Jessa, Ben & Spurgeon - Those Smug Seewalds

[KSmom]

On the topic of Jessa wanting an epidural, and being told she couldn't have one: I think it was largely because of $$$$. I am not convinced that she and Ben have medical insurance. I am sure he is considered self-employed or a contract worker. I can't imagine JimBob paying for insurance, And there is no way they would get evil Obamacare. 

These people are cheap and ignorant, the kind of people that won't take others advice and think that they know everything. That is why there is no professional midwife (that would be a waste of $, they can do anything in a skirt remember?).

Well, they are really stuck with medical bills now.

[lascuba]

I'm not a fan of home birth at all, but, assuming that Jessa did ask for an epidural, I don't think it's all that significant that she didn't go to the hospital for one; I don't think that it had anything to do with it not being part of their brand, and I highly doubt that Michelle would have been the one to refuse to "let" her transfer. Read enough homebirth stories, and it seems that more than half of them include a part about begging for an epidural, not getting it, and being so glad afterwards that they didn't transfer for one. (Or alternatively, they did get the transfer and epidural they asked for, and are resentful of their husbands/midwives for listening to them.)  Now, if Jessa had still been in fairly early labor with plenty of time for a transfer and people were refusing to let her even after she repeatedly asked, then that's a major problem. But, say, nearing transition when even in a hospital she wouldn't have been given an epidural? Meh.

I'm a little squicked by some of the barely concealed glee at Jessa's postpartum appearance and what people assume she must feel about that.

[justmy2cents]

This this this. I hope I don't get accused of body shaming, but I honestly thought that Jill and Jessa's appearances when they were pregnant gave them away as being in pretty poor shape. Normally you don't show so early on in a first pregnancy, especially when you're as young as they were, so the prematurely huge baby bumps were indicative to me of zero ab strength. I wouldn't be surprised if  a lack of muscle tone in addition to poor nutrition contributed to their complications during birth. A pregnant woman will leech nutrients right out of her body if she doesn't have enough in her nutritional stores for the fetus, so the first kid always turns out fine, but I'm kind of worried about their future pregnancies. I seriously doubt the girls have the reserves for more than a normal number of babies.

 

How exactly would lack of muscle tone (if that was even the case) be responsible for Izzy being in the transverse position or Jessa losing too much blood after Quincy was born?  I don't find their complications to be anything unusual or something that tons of other women hadn't experienced.  As for them showing early or Jill carrying large, all women are different and carry differently.  

[SassyPants]

This is a great and seemingly genuine picture. I cannot believe all those folks were in that little house for the birth. Maybe they all stayed over at Chez JB until the baby was born...let's hope.

 

I think Jessa's gained a lot of weight since she gave birth.  Just before Spud was born she was super-skinny, with too thin, matchstick arms. I thought she might have an eating disorder.  Now her arms and body are significantly bigger in a very short amount of time.  This does not appear to be  "pregnancy weight" or related to big boobs from breast feeding (been there, done that) because the non-boob body weight has also  increased rapidly in a very short amount of time. I am a comfort eater and I know that when I feel out of control, I eat.  And eat.

I feel sad for Jessa.... having my first baby confronted me with the fact that I didn't have control over my life any more.  A new baby will cry, have colic, not sleep, not latch on to the breast etc and the new mother is  helpless to "fix" these things.  It must be a super hard transition when you have been a poster child for the Perfect Family.  Strangely, for me to feel concern for Jessa is very unusual.  She is my least favourite Duggar girl.  I'm hoping that this dose of the reality might be the eye-opener she needs regarding breadwinning,  birth control and dysfunctional  Duggar dogma.  I think she's strong enough to emerge as a better person from the horrendous, life threatening childbirth she endured. 

I'm with the person who suggested Jessa was probably begging to go to hospital for an epidural and her family wouldn't "let" her because this did not fit the brand.  If this is correct, that's another object lesson in how her needs don't count when there is media money to be made.  I'm also one of the people who saw an IV line  in the first hospital photo, and figured they dragged her out of bed to take the "sheet" photo where she looks like she is about to faint, long before we knew she had a blood transfusion.  If this whole sorry episode doesn't make her think twice about staying sweet, nothing will.

My daughter's MIL is called Dopey.

Yes, everyone, kids, Grands, her husband, calls her Dopey.

[herpderp]

How exactly would lack of muscle tone (if that was even the case) be responsible for Izzy being in the transverse position or Jessa losing too much blood after Quincy was born?  I don't find their complications to be anything unusual or something that tons of other women hadn't experienced.  As for them showing early or Jill carrying large, all women are different and carry differently.  

I didn't say it was actually responsible for their complications. Just pointing out that it's an example of their not being in as good shape as one might expect, considering their young age. As for their appearance during pregnancy, I can say fairly confidently that it is out of the norm for a fit woman in her early twenties. Of course you're right that all women are different, but the fact that they were raised in the same environment with known poor nutrition is definitely cause for reasonable suspicion. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

This this this. I hope I don't get accused of body shaming, but I honestly thought that Jill and Jessa's appearances when they were pregnant gave them away as being in pretty poor shape. Normally you don't show so early on in a first pregnancy, especially when you're as young as they were, so the prematurely huge baby bumps were indicative to me of zero ab strength. I wouldn't be surprised if  a lack of muscle tone in addition to poor nutrition contributed to their complications during birth. A pregnant woman will leech nutrients right out of her body if she doesn't have enough in her nutritional stores for the fetus, so the first kid always turns out fine, but I'm kind of worried about their future pregnancies. I seriously doubt the girls have the reserves for more than a normal number of babies.

Another thing - it's a common misconception that thin women are more frail than thicker ones, or that they should have a harder time during pregnancy. If you're thin from working out and eating healthily, you'll do great, because 1.) you're well-nourished to feed baby without compromising yourself, and 2.) muscle strength always helps. Whereas if you're Joy, who's been fed the same crappy diet as her sisters but happens to look more heavyset because that's just her body type, you won't be any better off. You can be downright fat and still too malnourished to have a healthy pregnancy because all those calories came from nutrient-poor sources. 

Do you have a source on any of this?  As someone who had severe postpartum hemorrhaging similar to Jessa this is the first I've heard anyone infer those reasons could have anything to do with that.

If you have sources I'm interested in reading them.  

[herpderp]

Well, obviously poor muscle tone isn't going to cause a hemorrhage. If you read my most recent comment you would see that I wasn't saying that Jill and Jessa being in relatively poor shape directly resulted in their complications. I just made a general statement about how they probably weren't in optimal condition during their pregnancies. However, I did look it up and iron deficiency anemia is a risk factor for postpartum hemorrhage. Who knows if that was the case with Jessa; I wouldn't be surprised, as it's most common in young women with poor diets, and it seems that they didn't get much meat (the main source of iron in non-vegetarians) during their formative years. But the major risk factor is simply a large baby, so that was most likely the case. 

[Whoosh]

Well, obviously poor muscle tone isn't going to cause a hemorrhage. If you read my most recent comment you would see that I wasn't saying that Jill and Jessa being in relatively poor shape directly resulted in their complications. I just made a general statement about how they probably weren't in optimal condition during their pregnancies. However, I did look it up and iron deficiency anemia is a risk factor for postpartum hemorrhage. Who knows if that was the case with Jessa; I wouldn't be surprised, as it's most common in young women with poor diets, and it seems that they didn't get much meat (the main source of iron in non-vegetarians) during their formative years. But the major risk factor is simply a large baby, so that was most likely the case. 

I hear what you are saying here and the part about anemia being a risk factor is interesting.  I do just want to point out that people are reacting to what you said and that is something that will continue to happen on FJ.  Here is what you said:

"I wouldn't be surprised if  a lack of muscle tone in addition to poor nutrition contributed to their complications during birth."

Now, I agree that saying "contributed to" is not exactly the same as saying "responsible for".  On the other hand, it isn't so very different.  It is basically the exact same as saying "partially responsible for" or "partially caused".  If you say something like that, people might ask you why you think that or if you have any evidence to back it up.  

More generally, this issue seems to be a continuing cause of some contention on FJ.  I think we can probably all agree that overall, better pre-pregnancy health and fitness will be correlated with better pregnancy and birth outcomes for the population as a whole.  I do think it is reasonable to reasonably speculate as to why a certain pregnancy or birth unfolds the way it does to a certain extent.  However, many people who are quite healthy pre-pregnancy do experience all kinds of issues and complications and many issues and complications do appear to be entirely outside of the control of the woman in question.  Further, if people see family trends in pregnancy or birth issues, that could be the result of genetics or it could be something else.  If people fail to recognize these realities when speculating on pregnancy and birth issues, others will point it out.

[herpderp]

I hear what you are saying here and the part about anemia being a risk factor is interesting.  I do just want to point out that people are reacting to what you said and that is something that will continue to happen on FJ.  Here is what you said:

"I wouldn't be surprised if  a lack of muscle tone in addition to poor nutrition contributed to their complications during birth."

Now, I agree that saying "contributed to" is not exactly the same as saying "responsible for".  On the other hand, it isn't so very different.  It is basically the exact same as saying "partially responsible for" or "partially caused".  If you say something like that, people might ask you why you think that or if you have any evidence to back it up.  

More generally, this issue seems to be a continuing cause of some contention on FJ.  I think we can probably all agree that overall, better pre-pregnancy health and fitness will be correlated with better pregnancy and birth outcomes for the population as a whole.  I do think it is reasonable to reasonably speculate as to why a certain pregnancy or birth unfolds the way it does to a certain extent.  However, many people who are quite healthy pre-pregnancy do experience all kinds of issues and complications and many issues and complications do appear to be entirely outside of the control of the woman in question.  Further, if people see family trends in pregnancy or birth issues, that could be the result of genetics or it could be something else.  If people fail to recognize these reality when speculating on pregnancy and birth issues, others will point it out.

You're right. It probably would have been better to just say that they may have had an easier time if they were in better shape. I do think people on FJ tend to be a bit unnecessarily defensive, though. 

Off topic: why did FJ change my subheading to "Bathroom Baby?" That's hilarious but also creepy because I'm a lifelong laughingstock in my family for spending way too much time in the bathroom. So many things have happened this past week that make me literally feel like the Internet is reading my mind! XD 

[Whoosh]

You're right. It probably would have been better to just say that they may have had an easier time if they were in better shape. I do think people on FJ tend to be a bit unnecessarily defensive, though. 

Off topic: why did FJ change my subheading to "Bathroom Baby?" That's hilarious but also creepy because I'm a lifelong laughingstock in my family for spending way too much time in the bathroom. So many things have happened this past week that make me literally feel like the Internet is reading my mind! XD 

Yeah - different people are defensive about different things, so in a widely diverse group it can come up a lot.  Rest assured FJ is not reading your mind about the bathroom issue!  I know that feeling (LOL).  Post count titles are, in my opinion, one really great thing about FJ and you will only be a bathroom baby for a short time if you keep posting.  Here is a link that explains fj post count titles.  If you check it out, your own bathroom habits and the feeling that the internet is reading your mind just may concern you far less than the actual story behind that particular post count title.  

ETA forgot link http://www.freejinger.org/topic/24822-recommended-your-updated-guide-to-free-jinger-user-titles/

[Charliemae]

Spud is obviously getting well-fed.  Look at the source!

This is gross and inaccurate.  Women with small breast are perfectly capable of feeding their babies.  And women with large breast have breastfeeding problems all the time.  Seriously, gross. 

[ksgranola1]

I'm not a fan of home birth at all, but, assuming that Jessa did ask for an epidural, I don't think it's all that significant that she didn't go to the hospital for one; I don't think that it had anything to do with it not being part of their brand, and I highly doubt that Michelle would have been the one to refuse to "let" her transfer. Read enough homebirth stories, and it seems that more than half of them include a part about begging for an epidural, not getting it, and being so glad afterwards that they didn't transfer for one. (Or alternatively, they did get the transfer and epidural they asked for, and are resentful of their husbands/midwives for listening to them.)  Now, if Jessa had still been in fairly early labor with plenty of time for a transfer and people were refusing to let her even after she repeatedly asked, then that's a major problem. But, say, nearing transition when even in a hospital she wouldn't have been given an epidural? Meh.

I'm a little squicked by some of the barely concealed glee at Jessa's postpartum appearance and what people assume she must feel about that.

Sometimes it's too late for a epidural. But the mothers write up a "birth plan" and in their zeal to successfully have a home birth, they will include a statement saying, "If I ask for medication/epidural or transfer to hospital, talk me out of it." They are blissfully unaware of what labor feels like, so have no idea. I remember Anna begging to go to the hospital w/Michael. They cut away, but she said enough.

[lascuba]

Sometimes it's too late for a epidural. But the mothers write up a "birth plan" and in their zeal to successfully have a home birth, they will include a statement saying, "If I ask for medication/epidural or transfer to hospital, talk me out of it." They are blissfully unaware of what labor feels like, so have no idea. I remember Anna begging to go to the hospital w/Michael. They cut away, but she said enough.

That's why I've always found the, "If I ask for an epidural, talk me out of it!" talk so bizarre. They don't know how they'll feel until they experience it so why the hell say something like that?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

You're right. It probably would have been better to just say that they may have had an easier time if they were in better shape. I do think people on FJ tend to be a bit unnecessarily defensive, though. 

Off topic: why did FJ change my subheading to "Bathroom Baby?" That's hilarious but also creepy because I'm a lifelong laughingstock in my family for spending way too much time in the bathroom. So many things have happened this past week that make me literally feel like the Internet is reading my mind! XD 

It has nothing to do with being defensive.  It's just common sense that if you're going to offer up opinions on what may or may not contribute to a medical issue on a forum like this you'll likely be asked if you have sources.  I don't understand how that's interpreted as being defensive.  

 

 

[justoneoftwo]

This this this. I hope I don't get accused of body shaming, but I honestly thought that Jill and Jessa's appearances when they were pregnant gave them away as being in pretty poor shape. Normally you don't show so early on in a first pregnancy, especially when you're as young as they were, so the prematurely huge baby bumps were indicative to me of zero ab strength. I wouldn't be surprised if  a lack of muscle tone in addition to poor nutrition contributed to their complications during birth. A pregnant woman will leech nutrients right out of her body if she doesn't have enough in her nutritional stores for the fetus, so the first kid always turns out fine, but I'm kind of worried about their future pregnancies. I seriously doubt the girls have the reserves for more than a normal number of babies.

Another thing - it's a common misconception that thin women are more frail than thicker ones, or that they should have a harder time during pregnancy. If you're thin from working out and eating healthily, you'll do great, because 1.) you're well-nourished to feed baby without compromising yourself, and 2.) muscle strength always helps. Whereas if you're Joy, who's been fed the same crappy diet as her sisters but happens to look more heavyset because that's just her body type, you won't be any better off. You can be downright fat and still too malnourished to have a healthy pregnancy because all those calories came from nutrient-poor sources. 

I'm a thin dancer (strong core, seriously strong) who eats very healthily (okay, eat more than I should for thanksgiving, but usually).  I am showing pretty strongly at 16 weeks (with very little weight gain).  It can just have to do with how your uterus is placed.

[Alicja]

Ben has really been shading IBLP/ATI on Facebook for the past few days... in Christ's name could this be a sign??

[Bad Wolf]

Ben wrote on Facebook that wearing skirts, home schooling and courting are not Christianity and had a link to a Paul Walsh video. I watched a little, but stopped when he said he was faithful to his wife because Jebus.

I would like to think that Ben is starting to think outside the cult, but when you name your kid after someone who hates Catholics, I have my doubts.

[justoneoftwo]

Ben wrote on Facebook that wearing skirts, home schooling and courting are not Christianity and had a link to a Paul Walsh video. I watched a little, but stopped when he said he was faithful to his wife because Jebus.

I would like to think that Ben is starting to think outside the cult, but when you name your kid after someone who hates Catholics, I have my doubts.

I think it is totally possible they will leave and be just as cultish in another cult.  Is that improvement?

[justmy2cents]

Ben wrote on Facebook that wearing skirts, home schooling and courting are not Christianity and had a link to a Paul Walsh video. I watched a little, but stopped when he said he was faithful to his wife because Jebus.

I would like to think that Ben is starting to think outside the cult, but when you name your kid after someone who hates Catholics, I have my doubts.

Is it really a change in thinking for Ben though?  His sisters all wear pants.  Not sure if his mom homeschools.  There were pictures on her facebook of the kids in uniform.  Not sure if they're learning at a school or if it's some homeshooling coop or something. His sister Jessica doesn't live at home and has a regular boyfriend.  It seems like he just conformed to Duggar standards because he was pursuing Jessa.

[SassyPants]

Is it really a change in thinking for Ben though?  His sisters all wear pants.  Not sure if his mom homeschools.  There were pictures on her facebook of the kids in uniform.  Not sure if they're learning at a school or if it's some homeshooling coop or something. His sister Jessica doesn't live at home and has a regular boyfriend.  It seems like he just conformed to Duggar standards because he was pursuing Jessa.

The Seewalds were/are not Gothardites. I believe they were associated, at one time, with vision forum????

Ben saying such is to be expected.

NOW, let's see if he pulls the Headship card [beyond the ugly naming of his offspring] and has Jessa wearing pants, listening to music, playing sports and attending a real brick and mortar church.

[Gimme a Free RV]

This is gross and inaccurate.  Women with small breast are perfectly capable of feeding their babies.  And women with large breast have breastfeeding problems all the time.  Seriously, gross. 

This is a snark board.  That was a snark.

I'm well-versed in breastfeeding and anatomy, thanks.  

[MakeItSo]

so Bin, are you saying you might send little Spurgy off to a public school after all? Not with that name, you're not!

[HarryPotterFan]

Ben wrote on Facebook that wearing skirts, home schooling and courting are not Christianity and had a link to a Paul Walsh video. I watched a little, but stopped when he said he was faithful to his wife because Jebus.

I would like to think that Ben is starting to think outside the cult, but when you name your kid after someone who hates Catholics, I have my doubts.

In other words, everything his wife does is wrong.

Also if the only reason you are faithful to your wife is because of Jesus, not because you love her and know cheating is wrong, then you are an asshole.

[imokit]

Don't think this has been discussed yet

Yes it's radar online, but we snark about their silliness here.

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/jessa-duggar-new-baby-unmarried-childless-sister-jana-duggar-spending-night-help/

 

[nastyhobbitses]

Is it really a change in thinking for Ben though?  His sisters all wear pants.  Not sure if his mom homeschools.  There were pictures on her facebook of the kids in uniform.  Not sure if they're learning at a school or if it's some homeshooling coop or something. His sister Jessica doesn't live at home and has a regular boyfriend.  It seems like he just conformed to Duggar standards because he was pursuing Jessa.

And if his family is so liberal by fundie standards, why he couldn't just go to some secular but kinda conservative university and go bang an endless succession of sorority girls who are just as hot as Jessa but don't require a wedding ring and signing over your life rights to a reality show before the hot dickings can commence is beyond me.

Working theory: he's one of those Must Assert Dominance manly men who's constantly insecure about his masculinity, and marrying a girl who will completely submit to his every will and give him a bit of fame on the side is an ideal arrangement for him.