Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 4

[Whoosh]

I personally wouldn't leave my child with anyone raised by JB and Michelle Duggar for a variety of reasons - a huge one being they have absolutely no respect for women and children (as I define respect) and see women and children as existing to serve the needs of men.  I frankly wouldn't even bother to consider the person's primary object for sexual attraction or tendency to use child molestation as a source of power and control.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Just now, Whoosh said:

I personally wouldn't leave my child with anyone raised by JB and Michelle Duggar for a variety of reasons - a huge one being they have absolutely no respect for women and children and see women and children as existing to serve the needs of men.  I frankly wouldn't even bother to consider the persons primary object for sexual attraction or tendency to use child molestation as a source of power and control.

I agree that I wouldn't leave any Duggarling in charge of my children, though my primary reasoning is that I couldn't guarantee safety. We know the Duggar parents employ(ed) abuse tactics on their kids, who were raised in a culture where abuse is prevalent, so I cannot guarantee some form of abuse wouldn't occur if the child were to act up. I also have seen the kids being allowed to behave in manners that are entirely unsafe (especially in relation to the stairs/catwalk and kitchen -- I even seem to recall a moment where one of the kids was allowed to walk along the beams off the catwalk to reach a toy). 

[Bad Wolf]

I remember them using Mr. Jim's boom to get a toy down. I must have missed the time they walked across the beams. Love the way they run across the counters, with or without shoes.

[EmCatlyn]

12 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

Normal 15 year old boys by your standards. But sexuality had been evolving for millennia and is different in every culture. You cannot dismiss that sexuality is just as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a biological one. 

That said, I am not excusing Josh's behavior. He still assaulted people. I am merely pointing out that, to the people in his culture, every female body is a sexual thing, regardless of age. People in our cultures don't normally find themselves sexualizing children because we are not taught to view children as sexual beings. But, if you're taught that children are sexual beings and the idea is repeatedly forced upon you that all female parts are the same when it comes to sexual urges, why would you draw a line of distinction between a girl your age and a girl 10 years younger than you?

I mostly agree with this, but I also agree with @Whoosh 's caveat that we need to be careful not to imply that all people raised in a Gotthard/ATI environment may molest children because they will see them as "sexual beings."   There is a lot more involved here than cultural attitudes to children and sex.

To start with, I agree that Josh's molestation of his sisters was probably the result of a cultural framework that treated all girls as potential objects of desire.  I don't think, however, that we should discount other factors.  One was surely curiosity.  Another was probably the challenge of the forbidden.  And then there are adolescent hormones and poor impulse control.  As an example, a reason that some adolescent boys sometimes have homosexual encounters with peers or near peers in totally consensual relationships and then go on to lead happy heterosexual lives is that at a particular stage in their lives lust, curiosity and the greater ability of consenting sexual partners all coalesce to promote the adolescent sexual experience.(This was, for example,  the case in all-male boarding schools such as the British public schools between 1870 and 1940, a subject which I have researched, and has been identified in cultures that promote a ritual separation of adolescent boys from the general community for purposes of military training, hunting and/or formal rites of passage.)  And yes, abuse can exist in peer-group sexual encounters also, but the consensual incidents among boys who go on to have totally different sexual preferences suggest to me that how adolescents express their sexual urges does not always define their long-term sexual behavior  In many cases the homosexual encounter is not always indicative of a preference or proclivity. It is the result of a cultural/social situation combined with a developmental stage.   Without excusing Josh, I think that cultural factors influenced his behavior greatly.  To judge the "normalcy" of his behavior in terms of how the average teen age boy today might view little girls is perhaps to evaluate his behavior outside the proper cultural context.

That being said, culture isn't everything.  Furthermore, different people respond differently to the same upbringing and cultural messages.  In my view, Josh's sneakiness, sense of entitlement and privilege along with his difficulty controlling sexual urges to what is appropriate in his society, are the elements that caused his repeated (and, to us, very different) transgressions.  It is the combination of Josh's personality, the ATI fostered cultural environment and JB and Michelle's poor handling of the initiatial transgression that caused his molesting aggression to escalate.  Most teens in ATI--even other Duggar boys-- will not experience the same combination of factors and will (I trust) not molest children.

My last comment is about the distinction between seeing children as sexual beings (which we mostly do, in the modern world) and seeing children as sexual agents or objects.  A problem with the Gothard way is that all females are sexual objects.  They are not granted agency in sexuality; they are inciters of lust by virtue of being females who may arouse the male imagination. Yet they are assigned responsibility for things  they cannot control.  This is not seeing her as a "sexual being" so much as it is defining them as objects by denying them agency.

The ATI/Gothard cult is definitely twisted in its culture.

[2manyKidzzz]

I remember , as was also discussed on FJ, that in the initial episodes, as in the one building the house, Joshley was very overconfident/arrogant in his attitude. And this was just after the molestations, or within a year maybe. 

That he went on to break his commitments in marriage after just two years to me shows a lot of arrogance. That is just how I perceive him. I never liked him as I saw him on the show. 

That "piece" of his personality may or may not have some effect on his actions. I don't know of course, but he kept right on offending in the area of sexuality and betrayal. Which some people just do, as we all can see in life. 

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm not saying that all people raised in ATI will be molesters, nor would I expect them to even all be abusers. But, it's a culture that is ripe for breeding abusers of any type. And, the culture also does nothing to correct past or prevent future abuse once someone has abused another person. Starting with blaming the victims before sending someone to a "work camp" a year after the first attack occurred isn't going to solve anything, and keeping parents from seeking real, professional help (largely because real help will undermine the cult's control tactics) is going to make it worse for everyone involved. 

[MakeItSo]

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I remember , as was also discussed on FJ, that in the initial episodes, as in the one building the house, Joshley was very overconfident/arrogant in his attitude. And this was just after the molestations, or within a year maybe. 

That he went on to break his commitments in marriage after just two years to me shows a lot of arrogance. That is just how I perceive him. I never liked him as I saw him on the show. 

That "piece" of his personality may or may not have some effect on his actions. I don't know of course, but he kept right on offending in the area of sexuality and betrayal. Which some people just do, as we all can see in life. 

This smug overconfidence always rubbed me the wrong way in those early episodes/specials. He must have felt mighty special to narrate/"host" a TV special about his family. I mean, good for him but you're right it was shortly after the molestations and that just makes it all even more blergh.

[MatthewDuggar]

I'm just going to ramble out some thoughts, I'm certainly not defending Josh or anyone...

We're talking about someone who probably at the time, had never even seen so much as a picture of a naked female.  Plus all the constant "covering" and "modesty" and "Nike".... He had to have beyond curious.  The reports stated that he "touched", right?  There wasn't anything more than that, he didn't expose himself or force the victims into any specific sexual acts.   It's concerning that the touching happened repeatedly, but based on the reports, I personally wouldn't call that pedophilia.

However, couple that with the porn star hook-ups and alleged porn addiction, when he's a married man of 4 kids, I'd now put him in the sexual deviant/offender category, which to me makes me concerned for his kids and Anna.  I wonder if she was ever forced into doing anything she didn't want to do?

 

[Sweet Fellowship]

3 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I remember , as was also discussed on FJ, that in the initial episodes, as in the one building the house, Joshley was very overconfident/arrogant in his attitude.

I don't recall Josh being that arrogant concerning the construction of the house. I'm pretty sure in his THs he mentioned that he wasn't sure they could get certain parts of it done on their own and should hire professionals to help. He also mentioned Jim Bob said they could do it on their own, and gradually they did. Josh then felt they could actually complete the house as a family.

No denying that Josh is called "Smuggar" here for a reason, though. I found him to be up his own backside on other occasions.

[HarleyQuinn]

7 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

THe marriage was all but arranged.  Pa Keller probably said "Josh Duggar has contacted me about marrying you, now time to get married."  It was also her ticket to leave a trailer for fame and fortune, as well as her family's ticket to ATI royalty (TFDW would not have noticed Prissy without a famous BIL).  If she had waited, she probably would have ended up with another dud of a husband (look at her sisters-- who knew a gay guy would be the pick of the litter).  She never struck me as a Keller who had the wherewithall to leave ATI (you can see cracks in Suze in the courting episodes).  

That said, I can tell that she clearly loves him.  But I don't think he loves her.

I disagree abouy TFDW, he probably wanted someone dumb enough not to notice how far in the closet he is.

But I agree, Josh doesn't love Anna. He'll cheat on her again.

[Pixiedust1960]

I saw somewhere that there will be a divorce in the Dugger family. I don't remember hat paper.

[CorruptionInc.]

I saw somewhere that there will be a divorce in the Dugger family. I don't remember hat paper.

Famy's parents are getting a divorce.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

1 hour ago, CorruptionInc. said:

Famy's parents are getting a divorce.

I thought they weren't married. 

[Mothership]

I"m still firmly believe that Joshley's marriage to Anna was  a desperate action (or reaction ) by JB and DQ to fix him.  I think Anna and the Kellars were targeted because they were naive and starstruck.  I don't believe that Joshley ever loved Anna, but she was suppose to fix his sexual desires (or whatever we want to call them or label them).  I think she did love him in her own dumb, sweet, Gothard, keep-sweet way.  He was presented to her as her prince-charming.  She escaped the trailer, got to travel and live a life she could only have dreamed of.  It had to have seemed like a fairly tale to her.  

I think staying married to Anna is still seen by all of them as the way to "fix" Josh.   They never have and never will admit that his behavior was anything worse than crawling off the blanket.

Unless and until Anna stands up for herself and her children and says "No", she will be married to an abusive pig and will spend the rest of her life forgiving him again and again.

On that same note, I think the AM accounts were not his first attempts at sexual encounters.  I suspect that the dirt still out there on Josh is that he did have anonymous sex prior to meeting Anna.  Forget the whole "first kiss" crap.  I also think that JB (and maybe DQ) knew about them.   Better get him a wife who will submit regularly, so that he doesn't need to look elsewhere.  Again, this is in denial that he might not have been interested in missionary sex with the same curly haired Gothardite for the rest of his life.

[Bad Wolf]

23 minutes ago, Mothership said:

Crawling off the blanket

I love it. @Happy atheist. Can that be a post count?

[withaj]

46 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

I thought they weren't married. 

They weren't married when Amy was born, but they  have been married for about 10 years now, I think.

[Dandruff]

I believe Josh will need to be monitored and kept essentially out of sight for a long time.  Aside from making Jim Bob look bad and costing the family their show, I can't even imagine how pissed off the FRC folks still are.  They paid him a lot of money to get out in public and promote their "family values", and look what they got in return.  I found it very interesting that when FRC denounced Josh in writing, the Duggar Family Blog posted it.  I have little doubt that Jim Bob helped him get the job.  I'm sure that none of them want another publicized screw-up by Josh to stir up the negative sentiment.

[luv2laugh]

13 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I think that Anna, in reading the police report, finally got a full disclosure of what Josh did and part of what she's dealing with, on top of everything else, is that she finally found out what she and her father should have been told from the get go.  I do not think that either she or Pa Keller ever got the full story of Josh's sins and probably what they were told, was in such a way as to not set any alarm bells ringing.   In watching the Kelly interview, it was obvious that J'chelle and JB saw this as all "taken care of" and really minimized what happened because well, it was in their minds, "all taken care of".   I can see the same thing being said to Pa Keller and Anna.  And Anna, being as sheltered as she was, would have had no idea what a lot of this meant, that it wasn't normal and pretty damn sick.

Even a normal 19 year old would (or should) see this behavior as a major red flag.  Hell, back when I was 20 I got some information on an ex-bf in some if of his um, past activities (that he had downplayed himself), and while it wasn't on the level of what Josh did, I saw the guy as seriously sick and was so glad I was rid of him.  And I was still fairly sheltered at the time though not on the same levels as Anna.

So between what I consider "Duggar speak", Anna being sheltered and probably Pa Keller's belief in forgiveness (he has to be, in order to prison ministry) and not asking the right questions, this courtship went ahead and now we have a devastated wife and four kids in the mess.

She doesn't seem very devastated from the Counting On show. Maybe she was putting on "brave" face for the cameras though. Other than that, I have no sympathy for her because she seems pretty defensive against anyone who tells her she should leave Josh. IMO, I think she believes no different than Michelle does about the molestation, in her mind this was taken care of and is "no biggie". The big deal to her, is the media and public that won't leave poor Joshy alone.

[luv2laugh]

10 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

That said, if Josh had been able to have a normal "preteen romance" with his intended instead of being told he would marry her one day, but have to wait 4+ years for them to even hold hands or front hug, he may not have even resorted to molestations. They could have had supervised dates that still allowed them to hold hands, hug, maybe even get a peck. Josh's initial attacks could have been driven by an inability to find a healthy outlet for his frustrations, and lack of control revolving around that.

I do not agree with this. No normal "sexually curious" 15 yr old molests a 5 yr old child period. Josh Duggar has problems that are far more serious than what you're suggesting. I'd say the majority of the public agrees. Josh needs to go to a licensed psychiatric professional and get evaluated.

[nokidsmom]

39 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

She doesn't seem very devastated from the Counting On show. Maybe she was putting on "brave" face for the cameras though. Other than that, I have no sympathy for her because she seems pretty defensive against anyone who tells her she should leave Josh. IMO, I think she believes no different than Michelle does about the molestation, in her mind this was taken care of and is "no biggie". The big deal to her, is the media and public that won't leave poor Joshy alone.

While I haven't watched the show, relying on recaps from Buzzard and other posters here, I did watch videos of Anna's interviews.  My read is that she's pretty upset even four months out from the AM scandals and trying to hold it together.  Perhaps I am projecting because I would be upset if I were in her shoes, but she really does strike me as struggling.   I get if she's defensive about leaving Josh.  Her husband's transgressions have been pretty egregious and she's only learned the truth until recently.  She's got to hearing a lot of advice (beyond her family and in-laws) that she should leave.  I think she would like to have the molestations be "all taken care of" and "no biggie" but she's read the report, is probably still trying to process it and perhaps reconcile it to what she and her father were told way back when she and Josh were courting.  The media and the public could forget about it tomorrow but she's not going to forget.  Things have forever changed for her even if she would like to go back to how things were. 

[socalrules]

I really don't understand the idea that Josh's crimes were ones of opportunity so we should look at them differently. It doesn't make it better or more understandable if you molest those you have easy access to. Most molesters likely molest those they have easy access to, i.e. teachers, daycare workers, relatives, family friends, etc. Josh isn't special in this department. You aren't a better molester because you didn't snatch someone off the street. The fact that you want to molest at all is the problem. If you have no problem molesting your sisters and the babysitter, then you likely have no problem molesting anyone else out in the world.

I don't buy into the theory that if the family was not sexually repressed or if Josh was allowed to date this wouldn't have happened. It's a cop out. There are lots of kids that grow up on farms or live a significant distance from non-family members and have little contact with others their age. It doesn't mean they are more likely to molest their siblings. Hell, there are teenage boys that can't get any girl at school to date or talk to them. It doesn't mean they are likely to molest. Most people will never see their siblings as sexual beings nor have any interest in sexually touching them regardless of their background. Most people wouldn't molest or sexually abuse anyone regardless of whether they are given the "opportunity". Something is fundamentally wrong with you if you are molest anyone, even your sibling. Further, Josh didn't do it once, he kept doing it even after being caught again and again. It's not being curious because you are sheltered, it's being a predator. 

As to the argument as to whether Josh is a pedophile, I don't understand the fighting over it. If he isn't a pedophile because he was 15 and not 16, he is still a child molester. Is it somehow better he can't be clinically diagnosed as a pedophile because he wasn't a year older? Curious kids touch each other when they are five. Fifteen year olds don't touch five year olds because they are curious. 

I don't care that Josh screwed around on Anna and likes porn. It isn't a crime (I am not taking the Danica story into account because I don't know if It is true.) It just makes you a shitty husband. I see being a child molester and cheating on your wife as two different things. Many people cheat, yet they don't molest. 

[Whoosh]

18 minutes ago, socalrules said:

 

If he isn't a pedophile because he was 15 and not 16

Just to reiterate, this isn't why it matters and it isn't why a lot of people don't think he is or was ever a pedophile before or after turning 16.  I don't necessarily think child molesters are better or worse than pedophiles.  They simply are not the same thing.  There is overlap between the two groups, for sure, but they are not the same thing.  Just like all priests are not Catholic.  Some Catholics are priests and some priests are Catholic, but they are not the same thing.

[2manyKidzzz]

If Josh molested a five year old, whatever you call him, he should not be alone with 5 year olds. It is all too weird. He is just a complete mess. Poor Anna and those kids. 

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

2 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I believe Josh will need to be monitored and kept essentially out of sight for a long time.  Aside from making Jim Bob look bad and costing the family their show, I can't even imagine how pissed off the FRC folks still are.  They paid him a lot of money to get out in public and promote their "family values", and look what they got in return.  I found it very interesting that when FRC denounced Josh in writing, the Duggar Family Blog posted it.  I have little doubt that Jim Bob helped him get the job.  I'm sure that none of them want another publicized screw-up by Josh to stir up the negative sentiment.

I doubt FRC is even still thinking about him, and he's hardly the first politician, lobbyist, or celebrity figure head to have a sex scandal or more

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

She doesn't seem very devastated from the Counting On show. Maybe she was putting on "brave" face for the cameras though. Other than that, I have no sympathy for her because she seems pretty defensive against anyone who tells her she should leave Josh. IMO, I think she believes no different than Michelle does about the molestation, in her mind this was taken care of and is "no biggie". The big deal to her, is the media and public that won't leave poor Joshy alone.

1. She has to keep sweet because of her culture

2. She's devastated, it's all over her face, in her words and actions, and in how she's coping. Just because someone can "hold herself together" on the outside, doesn't mean she's able to do the same on the inside  

3. Leaving Josh isn't an option she sees herself as having because she's fully engrained in the cult, which tells her that her commitment was to god first. She even pointed that out during her TH. If she divorces Josh, she has to reconcile her faith, which is a lot to expect her to do in a short time.

4. We have seen almost NOTHING from Anna during this whole thing. What we have seen has been VERY CAREFULLY crafted. You can't claim to know what is important to her or how she's feeling about Josh outside of those very select instances

33 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

If Josh molested a five year old, whatever you call him, he should not be alone with 5 year olds. It is all too weird. He is just a complete mess. Poor Anna and those kids. 

There is absolutely nothing to say he's a danger to children currently because of what he did 12+ (I forget how old he is) years ago, when he was still a minor himself. There is no proof that he's at all a danger to children. There also isn't any proof that he's even still an abuser. Danica's initial story said he was rough the first time, but he apologized and she agreed to a second session which was much different. It's likely that Josh was reenacting her porn films, not realizing how fake and controlled those are. I know a lot of guys who do that shit with their own SOs, not grasping the difference between for entertainment and real life. It doesn't make them abusers, just stupid and inexperienced. 

[luv2laugh]

13 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

I doubt FRC is even still thinking about him, and he's hardly the first politician, lobbyist, or celebrity figure head to have a sex scandal or more

Disagree. FRC suffered big time when the Josh scandals came out. They hired him as the face of FRC and it blew up.

 

13 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

1. She has to keep sweet because of her culture

2. She's devastated, it's all over her face, in her words and actions, and in how she's coping. Just because someone can "hold herself together" on the outside, doesn't mean she's able to do the same on the inside  

3. Leaving Josh isn't an option she sees herself as having because she's fully engrained in the cult, which tells her that her commitment was to god first. She even pointed that out during her TH. If she divorces Josh, she has to reconcile her faith, which is a lot to expect her to do in a short time.

4. We have seen almost NOTHING from Anna during this whole thing. What we have seen has been VERY CAREFULLY crafted. You can't claim to know what is important to her or how she's feeling about Josh outside of those very select instances

Disagree. Anna does not appear very devastated on TV. If she wanted to show that she was devastated, she would have mentioned that. Instead, she chose to talk about forgiveness and said that while she respects those who feel she should leave, she will not, as that is not what a Christian wife does. The rest of the time, she spent smiling when mentioning Josh and how she can't wait to see him. Also, I found it disturbing that she minimized the molestation and referred to them as Josh's "teenage choices".At first, I felt very bad for her. However, after hearing about how she rejected her brother's request to come help her out and after watching her talk about Josh on TV, I can no longer feel sorry for her. 

 

13 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

There is absolutely nothing to say he's a danger to children currently because of what he did 12+ (I forget how old he is) years ago, when he was still a minor himself. There is no proof that he's at all a danger to children. There also isn't any proof that he's even still an abuser. Danica's initial story said he was rough the first time, but he apologized and she agreed to a second session which was much different. It's likely that Josh was reenacting her porn films, not realizing how fake and controlled those are. I know a lot of guys who do that shit with their own SOs, not grasping the difference between for entertainment and real life. It doesn't make them abusers, just stupid and inexperienced. 

Disagree. You can have Josh come babysit your children, but I would not feel safe with him around mine. I don't think I have to say anything more about it. Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.