Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 4

[vienna]

This time, anna is reacting the way she is supposed to. But she is a human beeing with feelings that are song enough, when it comes to adultery, that even the brainwashing can not hold them down. She admitted that she was thinking about something else than staying with him ("If I would have done what I felt like I would make a mess turn into a disaster " or something like that). So next time he cheats on her or is caught with porn, and this will happen, it will be very interesting to see how she deals with it. Years down the road she might be the one breaking free. I doubt it but I sure hope so.

[luv2laugh]

I think she'll stay but over the years, she will end up putting more energy into her children and investing her love for them rather than Josh. She will have to put up a wall between her and Josh to stop getting hurt by him. Eventually, I think Josh will be the one to leave because Anna will never do it, whereas, I don't think Josh likes living as a conservative fundamentalist anymore. In DC, he was becoming more fundie-light each year.

[missegeno]

Disagree. Anna does not appear very devastated on TV. If she wanted to show that she was devastated, she would have mentioned that.... Disagree. You can have Josh come babysit your children, but I would not feel safe with him around mine. I don't think I have to say anything more about it. Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Anna wanted people to know that she was devastated, she would have mentioned that. But if she was part of the Gothard cult that teaches forgiveness of these things as a sign of faith in God, she would talk about pulling closer to God to get through the tough time. Instead of focusing on her devastation, a Gothardly woman would want to show that she, as the vagina-haver, is reflecting on how she can better honor her commitments to God and her headship. Seems to me that's exactly what she did, and she even discussed how it is really hard and was such a betrayal and she cried repeatedly. I'm not sure how much more devastated one can appear while keeping Gothardly sweet and toeing the line.

And I don't think anyone on FJ would put their children in Josh's care. Seeing no evidence of a current sexual danger to his kids is not the same thing as thinking he has any merits with children.

[luv2laugh]

You have to look at the body language when someone is talking, not just the script or a recap to gain a full understanding of what is being said. So, I decided to do a re-watch on Anna speaking about it in the episode. My opinion on it has not changed, basically she answered every question very matter- of factly, sometimes with a big smile, and she mostly came off as defensive rather than devastated, which is fine, I can understand that since basically the entire public hates her husband and she loves him. I ALMOST believe that part of this was prep for her speaking engagements that she and Josh will go on will he returns when they lecture to couples on marital affairs because the way she spoke was that of a teacher lecturing to others in a similar situation about this, not the telling of true, genuine Anna feelings. No doubt about it, Anna is upset. Who wouldn't? Anna is NOT a robot. However, my opinion has not changed, and my belief is that Anna is staying because she truly wants to, not because she is being forced to by the conservative Christian culture.  Again, she came off more defensive, along with appearing to lecture others in a similar situation, rather than devastated in the interview.I have some of the script below 

BODY LANGUAGE IS A LOT

The past few months have had a lot of change. All of the news about Joshua's teenage wrong choices came out and my husband resigned from his job.

Q: Can you explain why you stood by him during the scandal?

I knew about this long before it hit the press. Not long after Joshua and I met,  we visited his family and while we were there he shared with my parents, his life story, the good the bad and the ugly. He was very detailed and very honest with my parents .... When the police report was released, it wasn't easy reading through it and just kind of having to almost relive what Joshua had done, it was a shocking thing but at the same time there wasn't new information for my heart so it was just kind of like flipping open an old wound.  (She did not seem shocked , disgusted, or upset in explaining this portion. She appeared very relaxed, matter of fact, and genuine about everything she said.)

Q: Explains the next scandal.

Things were definitely calming down in the media when Meredith was born.... and the second wave of media reports came out about Joshua's unfaithfulness, I was shocked, and I was just like there's no way, like who would write something like this and so my first reaction really was denial and I was really hurt that someone would think that about my husband because I really thought everything was okay and that we had a strong marriage. I think initially I was really speechless and I didn't know what to say, it just felt like a bad dream, it didn't seem possible, and I was like I'm going to wake up and everything's going to be ok and this really, this can't be true but it was definitely a hard thing and I think it is such a betrayal for a spouse to go through what we're walking through and it was hard to realize that it was such a public thing and so not only was it a betrayal against me but also for those that call themselves Christians because here we were everyone was able to see us get married and its a vow to be loyal to each other and that loyalty was broken and so for my heart it was like how could this happen in our marriage? (Starts to get teary-eyed) Josh is my first love, he's my one and only but I knew that my only hope was to cling to my faith because if I went off what I was feeling I'd turn a mess into a disaster, so in the stun and the shock of everything I was just praying God help me to know how to respond and I didn't know what to do I knew we needed help and I was just praying that we would know how to take the next step.

Q: What are your plans regarding your marriage?

(Not teary eyed... probably filmed at a different time or sequence) You know when your world is shattered there are a lot of emotions that you have to walk through and I think initially it was just crying and crying and then you get to the place where you can't cry anymore and then you get up and you start to go on with life and I know there are those that feel that I have a right to walk away from this marriage and I respect other people's views, but in my heart, when I got married, I vowed to God first, and then to Joshua for better for worse til death do we part and, (Starts to cry) God has unfailing love for me, and He's loved me and forgiven me for so much and I pray that I would be an extension of God's love to Joshua, that I would love and forgive him and wait patiently and allow God to work in our hearts and my prayer and my heart's desire is for our marriage to be restored. (Stops crying) I think it is true that we go through difficult times, it can either destroy your life or make you stronger (smiles) and so I think, my purpose and my desire through all of this is for each member of our family, that we would turn our hearts to God and come out stronger.

Again, I'm sure she is devastated, again Anna is not a robot, however, her intention was NOT to show that to the public. She wants to come off as defensive of her husband in regard to the media, instructional, and matter-of-fact. It was basically a practice run of her speaking engagement material. Again, Anna is human, she just did not show true, genuine Anna feelings in this interview.

 

[missegeno]

I completely agree that Anna is staying with Josh because she wants to. I am sure there is pressure, but I think she does want to stay as well. My disagreement was simply to say that she seemed devastated to me.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

I got a different take on all that.  She IS devastated & trying as hard as she can to get past it. Some day that will crack and the walls will come down. When they were sitting around Jessa's living room & she was talking, just general conversation, she picked up Meredith & fought as hard as she could to choke back the tears. I wonder how many times a day she has to do that.

[luv2laugh]

2 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

I got a different take on all that.  She IS devastated & trying as hard as she can to get past it. Some day that will crack and the walls will come down. When they were sitting around Jessa's living room & she was talking, just general conversation, she picked up Meredith & fought as hard as she could to choke back the tears. I wonder how many times a day she has to do that.

I didn't watch that one yet. Is this in the third episode? I'm sure she is devastated, again Anna is not a robot, however, her intention was NOT to show that to the public. She wants to come off as defensive of her husband in regard to the media, instructional, and matter-of-fact. It was basically a practice run of her speaking engagement material. 

[Cleopatra7]

My question is whether Josh and Anna could really do the speaking circuit after he comes home from Jesus Rehab. If it was just Joshley Madison it'd be one thing, but there's also the molestation scandal. While there's debate in another thread about whether Josh can considered a pedophile from a clinical perspective, for most people in the American public, he already is, regardless of what the medical establishment says. Not too many people are going to pay money to be lectured about how to have a strong marriage from a serial molester (unless you're Bill Gothard). I suppose the Duggars will always be welcomed by hardcore ATIers, but that number is getting smaller all the time. If the Duggars have become persona non grata at homeschool conventions, they've lost their bread and butter.  

[MatthewDuggar]

22 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My question is whether Josh and Anna could really do the speaking circuit after he comes home from Jesus Rehab. If it was just Joshley Madison it'd be one thing, but there's also the molestation scandal. While there's debate in another thread about whether Josh can considered a pedophile from a clinical perspective, for most people in the American public, he already is, regardless of what the medical establishment says. Not too many people are going to pay money to be lectured about how to have a strong marriage from a serial molester (unless you're Bill Gothard). I suppose the Duggars will always be welcomed by hardcore ATIers, but that number is getting smaller all the time. If the Duggars have become persona non grata at homeschool conventions, they've lost their bread and butter.  

Yes, there are plenty of adoring fans that will line up to hear about how much this has made them stronger, blah, blah, blah...  I won't be the least bit surprised when and if this happens.  Personally, I think they need to just hunker down and focus on being a normal family.  The M kids must be massively confused.  I wonder how they are treated at the TTH.  I'm sure they are forming bonds with the other D kids, all soon to be taken away I'm sure.  I feel for them.

[SassyPants]

35 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My question is whether Josh and Anna could really do the speaking circuit after he comes home from Jesus Rehab. If it was just Joshley Madison it'd be one thing, but there's also the molestation scandal. While there's debate in another thread about whether Josh can considered a pedophile from a clinical perspective, for most people in the American public, he already is, regardless of what the medical establishment says. Not too many people are going to pay money to be lectured about how to have a strong marriage from a serial molester (unless you're Bill Gothard). I suppose the Duggars will always be welcomed by hardcore ATIers, but that number is getting smaller all the time. If the Duggars have become persona non grata at homeschool conventions, they've lost their bread and butter.  

I agree. The only hope for their marriage, their ability to go on to live productive lives and to have at least one productive career,  is for them to disengage from JB's cult and to move to a more mainstream way of life and faith group. Their union will not survive JB and Gothard's rule. They need to actively control family size, get some education and seek steady employment away from Duggarville. 

[Fascinated]

I have a different take on Anna, too. It seems to me that she is devastated but trying to keep it together during the tv interview, which she knows will be watched by some leghumpers but also by many detractors. I'm sure she knows the general consensus about her husband, whom she apparently loves, and who is the father of her young children. My reaction upon seeing her was that I was very impressed with her strength in light of the situation. She appears to be carrying on and drawing close to the Duggar family, who are clearly giving her a lot of support. 

[Drala]

The fact is, it's hard to know how to label Josh's behavior as an adolescent because all we have is a police report and a lot of obfuscation by his parents.  He never had an assessment.   It's a little easier to label his adult sexual behavior as adultery, but even that becomes nuanced by his own claims of porn addiction and Danica's tale of deviance.  Again, he's never had a full-on clinical assessment.

Given the overall lack of clinical information, I have to go with the working diagnosis of "He's a sick fuck."

[Whoosh]

I am just going to point out one final time (in this thread where we have been talking about it) that there really is no debate as to what the word pedophile means in the medical community.  It doesn't mean "touched a child" or even "raped a child" or anything even remotely like that.  It isn't about behavior (though child molestation is a frequent resulting behavior of the underlying disorder) - it is about being primarily sexually attracted to children.  I get that the general public doesn't get that and doesn't get why it matters - I don't expect much from the general population.  I am rather annoyed and disappointed by what I have read on FJ over the past 7 months, but that is my issue and nothing more.

I will say this - the general public has pretty much already won the battle.  Just like many other medical terms, the diagnosis of pedophilia has already been dropped to some extent by the medical community.  It is now "pedophilic disorder" in the DSM 5.  I expect by the time the next revision rolls around that will be dropped as well and it will be labeled something else entirely, but perhaps not.  Time will tell on that one.

Anyway, what is happening here is what we have discussed in a variety of other threads.  A clinical term meant to assist in the understanding, detection, assessment, treatment, and dealing with the aftermath of pedophilia has been stripped of it's usefulness and meaning by people who are unwilling to understand the distinction between "primarily sexually attracted to children" and "molests children".  I am not sure why "child molester" isn't descriptive or degrading enough for people, but it clearly isn't.  Perhaps incorrect use of the word (particularly after being made aware of the actual meaning) makes people think they appear more intelligent or knowledgable, but the effect is quite the opposite.

So I am pretty much just saying that I, personally, am throwing in the towel.  People don't need to understand the difference or why it matters and if that lack of understanding harms people and/or slows progress in stopping and/or preventing child molestation and/or pedophelia - so be it.  The word has already traveled most of the way toward relegation to the awkward category of insults such as insane, moron, idiot, retarded, etc.

 

[Fascinated]

5 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I am just going to point out one final time (in this thread where we have been talking about it) that there really is no debate as to what the word pedophile means clinically.  It doesn't mean "touched a child" or even "raped a child" or anything even remotely like that.  It isn't about behavior (though child molestation is a frequent resulting behavior of the underlying disorder) - it is about being primarily sexually attracted to children.  I get that the general public doesn't get that - I don't expect much from the general population.  I am rather annoyed and disappointed by what I have read on FJ over the past 7 months, but that is my issue and nothing more.

I will say this - the general public has pretty much already won the battle.  Just like many other medical terms, the diagnosis of pedophilia has already been dropped to some extent by the medical community.  It is now "pedophilic disorder" in the DSM 5.  I expect by the time the next revision rolls around that will be dropped as well and it will be labeled something else entirely, but perhaps not.  Time will tell on that one.

Anyway, what is happening here is what we have discussed in a variety of other threads.  A clinical term meant to assist in the understanding, detection, assessment, treatment, and dealing with the aftermath of pedophilia has been stripped of it's usefulness and meaning by people who are unwilling to understand the distinction between "primarily sexually attracted to children" and "molests children".  I am not sure why "child molester" isn't descriptive or degrading enough for people, but it clearly isn't.

So I am pretty much just saying that I, personally, am throwing in the towel.  People don't need to understand the difference or why it matters and if that lack of understanding harms people and/or slows progress in stopping and/or preventing child molestation and/or pedophelia - so be it.  The word has already traveled most of the way toward relegation to the awkward category of insults such as insane, moron, idiot, retarded, etc.

 

[sophie10130]

It's also why there are some doctors and psychologists who don't think pedophilia can be "cured" but child molesters can be reformed. You can make a person stop molesting children, but you can't make a pedophile stop being attracted to children. Or so they think. This could change in the future, obviously.

It seems like splitting hairs, and like people are trying to say one is better than the other, but it's an important distinction that needs to be made.

I think people lump them together because they both deal with adults taking advantage of children and they are both terrible, but they are different.

[Whoosh]

Thank you sophie.  I know I said I am done, but your post made me think of one other thing I want to say.  Understanding the distinction is important in so many ways, whether you are the guy trying to determine who might be at risk for becoming a child sex offender, or the gal trying to prevent high risk individuals from actually offending, or the guy trying to teach kids how to best protect themselves from victimization if at all possible (not trying to victim blame at all here), or the gal trying to identify and catch the perpetrator in a case of child molestation, or the guy trying to determine who is likely to reoffend, or whether you are the team trying to figure out what in the fuck to do with the offender once they are caught.  Not sure how we make progress on the overall issue of child molestation and sexual abuse if people think none of that matters.

Everyone knows it's all BAAAAAAD.  It's bad.  Real bad.  All of it.  That isn't the point of making the distinction at all.

OK!  Sorry - really doubt there is anything left I have yet to try to express to some extent.  Over and out!

ETA - I should maybe say I THINK everyone regularly posting on FJ knows it's all BAAAAD - or at least most everyone.  It would be extremely helpful if people including myself would do their damnedest to avoid giving the impression otherwise.

[Dandruff]

7 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Q: What are your plans regarding your marriage?

(Not teary eyed... probably filmed at a different time or sequence) You know when your world is shattered there are a lot of emotions that you have to walk through and I think initially it was just crying and crying and then you get to the place where you can't cry anymore and then you get up and you start to go on with life and I know there are those that feel that I have a right to walk away from this marriage and I respect other people's views, but in my heart, when I got married, I vowed to God first, and then to Joshua for better for worse til death do we part and, (Starts to cry) God has unfailing love for me, and He's loved me and forgiven me for so much and I pray that I would be an extension of God's love to Joshua, that I would love and forgive him and wait patiently and allow God to work in our hearts and my prayer and my heart's desire is for our marriage to be restored. (Stops crying) I think it is true that we go through difficult times, it can either destroy your life or make you stronger (smiles) and so I think, my purpose and my desire through all of this is for each member of our family, that we would turn our hearts to God and come out stronger.

This tells me that Anna believes God brought her together with Josh, she's acknowledging that the marriage is broken, and she's praying for God to bring them back together.  She's not suggesting there's anything she might personally do (aside from pray) to bring them back together.  And there isn't a single word about Josh wanting, trying for, or praying for the same thing.

[gustava]

5 hours ago, Whoosh said:

I am just going to point out one final time (in this thread where we have been talking about it) that there really is no debate as to what the word pedophile means in the medical community.  It doesn't mean "touched a child" or even "raped a child" or anything even remotely like that.  It isn't about behavior (though child molestation is a frequent resulting behavior of the underlying disorder) - it is about being primarily sexually attracted to children.  I get that the general public doesn't get that and doesn't get why it matters - I don't expect much from the general population.  I am rather annoyed and disappointed by what I have read on FJ over the past 7 months, but that is my issue and nothing more.

I will say this - the general public has pretty much already won the battle.  Just like many other medical terms, the diagnosis of pedophilia has already been dropped to some extent by the medical community.  It is now "pedophilic disorder" in the DSM 5.  I expect by the time the next revision rolls around that will be dropped as well and it will be labeled something else entirely, but perhaps not.  Time will tell on that one.

Anyway, what is happening here is what we have discussed in a variety of other threads.  A clinical term meant to assist in the understanding, detection, assessment, treatment, and dealing with the aftermath of pedophilia has been stripped of it's usefulness and meaning by people who are unwilling to understand the distinction between "primarily sexually attracted to children" and "molests children".  I am not sure why "child molester" isn't descriptive or degrading enough for people, but it clearly isn't.  Perhaps incorrect use of the word (particularly after being made aware of the actual meaning) makes people think they appear more intelligent or knowledgable, but the effect is quite the opposite.

So I am pretty much just saying that I, personally, am throwing in the towel.  People don't need to understand the difference or why it matters and if that lack of understanding harms people and/or slows progress in stopping and/or preventing child molestation and/or pedophelia - so be it.  The word has already traveled most of the way toward relegation to the awkward category of insults such as insane, moron, idiot, retarded, etc.

 

Someone near and dear to me was sexually molested by her stepfather when she was between 11-13.  He was conditioning her sister, younger by three years, to move into her place, as she aged out of his range.  He's a pedophile and was so adjudicated and spent over a decade as a guest of the state.  I AGREE WITH YOU, that we are throwing around words and diagnoses without proper foundation. 

I think the best diagnosis is what someone said above:  He's a sick fuck.

 

[Percy]

After watching the episode where Meredith's sex is revealed, I think Josh being exposed in the AM thing almost did him a favour.  He was physically distancing himself from his wife at the time, and Probably emotionally as well.  By being exposed he had to make a choice, to reconnect with his wife or to leave and explore.

I think he chose the safe route of staying but I don't know if it will save his marriage in the long term.  He was already showing his lack of feeling for Anna and I don't think you can force feelings.  

I think he was feeling guilty and did not want to hurt Anna and his family any more and so agreed to Jesus camp.

The problem is that he is getting no treatment or insight into why he behaved this way so the chances are he will repeat the behaviour.   I Feel sorry for Anna as I believe she does love Josh.

[Whoosh]

21 minutes ago, gustava said:

Someone near and dear to me was sexually molested by her stepfather when she was between 11-13.  He was conditioning her sister, younger by three years, to move into her place, as she aged out of his range.  He's a pedophile and was so adjudicated and spent over a decade as a guest of the state.  I AGREE WITH YOU, that we are throwing around words and diagnoses without proper foundation. 

I think the best diagnosis is what someone said above:  He's a sick fuck.

 

Just want to say I am so sorry this happened.  

[Bad Wolf]

Not diagnosing, not calling names. Just stating that Josh's first "curiosity" led him to light touching over the clothes on his older sisters. I'm guess that JB chastised him with the rod because that is what the girls described. According to the Pearls, you apply the rod until the child is broken. Josh's next "mistake" was under the clothes on his younger sisters. At this point he was sent away.

Is Josh a danger to young girls? I don't know. We don't know what really goes on when the cameras are not there. I just don't think that his current therapy will be enough to get at the source of his issues.

[RosyDaisy]

Seriously, Josh had no access to girls his own age? What about the like-minded families who visited and vice versa? What about the ATI conventions? Yeah, that no access thing doesn't fly.

As I've said before, Josh knew what he did was wrong. He did it anyway, and showed no remorse. That's all that matters here. I'm sick of hearing the excuse of his upbringing. It is just that, an excuse, whether those who keep bringing it up mean it to be or not.

As far as whether Josh is a pedophile or not, I don't care. The mental health professionals can argue that one. The fact that the molestations happened multiple times, the youngest victim being 5 years old, and allegedly sexually assaulting a grown womam, just screams repeat offender to me. It also screams that he is a danger to women and children.

[MoonFace]

8 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My question is whether Josh and Anna could really do the speaking circuit after he comes home from Jesus Rehab. If it was just Joshley Madison it'd be one thing, but there's also the molestation scandal. While there's debate in another thread about whether Josh can considered a pedophile from a clinical perspective, for most people in the American public, he already is, regardless of what the medical establishment says. Not too many people are going to pay money to be lectured about how to have a strong marriage from a serial molester (unless you're Bill Gothard). I suppose the Duggars will always be welcomed by hardcore ATIers, but that number is getting smaller all the time. If the Duggars have become persona non grata at homeschool conventions, they've lost their bread and butter.  

If there is a nickle to be made from this disaster JB will find a way to make it happen. 

Here is how it will go down: 

Ok, Josh.   You've screwed up and cost the family their livelihood.   You've had your chance to go BACK to Jesus and confess and get square with him.   Now it's time for you to kneel down and come back to Papa and get square with ME!   You will go out on the circuit and confess publicly how you screwed up (down, and sideways) and brought shame on the Duggar name (oh, and Jesus too!).   You will bring your (empty headed) wife along so that you can show that it's Happy Family Time again.   You two will get up there and smile and cry and beg forgiveness until you fill up the family coffers again.  

If you do a good job maybe we can send you out on the mission field too.   You know, good boy was secretly naughty but look how Jesus took away your sin and lustful thoughts.    Now you are in a position to show the world how Duggar Jesus saves. 

Anna - you make sure you keep nodding your (empty) little head as you look at him adoringly because now he really is a Daddy God fearing man who knows his place. And it wouldn't hurt to keep putting that saltpeter in his food - just to be sure - as soon as he knocks you up again.   

[iknowright]

I just have to say that Anna staying in the house with her children with her inlays scream to me that the Duggars are the ones who are in control.  Anna has been brainwashed since she was young that this is the normal path to dealing with a "marital crisis."  The problem is, this has NOTHING to do with her marriage. Josh has an addiction...and THAT has affected his marriage.  

I'm sure her parents encourage her to stay with the Duggar's.  I would have hope if she separated from Josh and were on her own for a while getting her own counseling with a real, trained, professional counselor with a real degree.  But that has never happened.  She has NEVER faced life to find out who she is, let alone who did she marry.  So, in staying with the Duggars, she will not get a chance to live outside of the bubble and is only being retrained into staying.  

Let's face it, if she leaves Josh, the Duggars have EVERYTHING to lose and then so does Gothard and his whole little world.  So much hinges on her staying with Josh.  

This just really is a cult and she is a member of it.  

[Toothfairy]

You can be a pedophile without molesting children. It's a sexual attraction to children. Then you can sexual molest children. Attraction doesn't mean abuse. But it can lead to abuse