Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 4

[CorruptionInc.]

3 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

I'm not totally 100% happy with her staying with the Duggars during this, but at least she has some help with the kids. We've talked about that a lot, but I am glad for that. All of this plus her having to take care of all those kids and an infant would be a lot.

I just wish the Duggars were on her side in this and weren't telling her anything problematic. It is a nice gesture to house her and feed her and help her take care of the children, but obviously we wonder if there are ulterior motives.

It's Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar - of course there are ulterior motives!

[QuiverDance]

On 1/6/2016 at 1:52 PM, SilverBeach said:

Abuse victims are so gaslit, they cannot see the obvious.

Long time lurker, first time poster.  Coming out of the woodwork to co-sign this sentence times a million.  Watching Anna Duggar breaks my heart.

[JDuggs]

On 1/6/2016 at 6:37 AM, iknowright said:

 Abuse victims are so gaslit, they cannot see the obvious.

 

4 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Long time lurker, first time poster.  Coming out of the woodwork to co-sign this sentence times a million.  Watching Anna Duggar breaks my heart.

Anna has been cheated on and lied to which is horrible and devastating, but I wouldn't call her abused.

[UnPitchPerfectViolin]

On 12/30/2015 at 4:42 PM, Whoosh said:

I get that some people don't believe Dillon and that is fine.  I get that some people believe Josh is far worse than we have yet heard and THAT is fine.  FJ has very few rules about what can and can not be fodder for harsh and degrading speculation from random strangers on the internet.  I am shocked each time someone violates those rules.  I simply don't understand why anyone needs to drive the ISB into territory the community has deemed unacceptable.

For some topics, there is no hard and fast rule with regard to speculation, yet I am constantly shocked that people will "go there".  If people have never worked with victims of sexual assault, let me inform you that MANY victims are reluctant to report anything at all and stories change all the time for a variety of reasons that all of us would likely understand if we stood in those shoes.  Events that occur well after the assault (such as a huge media scandal which leads to people on the internet NAMING YOU as having had an illicit affair with the person in question), may CHANGE THINGS and cause you to either report the assault OR file a lawsuit for damages that would not have occurred had the publicity NOT taken place.  Granted, people also lie and make false accusations.

The FACT is, we have NO IDEA what happened, if anything, between Duggar and Dillon.  There is NO PROOF either way.  You CAN NOT SAY that you KNOW any particular party is lying in this situation.  Someone making absurd and insulting statements about a make-believe story about a condom wrapper is NO EXCUSE for behavior that otherwise shouldn't happen.

Just so people understand exactly what they are saying (though much of it is not against any FJ written "rule"), some people are accusing Dillon of committing libel or slander in which one is imputing serious sexual misconduct, which is defamation per se and is an actionable wrong.  In some jurisdictions (though not PA), criminal charges can actually be filed for some types of defamation.  People can feel perfectly comfortable saying whatever they want about Dillon and her story, but what she is sometimes being accused of is actually defamation per se (which is actionable) and may indeed be a criminal offense in some jurisdictions (though not hers).  Further, there is also the chance that people are dragging the victim of a violent sexual assault through the mud.  Do we know anything for certain?  NO, WE DON'T.

Anyway, people can keep driving that bus in any direction they so choose that doesn't violate the rules of FJ.  Others will likely keep speaking up when the situation becomes absurd or uncomfortable.  

*Just one further comment - some people are also engaging in speculation which amounts to "imputing serious sexual misconduct" when they talk about Josh.  Seriously, people, think this shit through.

ETA - this rant was triggered by this conversation, but turned into more of a general rant about comments on various threads and over time.  It isn't directed at any individual.  

Thanks for this. As a victim of sexual assault, the thing that angers me the most is that people say that Dillon can't be telling the truth because she was with him twice. So not true! In counseling, I found out that going back a second time is actually quite common among victims, as they're trying to erase the first event from their mind, trying to have power over their choice to be with that person. It's a form of denial and jedi mind-trick: if you chose to be with them, then that bad thing couldn't have possibly happened. 

[NeverAFundie]

10 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

 

Anna has been cheated on and lied to which is horrible and devastating, but I wouldn't call her abused.

I'm going to disagree with you on that.  Abuse isn't just about being hit, or being yelled at and called names.  She has been subjected to significant spiritual abuse her whole life; from her parents, her religious sect, her husband, her in-laws.  I am sure she has been subjected to financial abuse--her spouse has sole final authority over finances.  And frankly, if teaching a woman that she is to blame for being cheated on and lied to isn't emotional and spiritual abuse, I'm not sure what is.

I know there is a sharp divide here between people who feel a lot of compassion for Anna, and those who just can't even anymore.  I was raised in a liberal, feminist home.  And I was still gaslit and brainwashed by an emotionally abusive husband for several years before I started to get my head on straight.  I can't even imagine how long I would have "hung in there" with him if I'd been raised under the kind of spiritual abuse Anna was raised under.  While I agree that she has a duty to her children, and to herself, to GTFO, my heart also aches for this woman and her limited capacity to take action to protect herself and the M kids.  Yes, there is a point when we, as adults (and parents) have to assume responsibility for our actions and stop blaming how we grew up for our faults...I just haven't decided yet where, in my opinion, that point is for Anna.

[apandaaries]

On 1/6/2016 at 1:45 PM, JDuggs said:

As far as we know, Anna hasn't been physically or emotionally abused.

I've seen no evidence for physical abuse, but the Gothard program really allows for heaps of emotional abuse for both women and men -- but especially women.  In their cult, women begin life as second class citizens, and never move up, though they can go down in stature.  We've seen the Gothard sexual abuse charts: victims are to establish what they did to attract their abuser, and how they need to change, and that forgiveness of any and all misdeeds are necessary and good, according to Jesus (read: Gothard).  I don't doubt that Anna has been questioned about how she "failed" Josh in her wifely submission and whatnot, just as the molested girls were surely urged to consider what Nike-like behavior tempted their brother.  

Having finally finished the 114 page lawsuit against Gothard and IBLP, I am more disturbed than ever.  Gil Bates and Chad Paine's dad are listed throughout as board members who knew about the abuse which was rampant in the cult -- not just Gothard's abuse, either, but also fathers and other family members abusing (physically and sometimes sexually) IBLP interns and volunteers.  As far as I'm concerned, the entire cult is just a vehicle for abusing and enslaving women and children.  

[socalrules]

Where can I find the Gothard lawsuit to read? 

[NeverAFundie]

17 minutes ago, socalrules said:

Where can I find the Gothard lawsuit to read? 

 

 

homeschoolersanonymous.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/iblpamendedcomplaintrev-c010616 [dot] pdf

 

I am clearly link-breaking impaired, because I can't get this darn link to break.  But it looks like it was posted elsewhere in the forums without being broken.

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

14 minutes ago, NeverAFundie said:

I am clearly link-breaking impaired, because I can't get this darn link to break.  But it looks like it was posted elsewhere in the forums without being broken.

It is not necessary any longer to break links.  Even if it were, HA is a safe source and did not require link breaking.

[JDuggs]

1 hour ago, JDuggs said:

Anna has been cheated on and lied to which is horrible and devastating, but I wouldn't call her abused.

 

1 hour ago, NeverAFundie said:

I'm going to disagree with you on that.  Abuse isn't just about being hit, or being yelled at and called names.  She has been subjected to significant spiritual abuse her whole life; from her parents, her religious sect, her husband, her in-laws.  I am sure she has been subjected to financial abuse--her spouse has sole final authority over finances.  And frankly, if teaching a woman that she is to blame for being cheated on and lied to isn't emotional and spiritual abuse, I'm not sure what is.

I know there is a sharp divide here between people who feel a lot of compassion for Anna, and those who just can't even anymore.  

 

1 hour ago, amandaaries said:

I've seen no evidence for physical abuse, but the Gothard program really allows for heaps of emotional abuse for both women and men -- but especially women.  In their cult, women begin life as second class citizens, and never move up, though they can go down in stature.  We've seen the Gothard sexual abuse charts: victims are to establish what they did to attract their abuser, and how they need to change, and that forgiveness of any and all misdeeds are necessary and good, according to Jesus (read: Gothard).  I don't doubt that Anna has been questioned about how she "failed" Josh in her wifely submission and whatnot, just as the molested girls were surely urged to consider what Nike-like behavior tempted their brother.  

First, I 100% empathize with Anna. I'm in a similar (but not the same) situation as Anna: my husband cheated on me (an emotional affair) and we're still working on our marriage with the hope that we will stay together. However, we're not involved in a cult-like religion so we have a major difference. I don't feel emotionally abused; I just feel completely betrayed. And I think that's probably how Anna feels. She thought that Josh was her loving husband who were never hurt or disrespect her, but he did.

I don't really think that the Duggars are blaming Anna for Josh's behavior. They all seem pretty mad at Josh. I assume that the Duggars and her parents, etc., are just focusing on Anna's need to forgive Josh. And I don't consider that emotionally abusive behavior.

[Buzzard]

We dont really know if they think that Anna bears some responsibility.  When it first came out, Jill shared a sermon indicating that it is a woman's fault when a man wanders.  Yes, Josh admitted (and then deleted and then admitted again) a porn addiction and being unfaithful, but we still arent sure what that means.

We have no idea what kind of counseling Anna is receiving from the cult.  We also dont really know if she's living in the dorm, if she's living there by choice or by assignment, or if she's living somewhere else.  There are a lot of holes out there in duggarland.  For all we know the frequent visits up to RU arent for visits, but for counseling... she could be there to learn how to better accommodate her husband. 

[justoneoftwo]

12 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

 

 

First, I 100% empathize with Anna. I'm in a similar (but not the same) situation as Anna: my husband cheated on me (an emotional affair) and we're still working on our marriage with the hope that we will stay together. However, we're not involved in a cult-like religion so we have a major difference. I don't feel emotionally abused; I just feel completely betrayed. And I think that's probably how Anna feels. She thought that Josh was her loving husband who were never hurt or disrespect her, but he did.

I don't really think that the Duggars are blaming Anna for Josh's behavior. They all seem pretty mad at Josh. I assume that the Duggars and her parents, etc., are just focusing on Anna's need to forgive Josh. And I don't consider that emotionally abusive behavior.

I would call it abusive to be told you need to forgive on penalty of eternal damnation.  

[apandaaries]

10 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

First, I 100% empathize with Anna. I'm in a similar (but not the same) situation as Anna: my husband cheated on me (an emotional affair) and we're still working on our marriage with the hope that we will stay together. However, we're not involved in a cult-like religion so we have a major difference. I don't feel emotionally abused; I just feel completely betrayed. And I think that's probably how Anna feels. She thought that Josh was her loving husband who were never hurt or disrespect her, but he did.

I don't really think that the Duggars are blaming Anna for Josh's behavior. They all seem pretty mad at Josh. I assume that the Duggars and her parents, etc., are just focusing on Anna's need to forgive Josh. And I don't consider that emotionally abusive behavior.

I think you may be underestimating the effects of the thorough brainwashing of their cult (and I also hope from the depth of my heart that you married someone very different from Josh Duggar).  I encourage you to look at the Gothard charts about sexual abuse.  Here's one: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/516365913503328516/ Here's a bit more: http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool-programs-terrifying-advice-on-sex-1706406324 At the very least, she should have prayed a hedge of thorns around him to keep him faithful: http://lornematthews.com/articlespages/Hedge.html

All of their teachings are Gothard and KJV Bible-inspired.  These texts leave a LOT of room for the responsibility of the victim, rather than the perpetrator.  We do know that a church affiliated with the Duggars preached about a woman's responsibility to her husband and her degree of fault if her husband strays.  We know that "Biblical submission" is a cornerstone of their religious teachings.  For me, even their premise of a woman being less than a man is emotionally abusive.  How does a woman grow up to be strong and independent if she thinks she must always rely upon a man?  Of course, Gothard doesn't want strong or independent women. Forcing that upon female children and using that idea to "train" them into (ultimately) subservient wives is, to me, emotional abuse from birth.  

 

[Timetostoplurking]

The thing with Anna is.....as much as I feel sorry for her, understand her need to stay with josh, and sympathize with her upbringing and current situation (I mean, really, living at the Duggar house?!?) . As much as I want only the best for her and her kids (as well as all the duggar kids, sans Josh).....I have no respect for her!  I can muster up all kinds of sympathy but  I can only think of her as a kidult.   She doesn't represent any kind of "grownup" in my opinion.  Sad as her situation is, I can only feel a numb kind of pity.  

[FleeJanaFree]

On January 2, 2016 at 6:45 AM, luv2laugh said:

 

Q: Can you explain why you stood by him during the scandal?

I knew about this long before it hit the press. Not long after Joshua and I met,  we visited his family and while we were there he shared with my parents, his life story, the good the bad and the ugly. He was very detailed and very honest with my parents .... When the police report was released, it wasn't easy reading through it and just kind of having to almost relive what Joshua had done, it was a shocking thing but at the same time there wasn't new information for my heart so it was just kind of like flipping open an old wound.  (She did not seem shocked , disgusted, or upset in explaining this portion. She appeared very relaxed, matte. 

 

I have read this thread up to this point, so I apologize if it got addressed already: I wanted to stop and point this quote out to me since it has bothered me ever since I heard it.

 

We've been hearing since Anna's first statement of the first scandal that Josh told her everything before  they started courting. But, while a little frazzled in the interview (anna -or any duggar- is not used to answering difficult  questions), she seems to confirm that Josh never told her anything himself! (Oh, having family members taken his fall? Awfully familiar) Sounds exactly like we suspected- an arranged marriage. He was very honest  and open with her parents, she says. Seems like Josh and JimBob told their variation of the story to her parents. im sure  Anna never got anything more specific than "Josh had ungodly thoughts and actions a few times and Jesus has saved him from his former self"

 

it wasnt new information for her heart. I bet it was for that empty head of hers.

[MatthewDuggar]

8 minutes ago, Timetostoplurking said:

The thing with Anna is.....as much as I feel sorry for her, understand her need to stay with josh, and sympathize with her upbringing and current situation (I mean, really, living at the Duggar house?!?) . As much as I want only the best for her and her kids (as well as all the duggar kids, sans Josh).....I have no respect for her!  I can muster up all kinds of sympathy but  I can only think of her as a kidult.   She doesn't represent any kind of "grownup" in my opinion.  Sad as her situation is, I can only feel a numb kind of pity.  

My sympathy has pretty much faded for her as well.   As brain-washed as she is, she does have some sane relatives, such as her brother-in-law who supposedly offered her a way out and she's not having it.  

[EmCatlyn]

9 minutes ago, MatthewDuggar said:

My sympathy has pretty much faded for her as well.   As brain-washed as she is, she does have some sane relatives, such as her brother-in-law who supposedly offered her a way out and she's not having it.  

That was her brother, Daniel, not her brother-in-law.  He is the one who referred to Josh on Jessa's Facebook as "that pig she calls her husband."   

The problem is that Anna has been taught to pray for Daniel, who (though still a Christian) has left the fold.  He is seen as a sinner.  Then he tells her to do something that her belief-system says is wrong (leave Josh).  To follow his advice, to accept his help, is equivalent in her mind to becoming a sinner too.

The best thing those in her family who want her to leave Josh can do for Anna now is to tell her that they support her decision but if she reconsiders and/or wants help with other options they are there for her.

Daniel meant well but his comments and offer were probably Ill-timed.

[MatthewDuggar]

22 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

That was her brother, Daniel, not her brother-in-law.  He is the one who referred to Josh on Jessa's Facebook as "that pig she calls her husband."   

The problem is that Anna has been taught to pray for Daniel, who (though still a Christian) has left the fold.  He is seen as a sinner.  Then he tells her to do something that her belief-system says is wrong (leave Josh).  To follow his advice, to accept his help, is equivalent in her mind to becoming a sinner too.

The best thing those in her family who want her to leave Josh can do for Anna now is to tell her that they support her decision but if she reconsiders and/or wants help with other options they are there for her.

Daniel meant well but his comments and offer were probably Ill-timed.

Thanks - I was questioning if I had it right or not when I was typing it.

[Timetostoplurking]

At this point in time, it's all up to Anna.  She has a few options, but it's her move now.  I'm only mildly curious how this will all plan out.   Granted, her upbringing was awful, but she is a legal (but not really an actual mature responsible adult) and it's time to "own" her life.  The ball is in her court!!!  

[Mothership]

1 hour ago, FleeJanaFree said:

We've been hearing since Anna's first statement of the first scandal that Josh told her everything before  they started courting. But, while a little frazzled in the interview (anna -or any duggar- is not used to answering difficult  questions), she seems to confirm that Josh never told her anything himself! (Oh, having family members taken his fall? Awfully familiar) Sounds exactly like we suspected- an arranged marriage. He was very honest  and open with her parents, she says. Seems like Josh and JimBob told their variation of the story to her parents. im sure  Anna never got anything more specific than "Josh had ungodly thoughts and actions a few times and Jesus has saved him from his former self"

Good catch FJF.  It would appear that it was the Kellers who were told everything (or as much as the Duggars wanted to share) and NOT Anna.    This would go with the patriarchy.  It would be much more important for her Dad to know than for her to know.

It also brings me back to a previous question.  What did/does Anna really know about sex and sexuality? There's a huge difference between understanding the biology of baby making and childbirth and any number of sex acts.

I just remember the creepy cameras following them down the hall of their hotel after the wedding.  She must have been scared shitless--there's no way she really know what was about to happen or even still knows what most people would consider the range of "normal sexual behavior"

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

1 hour ago, MatthewDuggar said:

My sympathy has pretty much faded for her as well.   As brain-washed as she is, she does have some sane relatives, such as her brother-in-law who supposedly offered her a way out and she's not having it.  

Anna's brother did exactly what you should NEVER do to anyone who is in an abuse situation (and everyone in that cult is in an abuse situation): putting that person on the defense. If Daniel had been there and supported her, listened to her, and gently eased her away, that would be one thing. But the first thing he did was take to attacking Josh, her belief systems, her parents, demanding she leave, etc. And he did it publicly, which makes her even more defensive. And, even if he had only confirmed her thoughts, his words and actions would have caused her to become defensive anyways, pushing her back into the cult. Furthermore, by making her defensive, he pushed himself further from him because she doesn't feel she can trust him now.

I've been both inside and outside abuse situations before. I've made the mistakes he made, and I've lost some dearest friends to said mistakes. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that his actions did nothing he wanted them to. 

[Four is Enough]

If the Duggars (and the IBLP) are not blaming Anna for Josh's transgressions, they (IMHO) are definitely giving her the side-eye. He was, after all, when he came to her, "redeemed"... So despite the fact that Anna knows nothing about sex or sexual chemistry, knows nothing about how to "please her man" save "close your eyes and think of babeez", Is NOT an equal partner in the relationship, because God and Gothard, and isn't equipped mentally to leave and work a job that would support her children, she bears responsibility for Josh's "slide"... Yes, I think she is emotionally abused, and has been held back from acquiring anything that would make her more independent.

One thing I will say about Anna, and it may be pure hogwash because of how heavily the shows were edited, is this: I believe she has her children's welfare at heart, and she works very hard, and mostly alone, to rear and "educate" them. This is one quality for which I admire her.

[habert]

Cults are abuse. Every single Duggar is an abuse victim. 

Being an abuse victim does not excuse your abusive behavior.

Absolutely Anna is an abuse victim!

[Dandruff]

Isn't the six months at Jesus camp considered a standard or minimum?  I wouldn't be surprised if he stayed longer, depending on the real reason(s) for him being there.  I see the potential reasons among the following:

- Anna couldn't stand the sight or thought of him after she found out, so some distance was in order

- Jim Bob wanted him punished and out of range of the media

- all were concerned about potential affairs in progress or impending (and I'm not talking about Danica here), wouldn't trust any denials by Josh, and so wanted to derail them by "locking" Josh up

- all want the future appearance of a reformed Josh - this would serve the Duggar family image, possibly save his marriage, and encourage the media to move onto other things

[MatthewDuggar]

3 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Isn't the six months at Jesus camp considered a standard or minimum?  I wouldn't be surprised if he stayed longer, depending on the real reason(s) for him being there.  I see the potential reasons among the following:

- Anna couldn't stand the sight or thought of him after she found out, so some distance was in order

- Jim Bob wanted him punished and out of range of the media

- all were concerned about potential affairs in progress or impending (and I'm not talking about Danica here), wouldn't trust any denials by Josh, and so wanted to derail them by "locking" Josh up

- all want the future appearance of a reformed Josh - this would serve the Duggar family image, possibly save his marriage, and encourage the media to move onto other things

It's 4 45 day phases.  Seems fairly standard.  They state Almost everyone finishes in 6 months.

http://ruhomes.org/about-us/program-overview