Jill Duggar Dillard Part 10: Taking Photos of Screaming Izzie

[Drala]

40 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

In the US, there are so many Christians that to call oneself Christian is like saying one likes cheese. (What kind of cheese?)

Umm...this kind?

 

[SilverBeach]

5 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

Seriously?  I just about always clarify opinion vs fact.  YOU quoted me and tried to tell me what to believe by stating your views as fact., I said "you can believe that, but not everyone does", then YOU said something like "Jesus DEFINITELY had blah blah blah and they were DEFINITELY blah blah blah blah".  I would suggest that you 1) don't try to tell others what to think on matters of opinion (particularly when it comes to views on religion and/or faith which are deeply personal) and 2) learn to distinguish opinion vs fact.  You are more than welcome to put me on your foe list.  The only reason we are interacting on this thread is that YOU quoted me and proceeded to tell me what to think about a matter that clearly is one of opinion.

WHY the FUCK would my status as a non theist give me any superiority?  It doesn't give me superiority any more than YOUR beliefs give YOU superiority. If you don't want these types of interactions, stop insisting people agree with your version of "truth" about Jesus, God, faith, etc.  Not gonna happen.  Enjoy your day.

 

Enjoy your day also, this is all a bunch of BS being projected onto me. I have NEVER spoke for anyone but myself about anything. Never insisted anyone agree with me about Jesus or anything  else. Show me where I did such a thing. You do not know me and it is the ridiculous to assault my character as though gh you do. Controlling much?

And I have every right to express my opinion about what I damn well please, you aren't the only one. Foe me if you want. 

[Whoosh]

On January 19, 2016 at 2:51 PM, SilverBeach said:

It is not just a matter of what I believe. Jesus definitely had siblings, and they were definitely born after he was, so where did they come from?

I am well aware of the many controversies and disagreements in the Christian theological world, I have been in it and studied it for quite some time.  

In any case, most of the disagreements are of no consequence to me, as I focus on the pronouncements of Jesus himself to love God  first and everybody else second. It is all about love, to me.

Imma leave this alone.

 

 

 

[SilverBeach]

18 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

 

Your point? Oh forget it, you just want to argue. I don't. 

[lascuba]

Any history buffs correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading once that it wasn't until a few centuries after the establishment of Christianity that the Church declared Mary's perpetual virginity. (I've also read that the original word "virgin" was translated from simply meant unmarried as opposed to never had sex, but one thing at a time.) Is that right? I'm a non-believer and don't consider the Bible a historical document, so all this is just interesting trivia to me.

[Georgiana]

Just going to throw it out there:

I have siblings.  My mother, however, birthed exactly 0 of them (adoption).

I know people who call their step-siblings "brother/sister" because the marriage happened when they were young and they grew up together like "normal" siblings.  I know people who refer to very close friends that they were raised with as their brother/sister.  

The ancient world had a lot of cases we don't see today in terms of family structure simply because of the high mortality rates.  It would not be uncommon or even unusual for Mary/Joseph to take in their orphaned nephews/nieces and for them to be considered fully their children.

The usage of "brother/sister" to refer PRIMARILY to a genetic relationship is fairly modern and rather Western.  Before genetics was a "thing", "brother/sister" referenced the relationship you had with X person.  That's what mattered: what ties you had to X person and what you could expect from them.  Who gave birth to you and who sired you was not as relevant as who raised you. If you were raised "as a brother" with X, you were expected to refer to X as your brother and treat him as such.  As someone mentioned, first cousins that you were raised alongside were often considered your "siblings" because that is the relationship you are expected to have with them, the duties you have to them, etc. because that was what the order of society was based upon.  

Let's not pretend that someone having siblings AUTOMATICALLY means they share a biological mother.  Even today that is not true.  It's a weak argument, to be sure, but it is entirely possible that Mary was eternally Virgin AND that Jesus had brothers by the definition at the time.  

5 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Any history buffs correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading once that it wasn't until a few centuries after the establishment of Christianity that the Church declared Mary's perpetual virginity. (I've also read that the original word "virgin" was translated from simply meant unmarried as opposed to never had sex, but one thing at a time.) Is that right? I'm a non-believer and don't consider the Bible a historical document, so all this is just interesting trivia to me.

Yep!  It was debated in the early Church, widely accepted by the 4th Century, and confirmed in several Ecumenical Councils by the 7th Century.  

Also, in the early Church there was the belief held by some that Joseph was a widower taking a second wife.  These people attributed Jesus' siblings referenced in the scriptures to be children of Joseph's first marriage.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

16 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Just going to throw it out there:

I have siblings.  My mother, however, birthed exactly 0 of them (adoption).

I know people who call their step-siblings "brother/sister" because the marriage happened when they were young and they grew up together like "normal" siblings.  I know people who refer to very close friends that they were raised with as their brother/sister.  

The ancient world had a lot of cases we don't see today in terms of family structure simply because of the high mortality rates.  It would not be uncommon or even unusual for Mary/Joseph to take in their orphaned nephews/nieces and for them to be considered fully their children.

The usage of "brother/sister" to refer PRIMARILY to a genetic relationship is fairly modern and rather Western.  Before genetics was a "thing", "brother/sister" referenced the relationship you had with X person.  That's what mattered: what ties you had to X person and what you could expect from them.  Who gave birth to you and who sired you was not as relevant as who raised you. If you were raised "as a brother" with X, you were expected to refer to X as your brother and treat him as such.  As someone mentioned, first cousins that you were raised alongside were often considered your "siblings" because that is the relationship you are expected to have with them, the duties you have to them, etc. because that was what the order of society was based upon.  

Let's not pretend that someone having siblings AUTOMATICALLY means they share a biological mother.  Even today that is not true.  It's a weak argument, to be sure, but it is entirely possible that Mary was eternally Virgin AND that Jesus had brothers by the definition at the time.  

Yep!  It was debated in the early Church, widely accepted by the 4th Century, and confirmed in several Ecumenical Councils by the 7th Century.  

Also, in the early Church there was the belief held by some that Joseph was a widower taking a second wife.  These people attributed Jesus' siblings referenced in the scriptures to be children of Joseph's first marriage.  

I don't know who the hell you think you are clogging up a religious discussion with factual information and super interesting historical data points and stuff like that...but that's just completely out of line.

You take your logic and your application of verifiable historical references and and reasonable tone and get the hell out of here!  We don't need any  of your kind around here!

(and for the humor impaired I am totally kidding.)

 

 

[Georgiana]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I don't know who the hell you think you are clogging up a religious discussion with factual information and super interesting historical data points and stuff like that...but that's just completely out of line.

You take your logic and your application of verifiable historical references and and reasonable tone and get the hell out of here!  We don't need any  of your kind around here!

(and for the humor impaired I am totally kidding.)

 

 

If only Mary could have been more like Michelle Duggar and stressed at the beginning of every chapter of the New Testament whether or not she "gave birth to every one of them"!  Alas, all she got right was the J name trend (get back in the garage, Simon!)!

[2manyKidzzz]

11 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

If only Mary could have been more like Michelle Duggar and stressed at the beginning of every chapter of the New Testament whether or not she "gave birth to every one of them"!  Alas, all she got right was the J name trend (get back in the garage, Simon!)!

This is wonderful and very clever. 

*******

 

I had forgotten about the dream where the angel told Joseph about Mary's pregnancy. Does anyone know if this was in the Old Testament predictions and if not how did it become known?

[Mothership]

The Zika virus is going to be a Catch 22 for the Dullards.

It's the perfect excuse for them to end thier mission vacation.  "Danger, Danger Will Robinson", but in order to leave, Jill has to be pregnant, which already puts her at risk and if they leave because of fear of the virus and she's not pregnant, than they're admitting that her  "and counting' status is more important than converting Catholics or whatever else they'hre claiming to do.

Futher, if they're truly answering a call to be missionaries (which is the standard that I expect anyway), than Derek would send Jill and Izzy back to the US for the pregnancy and stay in El Salvador, Guatemala or wherever and do his work.  That's what I have seen happen in missionary families that I know.   The family is all in for the mission work and that may mean that the family has to live separately at side for reasons of health, safety or just convenience.   But, we all know that Jill isn't going to live apart from Derek.   She can't do a Walmart drop by from the states.

[Chickenbutt]

Jill would have to know about, and understand the risks of the virus to take any action one way or the other. Do you really think she, or Derrick for that matter, even know about it?

[EmmieJ]

Just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion about the Virgin Mary, whether Jesus had siblings, and if so, were they half-siblings or cousins.  I especially liked those who shared their pre-game shouted prayers and how they sometimes unsettled their opponents  

[Cleopatra7]

5 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Jill would have to know about, and understand the risks of the virus to take any action one way or the other. Do you really think she, or Derrick for that matter, even know about it?

I would be really surprised if the Dullards or any of the Duggars and their ilk read any kind of mainstream, secular news. I bet the only "news" they pay attention to is WND and Charisma. Even Fox is probably too mainstream for them.

[Artemesia]

I would think that Jill, as a trained midwife, should not only know about Zika but also has the responsibility to explain the risks to any potential parents. BC seems prudent for all; this isn't just a mild illness for the baby, it's life altering or fatal.

[Mothership]

23 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Jill would have to know about, and understand the risks of the virus to take any action one way or the other. Do you really think she, or Derrick for that matter, even know about it?

As much as we doubt the abilities and willingness of the Dullards to read or watch secular news, I would think that it would already be a big deal in Guatemala especially among the expat community that is taking language lessons, so Derek has to have heard something.

Also, I'd hope that SOS ministries would be at least responsible enough to issue a warning to them, if in fact, they are there under their guidance.

Finally, TLC would certainly let them know.  They could make that a complete episode--Jill and Derek discuss the risks of the Zika virus as if they actually understand anything medical/scientific.

[livinginthelight]

3 hours ago, halcionne said:

 I agree with this, but in my experience, the newer (last twenty years or so) non-denom "bible" churches call themselves Christian and leave it at that. It's just as vague as saying you like cheese, if the cheese you like is Velveeta.

Full disclosure: I have had bad experiences in the non-denom denom and I don't like them. I don't much like cheese, either. Actually, I'm particular about cheese. And organized religion. I'll stop now. 

Actually, I call myself "Christian" rather than identifying my denomination not because I'm from a "Bible" church but because my relationship with Christ is far more central than any denomination. I view a lot of the denominational divisions as unimportant details. I join congregations that place importance on a relationship with Jesus rather than rules. If I were to move, I would feel absolutely free to join a Catholic church or Methodist, or any other that seems to be most authentically living a Christian life.

(FWIW, I'm currently Presbyterian USA. I have attended a variety of other denominations, from liberal to conservative)

[gustava]

15 hours ago, exjwpagan said:

I don't know about Mary, but I recently realized that my father was born six months after my grandparents got married. Either he was an amazingly robust preemie or my devoutly Catholic grandma wasn't a virgin bride!

 

Or she met the holy ghost as in "Mary, Mary, she's the most; she got laid by the Holy Ghost.

20 hours ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

Unless you have proof of the bolded above, wouldn't it be more correct to say "I believe it is a myth" or "I can't image why people would believe this"?

There are those on this board who would agree with you.  There are others,  like me,  who believe that God really did cause a girl who had never had sex to conceive a child,  His son.  It's not that I've never ever heard anyone claim this is a myth but we're having such a nice, intelligent conversation about all of this.   No hard feelings--just an observation. 

When I taught a course in mythology, I used the term "narrative" as in the Noah narrative.

8 hours ago, MatthewDuggar said:

 25But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born

40 days for  a boy? Or 80?

[vienna]

26 minutes ago, Mothership said:

As much as we doubt the abilities and willingness of the Dullards to read or watch secular news, I would think that it would already be a big deal in Guatemala especially among the expat community that is taking language lessons, so Derek has to have heard something.

Also, I'd hope that SOS ministries would be at least responsible enough to issue a warning to them, if in fact, they are there under their guidance.

Finally, TLC would certainly let them know.  They could make that a complete episode--Jill and Derek discuss the risks of the Zika virus as if they actually understand anything medical/scientific.

Of course they know.

But they will do sh... about it for them selves and for others (whom they can´t talk to anyway): It is god´s decision, they are in His Hands....

[xlurker]

Episcopal here also.  Have moved around a bit, so have attended a few different (Episcopal) churches.  The virginity of Mary was never really discussed, except for the fact she was one when she became pregnant prior to her marraige to Joseph.  The priest we had while I was a child, and who was quite old, never ever referred to Jesus' siblings....other, younger priests since then have referred to the siblings as everything from full siblings, half siblings or close relatives.  Seems as if there may not be a "company line" on that in this church!  As to Mary remaining a virgin for her entire life, I had never heard this concept until I married my husband--an Eastern Orthodox Catholic that also attended a RC church.  Quite frankly I don't put too much stock in what he says, as even though he went to Catholic school he didn't realize the books of the gospel were in the NEW testiment!

[Valerie3kids]

Izzy doesn't seem to show a lot of personality in pictures, but maybe they catch him off guard. I will agree his feet look a little large in the picture. Is Derrick very tall? Are his feet large? I don't remember from the shoe shopping incident if his shoe size was large? I just remember him stating something like "Feet are different here"?!?!?

I would think Izzy may be a little behind on the talking. Jill seems very disconnected and Derrick does also. I just do not see either of them taking the time to actually talk to the child. After all they are out saving the Catholics. Ugh.

If she even thinks she is pregnant she does need to come home. I will try not to snark on her but for the health of her baby she needs to be in the States. I do not know if that will happen. I do not see her leaving Derrick as he couldn't even go to work by himself.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, halcionne said:

 I agree with this, but in my experience, the newer (last twenty years or so) non-denom "bible" churches call themselves Christian and leave it at that. It's just as vague as saying you like cheese, if the cheese you like is Velveeta.

Full disclosure: I have had bad experiences in the non-denom denom and I don't like them. I don't much like cheese, either. Actually, I'm particular about cheese. And organized religion. I'll stop now. 

I am picky about my cheese and my organized religion also.   Some non-denom churches are rather Velveeta-y, I fear.  

[SilverBeach]

@Georgiana refers to some "beliefs" put forth by the early church. The early church after the death of Christ was an amalgam of groups and subgroups, all having varying "beliefs" to some degree. The earliest early church was still considered a sect of Judaism! I would be cautious in applying our present day meaning of relational terms to ancient Hebrews, historical context is so important. That said, I apologize for not citing references (not just the Bible) but after today's kerfuffle I am too tired.

Funny I got embroiled in this controversy. I am Protestant and do not hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary, not in the the physical sense. Would Joseph have agreed to that? However I have no problem with her being revered as the mother of God, heck we revere our own earthly mothers. Nonetheless, I respect Catholics and others who believe differently. Whether or not Jesus had siblings or not, whether they were born to Mary or not, is of no consequence to me. I avoided organized religion for many years because of every groups assertion that they are right. So, I aim to keep it simple and follow Christ and the two great commandments. And the greatest of these is love.

I am so sorry for coming across as an arrogant know it all, atbleast to some of you, lol. It really bothers me, as I value your this board and my participation here.

Goodnight all, enjoy your evening.

 

 

I 

 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Artemesia said:

I would think that Jill, as a trained midwife, should not only know about Zika but also has the responsibility to explain the risks to any potential parents. BC seems prudent for all; this isn't just a mild illness for the baby, it's life altering or fatal.

I used to live in two of the countries affected.  I don't know what people who live there are going to do, but I think it is unlikely that they will just stop having babies until the disease is eradicated.

Birth control and/or "get out of the country" makes sense if you are just a tourist.  But if your life is in an affected country,  you don't have that option.  Doctors in Puerto Rico are not urging their female patients to use birth control but to use mosquito repellent. (I asked an old friend.)

Incidentally, we may have Tika in the continental U S by next summer.  (We already have people who contracted the disease abroad.  All we need is a few AE mosquitos to bite them and then bite someone else.  Fortunately this is not mosquito season.). I am more worried about the disease spreading through the warmer parts of the U S than about Jill getting it.

[lascuba]

Not that I would think less of them--because that would be impossible, they're already so horrible--but I don't think Jill and Derrick should return to the states because of the Zika virus. Let's pretend for a second that they're doing actual work there, that they were "called" to do something essential...that doesn't change because of pregnancy. What makes Jill so much more special and important than those she has been called to "serve?" She and Derrick went on and on and on about the risks they were taking in going to the oh-so-dangerous expat-neighborhood of Guatemala...how is the Zika virus any more dangerous than what they swore up and down that they would be facing.

Don't get me wrong...they and their fellow missionaries need to leave and never return. But it better not be because their hypocrital asses use pregnancy as an excuse. 

[jacduggar]

5 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Not that I would think less of them--because that would be impossible, they're already so horrible--but I don't think Jill and Derrick should return to the states because of the Zika virus. Let's pretend for a second that they're doing actual work there, that they were "called" to do something essential...that doesn't change because of pregnancy. What makes Jill so much more special and important than those she has been called to "serve?" She and Derrick went on and on and on about the risks they were taking in going to the oh-so-dangerous expat-neighborhood of Guatemala...how is the Zika virus any more dangerous than what they swore up and down that they would be facing.

Don't get me wrong...they and their fellow missionaries need to leave and never return. But it better not be because their hypocrital asses use pregnancy as an excuse. 

To be fair...Zika virus causes harm to the fetus. It's inherently unfair to say an unborn baby deserves brain damage because her mom is a dimwit. They have access to quality healthcare and safe living conditions, I think an unborn baby and small child are worth using them.