. I won't take the bait.  My comment was misconstrued and after working all day i don't have the energy to parse every word I typed.

 

[Whoosh]

Not trying to be argumentative at all, but just because I have never seen JB go to the bathroom doesn't mean I think he doesn't go.  That is really what I am trying to say on a lot of topics.

[calimojo]

13 hours ago, InThePrayerCloset said:

I think we need to be VERY really careful of speculating or drawing conclusions about any potential sexual attraction to children. As has been discussed before, it is hard to draw any conclusions based on the police report released under FOIA - being conduct of a 15 yrs old. As has been said many times, the DSM definition doesn't kick in until 16 (arbitrary deadline, perhaps, but there's a lot of research behind it), and while we can guess at his "treatment", we can't assume to know everything that went on.

I also think its important that i express 2 unpopular opinions - 

1) As a lawyer, i also don't believe a hypothetical instance in which someone were to find child porn on Josh's computer is evidence that he has a current attraction to children. it is relatively common with someone with a mainstream sexual deviancy (completely legal, run-of-the-mill compulsive hooking up) or porn addiction to escalate their behaviour into more and more "deviant" ways (so 3somes, more and more partners etc), and often, in cases where people are accessing porn, this expresses itself in accessing illegal materials (whether involving kids, animals, snuff materials etc). in my work as i lawyer i have seen this commonly defended in court as not prima facie interest in kids or animals, but rather an addictive spiral of deviance. 

2) there is increasing research and public attention on those that are "celibate but attracted to children" (i.e. NEVER act on their urges) see this article in Salon http://www.salon.com/2015/12/29/im_a_pedophile_but_not_a_monster_2/ and the NPR This American Life http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/transcript. So please do not equate a sexual attraction to children and inherent criminality - while most often associated, to two are not inherently intermingled

 

 

 

 

I am curious as to why you quoted me here.  I was not implying anything specific about josh.  My point was that if he had been looking at child porn, that this information probably would have been discovered by now, because he was clearly not very good at covering his tracks. 

 

I think that Buzzard and others have hit the nail on the head.  Josh's issues were as much about power as they were sexual excitement.  I don't personally get the impression that he is seeking out sexual encounters with minors.  I think he was an opportunistic aggressor who used his position of power in the family to intimidate and likely try to meet his twisted sexual needs. 

It is clear that his behavior persisted beyond one or two incidents and seemed to be escalating.  Abusing a child in full view of anyone is a risky behavior,  abusing a fully awake child in the family laundry room is another example of escalation.  This was no longer the creepy older brother trying to cop a feel on sleeping siblings. 

 

While I don't believe his "treatment" at the time helped him at all, I do think it is possible that it put enough fear of God in him that he didn't act out with sibs again, but instead his compulsion took him to the internet and to trolling for random hookups.  Now Danica is the only one who has come forward, but we don't know that he wasn't  visiting some working girls off and on over time.  It could be that his escapade with Danica was an escalation of his interest in dominance, rough sex etc.  Who knows.  It could also be that Danica was his only hook up and the rest was just fantasy for him. 

 

All we know for sure, is he molested some of his sisters and a family friend, and that he was on several online dating sites, and internet porn and had at least 2 rough encounters outside of his marriage..  that is all bad enough,  and honestly, I hope there is no more.  As entertaining as it has been to watch the family squirm, underneath it all it is tragic and pathetic.  I hope no one else was victimized by him.  I hope that he is able to manage his urges around those who are weaker, smaller and under his control.  I hope that no other woman signed on for some random sex only to be subjected to rough and aggressive sex she didn't consent to.  Josh is broken.  Prayer camp didn't fix him before and it won't this time.  Anna is misguided in her loyalty,  her kids are likely much more aware of the dysfunction than she cares to admit.  The sibling victims have never been given a chance to deal, and having it all made so public has probably been very hard for them.  And JimBob and Michelle have learned nothing and will continue to exploit and endanger their children in the name of Jesus and money. 

[SilverBeach]

This was meant to be a general discussion, not riding the speculation bus on any individual. What triggered my comment is that some posters almost placed the entire blame for Josh's sexual issues on how he was raised. I think it is more just how Josh is. If the environment was the man cause of his deviance, why aren't any of the other brothers like him? They could be, time will tell I guess, but so far so good.

 Now that's all i have to say about that!

4 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

Not trying to be argumentative at all, but just because I have never seen JB go to the bathroom doesn't mean I think he doesn't go.  That is really what I am trying to say on a lot of topics.

There have been no issues revealed about any of the other males that we can see, doesn't mean there aren't any.  I said something to that effect in one of my other posts.  Long day working on an annual report, I was not as clear as I normally am in my original post. I majored in communications as an undergraduate and I know that words have meaning.

[InThePrayerCloset]

8 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

JMO not saying that he went to child porn sites but even if he did I think it's rather unlikely that people would find that out by doing some  googling. Since it's illegal most of those sites probably don't want their user lists easily googlable and have locked the information pretty tightly to nonmembers and casual Sunday googlers. Most users would probably take some precautions not to use the same profile pictures, usernames and email addresses that are traceable to their credit card and home address elsewhere.  It'd take a search warrant to be sure IMO.

exactly. it usually takes someone within a deviant community to expose another member, and (outside of law enforcement) this is unlikely to occur publicly. 

[EmCatlyn]

7 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

This is the fact that makes me wonder about it being some kind of compulsion.  He knew that wasn't going to be covered up, he can't have thought he would get away with it, why would you do that?  Even given the despicable things he did, why would you do it in such a way you must get caught?  

A cry for help, maybe?  (What a pity he didn't get it.)

Regarding why Josh appears to be the only one among the kids to respond in this particular way t the repressive but sexually charged environment, I agree that we don't know what really goes on, and I also agree that different personalities will respond differently the same situation.  Add to that, no two children, even twins, experience exactly the same situation as they grow up even in the same family.

In my opinion, however, all the Duggar kids have been hurt by their upbringing.  They will not all act out in similar ways, but there are/are going to be problems beyond those that we have identified (lack of education, smuggarness, etc.).  Josh just picked a newsworthy way to act-out.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

7 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

This is the fact that makes me wonder about it being some kind of compulsion.  He knew that wasn't going to be covered up, he can't have thought he would get away with it, why would you do that?  Even given the despicable things he did, why would you do it in such a way you must get caught?  

The attacks against his sisters happened before his family became even remotely famous. And, he had no idea how the "wordly" world worked. He had been largely kept out of mainstream society his whole life. Plus, within his community, he saw very little public punishment. Why would he have been afraid of people finding out?

[EmCatlyn]

13 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

The attacks against his sisters happened before his family became even remotely famous. And, he had no idea how the "wordly" world worked. He had been largely kept out of mainstream society his whole life. Plus, within his community, he saw very little public punishment. Why would he have been afraid of people finding out?

I understood the question to mean that he would get caught and punished by his parents.  We have speculated that "the rod" was not spared in the earlier cases.  So it leads you to wonder why he molested the youngest sister.  He must have known she would tell.

If I have followed the sequence of events correctly, it is after the incident with the 5 year old that he was sent away to pray and work away the sin. 

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

15 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I understood the question to mean that he would get caught and punished by his parents.  We have speculated that "the rod" was not spared in the earlier cases.  So it leads you to wonder why he molested the youngest sister.  He must have known she would tell.

If I have followed the sequence of events correctly, it is after the incident with the 5 year old that he was sent away to pray and work away the sin. 

The thing is he wasn't given the help he needed, and the thrill of or satisfaction from the acts were more of an incentive than his punishments were a deterrent. Plus, assuming they regularly relied on "the rod," having the same punishment for lying as you do for molesting your sisters doesn't really discourage molesting your sisters.....

And, yes, it was after her that they sent him to Jesus camp. That was also after his father stopped running for office. If JB had won the election, Josh may never have been sent away because of the family image.

[InThePrayerCloset]

9 hours ago, calimojo said:

I am curious as to why you quoted me here.  I was not implying anything specific about josh.  My point was that if he had been looking at child porn, that this information probably would have been discovered by now, because he was clearly not very good at covering his tracks. 

I think that Buzzard and others have hit the nail on the head.  Josh's issues were as much about power as they were sexual excitement.  I don't personally get the impression that he is seeking out sexual encounters with minors.  I think he was an opportunistic aggressor who used his position of power in the family to intimidate and likely try to meet his twisted sexual needs. 

<snip>

All we know for sure, is he molested some of his sisters and a family friend, and that he was on several online dating sites, and internet porn and had at least 2 rough encounters outside of his marriage..  that is all bad enough,  and honestly, I hope there is no more.  As entertaining as it has been to watch the family squirm, underneath it all it is tragic and pathetic.  I hope no one else was victimized by him.  I hope that he is able to manage his urges around those who are weaker, smaller and under his control.  I hope that no other woman signed on for some random sex only to be subjected to rough and aggressive sex she didn't consent to. <snip>

I agree with both you and Buzzard - opportunistic person keen to exert power and control. I didn't mean to target you specifically in any way, was just responding generally to the points you (and others) raised - i suck a bit at multiple quotations, so i apologise if you felt that i had unfairly singled out you, this wasn't my intention. 

But at the same time, we can say that he (or anyone else) hasn't accessed a deviant and illegal material because it hasn't been uncovered by inTouch or in a google search... i doubt that we would ever know if he ever accessed child pornography, unless or until criminal proceedings were in place. Fogel, for e.g., was under surveillance for 2+ years before it hit the press.

As @AmazonGrace said, I'm assuming, of course, that no one here is on a dark web, peer-to-peer image server where you must share a unique child exploitation image to see or talk to others?! This is not the stuff that is usually uncovered by a nosey reporter or an effective use of FOIA. And it is certainly not something that would be disclosed in a "family statement" if it were happening... affairs are completely legal, while unacceptable in his (and many other) communities. Child exploitation will get you 25 yrs if you're lucky... 

That said, i agree with 99.9% of your post above, and i also hope that there is nothing more sinister hidden or will come out in the future.

[Whoosh]

4 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

The thing is he wasn't given the help he needed, and the thrill of or satisfaction from the acts were more of an incentive than his punishments were a deterrent. Plus, assuming they regularly relied on "the rod," having the same punishment for lying as you do for molesting your sisters doesn't really discourage molesting your sisters.....

I think both of these are really, really huge points.  We talk a lot about the fact that whatever help/punishment he did receive does not at all seem to be the type of help that experts would think might be particularly helpful in effecting change in this situation.  I have not seen as many people discussing the second point and I personally think it is really well phrased here.  I would take it a step further, even.  I think it is really important that we understand a bit about teaching right from wrong.  If the code of right vs wrong that we teach a child is disconnected from any type of harms the behavior may create, that is going to have some pretty big consequences and they are not going to be great.  And if all sin is equal, we all know no one likely really means to send this message, but at that point how is what Josh did necessarily worse than stealing a cookie?  This is a very real problem and struggle for kids who are not taught that various behaviors are wrong for logical or sensible reasons and that those wrongs do indeed exist in a hierarchy.  This would not, of course, create the urge commit a specific act, but if the urge is there it will have an impact.

[Catey]

I think that only time will tell.

He will either be able to control himself and be properly shamed/educated/exhausted or despite all the public embarrassment, family pressure and moral influence he will again engage in some form of behavior that WILL eventually come to light.

If he has some seriously deviant traits he will only be able to "white-knuckle" it for so long till that breaks free.  

 

If after all this hoopla he does something sexually inappropriate (beyond what society in general would consider within the norm) then yes I think it would be fair to assume that there is more to him than a shitty upbringing or excessive repression.

If not then yes I would think that this is more behavioural then a pathologic issue. 

[Buzzard]

I think this is the first time any duggar has experienced REAL repercussions.  I dont want to derail into a spanking discussion, but one of the major issues with spanking is that when its over, its over.  I see plenty of kids in my world who say flat out "I was gonna take the whippin" for doing what they wanted to do.  They do a cost/benefit analysis and go for it.  

When your primary reason for behaving is fear I dont think it really works.  Fear of god/fear of a rod is pretty much the same thing.  Positive reinforcement - I do good because thats the right thing to do and doing good makes me and my family happy - is much more effective.  The Duggars have never really done good.  They fake donate to food kitchen, they hold yard sales only when TLC needs a plot line, they go on missioncations to show the world and themselves how much better they are than others.  Hell, Joshy couldnt even really donate to a single mother's charity. He had to bring a carnival bear, make it a plot point, and then boast about it on instagram. They function out of fear and in worship of the almighty dollar.

Joshy's actions have brought public ridicule, lost them the show, and destroyed their empire.  He is actually being punished for his actions, not just with Jesus Jail, but with tangible and long lasting repercussions.  Boob and Michelle are seeing real criticism for their inaction, also costing them the empire.  Time will tell if Jill and Jessa learn that lying does more than make baby jesus cry.  Real world consequences for bad behavior.  Thats where its at.

[ljohnson2006]

Maybe they'll name GrandDuggar 5.0 Mirycle. (Miracle).  It's a miracle Anna hasn't been able to find a way to divorce Smugs yet.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, ljohnson2006 said:

Maybe they'll name GrandDuggar 5.0 Mirycle. (Miracle).  It's a miracle Anna hasn't been able to find a way to divorce Smugs yet.

If there is an M5 I dont expect an "m."  They need to break the mold and be different, the duggar brand is burned.  I expect the name to mean "rebirth," "forgiveness," "mercy,"  or "love."

[ljohnson2006]

Mercy is an M. And they could spell it weirdly. Mersy. Merci. Mersie.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

18 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

If there is an M5 I dont expect an "m."  They need to break the mold and be different, the duggar brand is burned.  I expect the name to mean "rebirth," "forgiveness," "mercy,"  or "love."

I actually don't expect there will be an M5. Anna has mad it clear she's not staying with Josh because of love for him, rather fear of God. But, I think, she's going to not be so interested in sex with him. And, if she's not pushing it, I doubt he will. I mean, we saw her all but beg Josh for M3 or M4. Even then, I saw that as Josh wasn't having sex with her regularly because she phrases it as having to ask Josh when the next baby would come. 

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

I actually don't expect there will be an M5. Anna has mad it clear she's not staying with Josh because of love for him, rather fear of God. But, I think, she's going to not be so interested in sex with him. And, if she's not pushing it, I doubt he will. I mean, we saw her all but beg Josh for M3 or M4. Even then, I saw that as Josh wasn't having sex with her regularly because she phrases it as having to ask Josh when the next baby would come. 

Anna is baby crazy.  Remember the episode with their RV trip and how googly eyed she got when the cow was giving birth? I think she's in the marriage for the babies, and with the help of the J'slaves shes still all set as far as childcare. 

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 I agree that we don't know what really goes on, and I also agree that different personalities will respond differently the same situation.  Add to that, no two children, even twins, experience exactly the same situation as they grow up even in the same family.

 

Yes. Out of four children in my family of origin, only one was a career criminal heroin addict, may he rest in peace. The rest of us became upstanding and productive citizens. I always told my mom to stop feeling guilty because there was just something in him prompting him to be how he was.

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

When your primary reason for behaving is fear I dont think it really works.

I concur. Fear doesn't change behavior, but teaches how to avoid consequences.

[JDuggs]

Long time lurker, first time commenter. I've been following Anna's story very closely because I found out within the past year that my husband was unfaithful to me. The situation isn't exactly like Anna and Josh. For example, my husband says he didn't have sex with the other woman, but there was some physical contact and they were "in love." Also, this happened several years ago when we had already been married for over a decade. Right now, I'm staying married. It's very conflicting for everyone to just say throw the bum out because there are always different circumstances and everything is not always  black and white. My husband finally admitted to me that he has been very depressed for a long time. His affair was a way to bring some excitement into his mundane life. It still hurts but it's reasonable. Now he's been treated for depression, we're in marriage counseling and he says he wants to be faithful to me. Maybe I'm making the wrong decision, but I am giving him another chance.  I know that Josh has a lot of horrible issues but if he says that he wants to change, I understand why Anna is trying to make her marriage work. She wants back what she thought she had. Forgiveness is a huge part of their faith. If Josh wants forgiveness, Anna feels like he deserves it.

[Bad Wolf]

@JDuggs only you know what's right for you. Take time and remember to breathe. Good luck.