Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 4

[Boogalou]

The discussion of the Anna and the four M children continues here.  

Part 3 is here http://www.freejinger.org/topic/24834-anna-duggar-and-the-m-kids-part-3/

[foreign fundie]

A few pages back Buzzard wrote a post that made me think. About Anna in the dorm, selling the house and all that. 

If Josh was remorseful and motivated and fully eager to make a new start at clean fundie life, and I was JB, I would make sure there was a good house waiting for him and some work lined up  so that all he had to do was kiss his radiant wife on the doorstep and get right back into his role as headship. 

As it is, there is not even a room waiting that he and Anna can share and no hint of an independent life. This can mean several things, apart from the often mentioned (and plausable) 'JB wants to keep Anna on the leash'.

1. JB (and/or Anna) is not sure Josh wants Anna back. By sucking her and the kids into his family he makes sure that if Josh refuses to see Anna, he can't see his children or his family either. So it becomes a lot harder to choose divorce.

2. JB is not sure Josh wants to stay fundie. Maybe Josh wants his family back but not his parents' cult. By taking his house, and bringing his family firmly under his umbrella, Josh has little chance at starting a new-less-fundie life with his own family.

3. JB wants to punish Josh and humiliate him by taking his house and his family. How would an average male feel if his wife was put in a dorm with his sisters and was under his dad's control? I bet it sucks.

4. Maybe JB knows that Josh doesn't really want Anna or the cult, just a place to stay, some work and weekends with his kids. Again this could be JB saying that he will not give Josh ant kind of support unless he takes the whole package

In going along with the current arrangements, Anna does not only deprive herself, but also Josh of options. He will either be a homeless, lonely outcast or he will have to come back asking daddy for a place to sleep, money and for his kids and if he wants her, Anna. Daddy can then set the conditions. Stick to Anna alone and follow the cult.

Now, to me personally, from Josh point of view, restoring the marriage with such a loyal wife seems a great idea. But if that is not what he wants, he still is more or less being forced. And that will never last.

Bottom line, for love to be healthy it must be voluntary. But both Josh and Anna are left with little choice and will soon have their second arranged marriage with less freedom and less innocence and hope than before.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

45 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

A few pages back Buzzard wrote a post that made me think. About Anna in the dorm, selling the house and all that. 

If Josh was remorseful and motivated and fully eager to make a new start at clean fundie life, and I was JB, I would make sure there was a good house waiting for him and some work lined up  so that all he had to do was kiss his radiant wife on the doorstep and get right back into his role as headship. 

As it is, there is not even a room waiting that he and Anna can share and no hint of an independent life. This can mean several things, apart from the often mentioned (and plausable) 'JB wants to keep Anna on the leash'.

1. JB (and/or Anna) is not sure Josh wants Anna back. By sucking her and the kids into his family he makes sure that if Josh refuses to see Anna, he can't see his children or his family either. So it becomes a lot harder to choose divorce.

2. JB is not sure Josh wants to stay fundie. Maybe Josh wants his family back but not his parents' cult. By taking his house, and bringing his family firmly under his umbrella, Josh has little chance at starting a new-less-fundie life with his own family.

3. JB wants to punish Josh and humiliate him by taking his house and his family. How would an average male feel if his wife was put in a dorm with his sisters and was under his dad's control? I bet it sucks.

4. Maybe JB knows that Josh doesn't really want Anna or the cult, just a place to stay, some work and weekends with his kids. Again this could be JB saying that he will not give Josh ant kind of support unless he takes the whole package

In going along with the current arrangements, Anna does not only deprive herself, but also Josh of options. He will either be a homeless, lonely outcast or he will have to come back asking daddy for a place to sleep, money and for his kids and if he wants her, Anna. Daddy can then set the conditions. Stick to Anna alone and follow the cult.

Now, to me personally, from Josh point of view, restoring the marriage with such a loyal wife seems a great idea. But if that is not what he wants, he still is more or less being forced. And that will never last.

Bottom line, for love to be healthy it must be voluntary. But both Josh and Anna are left with little choice and will soon have their second arranged marriage with less freedom and less innocence and hope than before.

See, I don't think it's that manipulative. I think that it really comes down to options. Josh and Anna don't have options at this point. Josh failed at the car lot and he failed his job with a politician. JB has no way of providing Josh with a job now, unless Josh just works with him on fixing up properties. But, I haven't heard of the Duggars buying up any property recently.

Neither Josh nor Anna has any prospects beyond those that JB can procure because of their cult's limitations. It may very well be that the Duggars are realizing that, but don't quite know how to handle it now that things have happened the way they have.

Now, they're hardly without living arrangements in the compound. I'm sure that if/when Josh comes back, they can live in the guest house for a while. And, really, there's nothing to say that Anna is living in the girl's room permanently, she very well could be living outside the house but the Duggars decided it was better to give the impression that she was living with them to give her privacy (since we know that leghumpers aren't above doing things like knocking on Jill's door and asking if she's given birth yet). Or, she could have been staying there between visits to see her family. 

That said, for now, I think there best option is to live at his parents' house. It's terribly limiting, yes, but it gives their kids structure, it gives Anna support, Josh can focus on getting his life together in whatever means that requires, and they don't have the financial obligations of things like providing housing for their family. 

Also, It could very well be that this was a wake up call to the whole family and more of them, Josh and/or Anna included, are taking this as a sign that education is a lot more important than they originally believed. Josh may take the opportunity when he gets back from wherever he is to take courses and earn a degree so that he can support his family better. Or, maybe, Anna is taking the opportunity to create some kind of professional life for herself so that she can support the family. Living at his parents' house would give both of them the support they need while they get the training/experience they need to get a real, honest job that will support their family. 

Finally, because Josh isn't at home and because he's not working, Anna is currently without income. Without income, she can't take care of her family and a home by herself. Living with his parents affords enough room for her and her children (which living with her family wouldn't) while also giving them access to food, clothes, running water, heat, etc. Furthermore, biblically and culturally speaking, Anna belongs to his family now, rather than her own, which puts the responsibility of taking her in on his family, not hers. 

[MatthewDuggar]

Since Anna is sharing a bed with Jana in the dorm, I wonder what the plans are when Josh returns?  Since his house was sold, they'll either have to rent or somehow scrape up money (from JB?) to buy again.  That'll take some time.  Have we figured out if anyone is staying in the barn guest loft?  How will Anna and Josh have any private time in the TTH?

[foreign fundie]

Biblically speaking that is not the case. A man should leave his parents and start a new family unit. A girl is never property or the responsibility of her in-laws.

That said, Anna and Josh may not have many options, I am sure JB has. He has money to support her living independently for these few months. This was not a necessity. There were many ways the whole clan could have supported her and the kids in independence rather than absorbing them.

This is not about support but about control. Starting over in a healthy way becomes hard like this. Even though in the short run Anna may enjoy being looked after and have no adult resonsibilities.

[Percy]

Jana's bed seems to be in a private space in the girls room. Wall on one side, vanity on the other and bed head against a third wall, unless the foot of the bed faces open space.  I wonder if she resents having this space invaded?

[EmCatlyn]

5 minutes ago, MatthewDuggar said:

Since Anna is sharing a bed with Jana in the dorm, I wonder what the plans are when Josh returns?  Since his house was sold, they'll either have to rent or somehow scrape up money (from JB?) to buy again.  That'll take some time.  Have we figured out if anyone is staying in the barn guest loft?  How will Anna and Josh have any private time in the TTH?

Anna is not sharing a bed with Jana.  Jana's bed seems to have been turned over to Anna.  My guess is that Anna may be sharing the bed with one or more of her kids. 

Jana and Tabitha (who is probably also in the girls' dorm) are probably in Jill and Jessa's old beds.  The little M's may be sleeping on cots or sharing beds with each other and/or mom or maybe a young "aunt-playmate".

As for the future, when Josh returns the whole family might return to the house where they were living before. The Llc that owns it is partly owned by Josh and his family.  They could probably have use of it, if it hasn't been rented out.

[Guest]

I forgot about Tabitha! So in the girls' room, we have:

1. Anna

2. Tabitha

3. Jana

4. Jinger

5. Joy

6. Johannah

7. Jennifer

8. Jordyn

9. Josie

10. Mackynzie

11. Meredith

(And also possibly Michael and Marcus, or are they in the boys room?)

All of this in a room with 5 real beds (I think I remember that each of the oldest 5 girls got their own beds with their names engraved, a couple were doubles and a couple were twins), and one bunk bed, correct? It sounds like summer camp from hell.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Anna is not penniless.  She should have gotten a check-- or 3-- from TLC.  Now whether or not that money went straight into the Duggar Family trust, the fact remains she earned it by baring her soul on camera, so if JB took the checks, he owes her something in return.

 

I also agree that Josh and Anna's house is not gone.  They sold it for a $1.00 to the Duggar Family trust and there must have been some incentive to do that, by which I mean Josh and Anna must get something out of the deal.  I know people think they were hiding assets in case of a lawsuit, but the $50,000 that Josh paid for the house  didn't just disappear. My guess is that he has a part interest in the family trust and a promise from his father that Anna and the kids will always be taken care of.

Remember that trust is a two-way street.  Not only is JB trusting that Josh will get his shit together, JB has to take care of Josh and Anna otherwise things could get very ugly. Josh and Anna could always run to the tabloids or sell a book together or even do a TV appearance where they pull the lid off this "perfect" Christian family and reveal the nasty underbelly.

[DugFan]

Who is Tabitha and why is a non-J female currently under JB's headship??

[Jeebusismycopilot]

5 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

This is not about support but about control.

It is entirely about control. While watching her TH in the specials, you could see that she was struggling to make sure she said the right thing. It was as if she was trying to remember the script JB handed her when it came to answering certain questions. I think that's why a lot of the phrasing seemed odd to me. It was simply parroting what she was told to say in order to toe the Duggar Family line. 

[SassyPants]

Josh Duggar's ace in the hole is the tell all book. He could sell his LIFE story from beginning to 2015 to the highest bidder and move his family off into the non-fundie sunset.

JB should be afraid, very afraid.

Best option for Josh, Anna and their family unit.

3 hours ago, Handmaiden of Dog said:

Anna is not penniless.  She should have gotten a check-- or 3-- from TLC.  Now whether or not that money went straight into the Duggar Family trust, the fact remains she earned it by baring her soul on camera, so if JB took the checks, he owes her something in return.

 

I also agree that Josh and Anna's house is not gone.  They sold it for a $1.00 to the Duggar Family trust and there must have been some incentive to do that, by which I mean Josh and Anna must get something out of the deal.  I know people think they were hiding assets in case of a lawsuit, but the $50,000 that Josh paid for the house  didn't just disappear. My guess is that he has a part interest in the family trust and a promise from his father that Anna and the kids will always be taken care of.

Remember that trust is a two-way street.  Not only is JB trusting that Josh will get his shit together, JB has to take care of Josh and Anna otherwise things could get very ugly. Josh and Anna could always run to the tabloids or sell a book together or even do a TV appearance where they pull the lid off this "perfect" Christian family and reveal the nasty underbelly.

EXACTLY!

[Bethella]

43 minutes ago, DugFan said:

Who is Tabitha and why is a non-J female currently under JB's headship??

Tabitha Paine (Chad Paine's sister) is currently teaching at the Duggars' SOTDRT

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Handmaiden of Dog said:

Anna is not penniless.  She should have gotten a check-- or 3-- from TLC.  Now whether or not that money went straight into the Duggar Family trust, the fact remains she earned it by baring her soul on camera, so if JB took the checks, he owes her something in return.

I also agree that Josh and Anna's house is not gone.  They sold it for a $1.00 to the Duggar Family trust and there must have been some incentive to do that, by which I mean Josh and Anna must get something out of the deal.  I know people think they were hiding assets in case of a lawsuit, but the $50,000 that Josh paid for the house  didn't just disappear. My guess is that he has a part interest in the family trust and a promise from his father that Anna and the kids will always be taken care of.

<snip>

The whole business of the money for the house has never been clear to me. It appears that the house was sold to the "family lawyer" (who was acting on behalf of a Duggar llc that was formed around the same time).

However, we don't know what the sale meant.  (Did Josh and Anna lose use of the house or just lose nominal ownership?)  And we don't know (as you point out) where the money went. (Do Josh and Anna have it in a bank account?  Has it been invested?)  We don't even know how much money was involved.  You are saying the house was sold fo a dollar, but $65,000 or "ten thousand more than they paid for it," has appeared a lot in the news.  And while most people assume that the house had no mortgage (those debt-free Duggars, you know?), I have a vague idea that I read a report that said the house had had a mortgage.  Lastly, the house, which had been bought cheap to be worked on, may have gained more value than what the sold it for.

We also don't know what debts Josh may have had.  We know Josh and Anna had had some problems with owing taxes, and though those were paid off, there may have been others.   So, it is possible that the house was sold to the family llc to raise some cash on the house without losing control over the property which may be rented, lived in and/or sold again at a greater profit.

As for money Anna may have earned from TLC, I am sure it will be used to pay off Josh's expenses/debts or to start Josh's new life or both.

In short, though Josh may be coming home under a cloud and without a job, there is a good chance that there is a place for him and his family to live in, and enough money to start a new business (mowing lawns, selling used bicycles, hawking Bibles) or whatever.  

[umsami]

47 minutes ago, Bethella said:

Tabitha Paine (Chad Paine's sister) is currently teaching at the Duggars' SOTDRT

Sounds like a potential courtship.  No other reason to be there IMHO.  Thing is, living under Boob's roof would make any sane woman run the other way.  Chad seems to have been raised slightly better/kinder than the typical Duggar, one would hope Tabitha is similar. 

 

Although according to the Paine Family blog, Tabitha is 29/30 years old and says, "I have been a live-in tutor to the Duggar children for the past year. Because we don’t do school 24/7 I am able to join in with the family’s work, and fun activities during the weekends and evenings. Hence, the reason why you may see so many pictures! But, I am in no such relationship. I may just be single for the rest of my life 

I sure do enjoy where God has me, and want to do as Jim Elliot encouraged: “Wherever you are; Be all there”! Blessings!"

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

36 minutes ago, umsami said:

Sounds like a potential courtship.  No other reason to be there IMHO.  Thing is, living under Boob's roof would make any sane woman run the other way.  Chad seems to have been raised slightly better/kinder than the typical Duggar, one would hope Tabitha is similar. 

 

Although according to the Paine Family blog, Tabitha is 29/30 years old and says, "I have been a live-in tutor to the Duggar children for the past year. Because we don’t do school 24/7 I am able to join in with the family’s work, and fun activities during the weekends and evenings. Hence, the reason why you may see so many pictures! But, I am in no such relationship. I may just be single for the rest of my life 

I sure do enjoy where God has me, and want to do as Jim Elliot encouraged: “Wherever you are; Be all there”! Blessings!"

The Duggars have had other women live with them to teach the kids. 2 that I can think of off the top of my head. The Query girl is one of them, and there was another one... Jennifer, I want to say? No courtship ever came from those. I think it's more "Duggar charity" (aka giving SAHDs from other families a way to experience true JOY by serving the Duggars). 

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

If there was a courtship, I don't thing JB would encourage them to live under the same roof. Too much chance of 'accountability -fail. Even tho there are "Duggars everywhere," they can't be chaperoned 24/7.

[FlamingFundie]

But he allowed Bin to live kind of under the same roof while courting Jessa. Is there any evidence of where Tabitha actually sleeps? Does she bunk with the D-girls?

Despite that, count me on the non-courting train.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

I thought it was particularly heart-braking when Anna wa talking about "memories in the little house." And she picked up Meredith w/tears in her eyes. She' still visibly struggling and needs some time to let it out.

That's why I don't think they'll live in TTTH when Josh gets out of Prayer Prison. They'd have no privacy to work things out. JB is prob. holding the property of their house so they can move in & re-start their marriage. But the question remains; suppose he doesn't want to remain fundie. How is  that going to work out. Anna could be very worried that Josh will want to walk away.

[Mela99]

Would Anna lighten up and be open to a less fundie life? If that was the trade off for remaining married to Smugs? Or would she say no in the hopes of saving her soul? Interesting balance. Go to hell for being worldly or go to hell for divorcing your headship. Sucks to be her right now. 

[foreign fundie]

I think the question if Josh wants to stay fundie is key in understanding why Anna lives with them. If Josh has 'converted' and really wants to live his old life minus the cheating/ molesting/porn, then it would be a possibility that Anna's living arrangements are charitive. (although disrespecting her independence, but well meant from their viewpoint). JB takes Anna under his roof and provides her with food and protection like a daughter while her husband can't. And she has the company and help of her SILs.

(Still it is creepy that this middle aged guy has a whole herd of adult women living under his roof, in hareem style living conditions, over whom he has authority and who depend on him. How healthy is that?)

But imagine that Josh is not sure about continuing the marriage or if he has lost (the fundie part) of his faith. In that case taking Anna in as a daughter is not only disrespectful to Anna, but also to Josh. As argued above, the current arrangements will explicitly encourage/push Josh to take back the whole package. Wife, kids, cult, family.It leaves him no independence or choice apart from what JB will allow. He has no chance to figure things out alone or with Anna. Even if the level of JB's involvement is what J&A both want, it is quite bizarre. But if this is all JB's idea, with or without Anna's approval, it can make it really hard for Josh to make his own future decisions.

The question remains, does Josh want to continue as a fundie? One could argue that since he stays in RU, he does indeed want that. Or that it is likely since fundieism is the attractive option. He would get his family back and some sort of daddy support. 

But part of me wonders. In fundieism he is even less than a cheating a-hole. Will he be able to deal with all the passive agressive 'forgiveness'? Does he want to be treated like an unreliable child? Can he face his grieving wife and kids? And if the root of his problem was unsolved in RU (likely), can he face fighting the same battle he lost several times? Or if he intends to keep his dubble life, can he face another scandal when found out again? Does he even want to return to a faith he betrayed for so long?

With JB taking so much control, it makes me suspect he worries Josh will not make the 'right' choises if left to himself. 

Even cheating molesters need to be free to decide about their future and face the consequences like an adult.

[2manyKidzzz]

My understanding is that Josh has gone to RU to be reformed and return to the "pure" cult mentality, which means returning to his marriage and being monogamous. I do not personally feel that this is going to happen. If he was on Joshely Madison two years into his marriage and has used sex workers, monogamous marriage is not his thing. I do not think RU can "pray away" his sexual attitudes and behaviors that are not considered "fundie'. I wish it could be different for the sake of Anna and the  M'kids, but truthfully I find him disgusting at this point, which Anna clearly does not. 

[Buzzard]

My guess is that Josh has not accepted the Kool Aide just yet and needs a few more months in jesus camp to blanket train him.   The house was sold and transferred to the LLC, Anna is living under Boob's roof.  Josh has nothing to return to --- so when he is released he will move to Big Sandy with the rest of the gothardites.  Boob will likely build/buy a house out there under the LLC's name and Smugles and the fam will move out as caretakers.  His reformation will continue with daily affirmations and weekly dinner with TFDW.  Anna and Priss will homeskool the littles and they'll have their perfect little fundie bubble.

[halcionne]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

Would Anna lighten up and be open to a less fundie life? If that was the trade off for remaining married to Smugs? Or would she say no in the hopes of saving her soul? Interesting balance. Go to hell for being worldly or go to hell for divorcing your headship. Sucks to be her right now. 

I'm always interested in resolving conflicts by meeting my opponent halfway; I think Anna and Josh's best hope would be if they lightened up on the legalism. Sorry for awkward grammar--I can't figure out how to phrase that any better, but I'm sure there's a way!

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

5 hours ago, FlamingFundie said:

But he allowed Bin to live kind of under the same roof while courting Jessa. Is there any evidence of where Tabitha actually sleeps? Does she bunk with the D-girls?

Despite that, count me on the non-courting train.

Ben didn't live in the house, he lived in one of the outbuildings.