Joshley Madison Pt 8: Are We Still Talking About This?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Nope, I sure don't have any reputable evidence to state where Josh has been; nobody does, except Shane Nicholson, apparently. You may be right about Nicholson's concern for his reputation. 

I actually do think Josh is/was at RU, but the fact remains that I haven't seen any confirmation either way. 

TIL that if you view enough of an ignored member's posts, FJ takes them off ignore. Feature or bug? 

Neither, I believe.  The "stop ignoring users posts" is right under the "show this post" option - sure you didn't click the wrong one?

[FreeCalifornia]

There's no way Josh would be holed up at a Motel 6. There are TV's in the rooms, upon which pornography can be viewed. It would be like leaving a recovering alcoholic alone with a liquor cabinet.

Compared to dying in a plane crash or something of the such, you'd THINK if JD or JB had already flown there they could have been in the room with him and done away with the remote or found a way to hold him accountable. Clearly not, but you'd THINK it would be safer than flying back in those conditions! Then again, I guess they had faith God would protect them.

Frankly, If he was in a room and made the choice to access pornography, it would prove he doesn't want to change. At some point (IF that is the case) they will eventually have to accept that he may not always follow the family line. 

[ksgranola1]

I've been in a few motels & never once found porn. Italy was another animal altogether, tho.

[tcach]

These people (especially Jim Bob) continue to live under the delusion that they are so godly that they are invincible.

[halcionne]

Neither, I believe.  The "stop ignoring users posts" is right under the "show this post" option - sure you didn't click the wrong one?

It's possible that I clicked the wrong one, but I don't think so. I bumped the thread I made in the tech forum, so you can ignore that. I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing, which is occasionally unhiding ignored members' posts, and watch for a pattern to develop.

[foreign fundie]

But that's the thing. The kid WASN'T safe there. A large group of adults silently watched him being dragged outside to get hit. What's safe about that?

It would have been far better if some adults stood up and told the dad to stop. Even if the family left the church, the child would always have that memory of being protected. How does it help the kid to have the pastor have a quiet word with the dad (that the child will likely never know about). The dad might still leave the church, or might change his ways a little (waiting till he got home to hit the kid), but nothing substantial will have changed.

I fully see your point and that was also my thought. However, I can also see the pastor's point. The reaction if the dysfunctional dad was likely out of shame. His kid was fussing while the church kids were well behaved. He probably wanted to prove he was a good dad by not letting his kid get away with it. Truth is, no one in this church was bothered by the fussing. They were much more bothered by the father's response. So apart from discussing his style of discipline, the pastor wanted the dad to know his kids did not have to sit still or else. They could be kids.

The incident is over ten years ago. Over the years the family has attended and the children have been involved in youth groups and been connected with church families. As of my last visit (I don't live there anymore) they have turned into rather normal looking and acting teens, unlike their parents who look very weird and borderline (redacted). I don't know how much credit the church can take for their children turning out better than expected. But I am pretty sure there was no other place in society this family could have found acceptance. I have honestly never understood how these people were even allowed to raise kids. They must have been under constant monitoring by the child protection services.

So yes, my gut feeling was to stop the dad there and then. It would have satisfied my desire for justice. But I seriously wonder if that would have been in the long term interest of the children. They have now had years of exposure to healthy and loving families and chances to talk about their home situation and receive support. And given the environment these kids were from, that was a miracle in itself. 

Difficult, difficult questions.

 

[Inky]

Isn't it possible that they just bailed Josh out so he could go home for Thanksgiving? I have no doubt that RU would bend the rules for such a famous celebrity. If they manage to "cure" him of his problems, it would mean other fundies would be beating a path to their door for help. Either that, and I really think this is a possibility: Josh has had some kind of mental breakdown. We all think he was sent off by his parents. Maybe it wasn't what he wanted at all. Since RU does not have any trained medical staff or counsellors there, if he was having problems, they might worsen in those circumstances.  That would explain the plane ride through the bad weather.

 

 

[foreign fundie]

Apologies for using a word which I did not realize was offensive to Americans. I used it in it's literal sense: "retarded" as being less advanced in development as is usual to ones age. When I speak about these people being borderline retarded, I mean they have the mental capabilities of maybe 12 year olds. It is not meant as hate speach, but as a factual discription. Not being a first language speaker I have obviously missed the sensitivities connected with this idiom. It surprised me somewhat as I have an American friend who speaks about her retarded son (mentally disabled). Anyway, by all means correct the idiom, but being placed under moderation seems a bit severe for an innocent mistake.

[Rubyroo]

These people (especially Jim Bob) continue to live under the delusion that they are so godly that they are invincible.

I see this, especially with the girls and their home births. It'll take a catastrophe before they consider what could happen if the worst happened.

 

And on the thought of Josh returning home for thanksgiving, that's a week away! I can't imagine them saying, "lets bust Joshy out and hang out with him (supervise him) for the week before thanksgiving (then send him back?)" it's just too far from thanksgiving for me to consider that a viable reason. Maybe if they picked him up the Tuesday or Wednesday before, but not a solid week and a half before. Just my opinion, though, maybe they need josh as slave labor to prepare thanksgiving dinner duggar style.

[EmCatlyn]

And on the thought of Josh returning home for thanksgiving, that's a week away! I can't imagine them saying, "lets bust Joshy out and hang out with him (supervise him) for the week before thanksgiving (then send him back?)" it's just too far from thanksgiving for me to consider that a viable reason. Maybe if they picked him up the Tuesday or Wednesday before, but not a solid week and a half before. Just my opinion, though, maybe they need josh as slave labor to prepare thanksgiving dinner duggar style.

That just gave me an image of Josh shut up in the barn under Michelle's supervision, plucking the dozen turkeys that  JohnDavid, Josiah and Joseph hunted.

After he finishes, he will be taken to the woodshed by JB who will . . . Expect him to chop wood, of course.

[Hisey]

I fully see your point and that was also my thought. However, I can also see the pastor's point. The reaction if the dysfunctional dad was likely out of shame. His kid was fussing while the church kids were well behaved. He probably wanted to prove he was a good dad by not letting his kid get away with it. Truth is, no one in this church was bothered by the fussing. They were much more bothered by the father's response. So apart from discussing his style of discipline, the pastor wanted the dad to know his kids did not have to sit still or else. They could be kids.

The incident is over ten years ago. Over the years the family has attended and the children have been involved in youth groups and been connected with church families. As of my last visit (I don't live there anymore) they have turned into rather normal looking and acting teens, unlike their parents who look very weird and borderline (redacted). I don't know how much credit the church can take for their children turning out better than expected. But I am pretty sure there was no other place in society this family could have found acceptance. I have honestly never understood how these people were even allowed to raise kids. They must have been under constant monitoring by the child protection services.

So yes, my gut feeling was to stop the dad there and then. It would have satisfied my desire for justice. But I seriously wonder if that would have been in the long term interest of the children. They have now had years of exposure to healthy and loving families and chances to talk about their home situation and receive support. And given the environment these kids were from, that was a miracle in itself. 

Difficult, difficult questions.

 

I do see what you are saying. I didn't mean that my way was the better one. I realize it's very hard to stand up to parents in that situation and say "stop!" And, you're right, it often isn't the most helpful thing. 

I remember once I saw a little girl being belittled and maligned by her mother in a bookstore. Not physically abused, but insulted and relentlessly criticized. I couldn't just walk away, but what could I do? I remembered some research that said that parents were less likely to abuse if they felt their children were admired or looked upon favorably by other adults. So I went up to the mom and told her what a beautiful daughter she had, and admired the kid for a bit. Did it help? Who knows? But it wasn't a case for CPS and it felt like correcting the mom would just make her angrier at the child.

It's hard to know what to do.

 

[hollywood]

Well, if he isn't home for Thanksgiving he certainly will be for The Lord's Birthday Party^TM

[ksgranola1]

On the subject of kids having fits in inappropriate places & what to do...

I was in church *in the choir loft where I can see everything*  a kid started having one of the mother of all fits. The pastor kept on; the fussing began growing into outright screaming. He was about 3;struggling to get out of his mothers grasp as she tried to get him out of the sanctuary. He got away from her & proceeded to lie down in the isle. The pastor announced the collection of offerings & then walked down the isle & swooped the kid up & out of the church. I thought he was just being helpful. Learned later that it was HIS KID!

[VelociRapture]

Gothard is no longer with the organizations he founded.  He got fired because of sexual molestations and now the organization and the board members are being sued by a lot of Gothard's victims.

I'm really sorry, but if If you honestly think Gothard is truly gone and has no sway over the Board then you need to take a closer look I would suggest that you take a look at the Recovering Grace website concerning the events in the 1980's (if you haven't done so already). Same thing happened then - he was caught harassing young women and his brother, Steve, was caught doing worse things. Bill Gothard "stepped down," only to return in full force soon after (a whooping 17 days if I remember correctly).

He may not be officially in charge at the moment, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he is still unofficially in charge of things.

ETA: That came out a lot bitchier sounding than I realized. I'm not sure how to edit it to make it better, so I hope a little note here will help. Sorry about that, it wasn't intentional at all!!!

ETA 2: Maybe that helps a bit? Left in the parts that were bitchy sounding so people know why I edited.

[DuggarWatch]

I'm really sorry, but if you honestly think Gothard is truly gone and has no sway over the Board then you need to take a closer look at the Recovering Grace website concerning the events in the 1980's. Same thing happened then - he was caught harassing young women and his brother, Steve, was caught doing worse things. Bill Gothard "stepped down," only to return in full force soon after (a whooping 17 days if I remember correctly).

He may not be officially in charge at the moment, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he is still unofficially in charge of things.

ETA: That came out a lot bitchier sounding than I realized. I'm not sure how to edit it to make it better, so I hope a little note here will help. Sorry about that, it wasn't intentional at all!!!

I understand.  In my opinion, because of the lawsuit and because all of the board members will be required to testify if the matter isn't settled out of court, the organizations have to maintain a complete dissociation with Gothard right now.  Many of the properties are for sale, which caused the plaintiffs to file their lawsuits at this time and they have asked the court to put all proceeds from any sale into trust until the cases are finalized.  In short, Gothard has to remain completely out of the picture.  They can't afford to maintain any contact with him right now.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

Picking Josh up over a week early for Thanksgiving would be really strange to me. If he was at RU and left suddenly then I think something happened- either JB decided that RU was not the "right place" for Josh or maybe the Duggars are bracing for something else to come out.  

[Curious]

Apologies for using a word which I did not realize was offensive to Americans. I used it in it's literal sense: "retarded" as being less advanced in development as is usual to ones age. When I speak about these people being borderline retarded, I mean they have the mental capabilities of maybe 12 year olds. It is not meant as hate speach, but as a factual discription. Not being a first language speaker I have obviously missed the sensitivities connected with this idiom. It surprised me somewhat as I have an American friend who speaks about her retarded son (mentally disabled). Anyway, by all means correct the idiom, but being placed under moderation seems a bit severe for an innocent mistake.

From our rules (emphasis added)

Hate speech is not allowed on Free Jinger. While we value free speech, this is a privately owned site and this matter is not up for debate. FJ will NOT be considered a hate site because some people can"t control themselves. Hate speech is defined as speech that offends, threatens, or insults groups, based on race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, or other traits. This means we do NOT tolerate the use of words like nigger, faggot (or fag unless you are from a country that uses that term for cigarettes and are using it in that manner), retard or retarded, gay as an insult (ie: that is so gay), etc. The fact that I had to make this an actual rule disappoints me greatly. There will be ONE warning given for violation of this rule. If that warning is ignored, the member will be placed on an indefinite Journey To The Heart until they realize they are not the special snowflakes they think they are.

I will remove the moderation because the rules say you get one warning (I thought we took that out, so my mistake).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I understand.  In my opinion, because of the lawsuit and because all of the board members will be required to testify if the matter isn't settled out of court, the organizations have to maintain a complete dissociation with Gothard right now.  Many of the properties are for sale, which caused the plaintiffs to file their lawsuits at this time and they have asked the court to put all proceeds from any sale into trust until the cases are finalized.  In short, Gothard has to remain completely out of the picture.  They can't afford to maintain any contact with him right now.

They also can't afford to instruct an entire subculture to encourage their woefully uneducated sons to shun working for legitimate employers and have eleventy babies with their equally uneducated wives who aren't allowed to work at all, because strategically SOTDRT + abject poverty isn't how you raise an army of warriors...but they do that anyway.

Gothard is in their heads.  He helped program the crazy in their neural firings...and this is a cult so what rational people do to comply with a court order doesn't apply here.  Sure - he may not be at the head of the table in the conference room, but if you don't think he's still sending out dog whistles that his minions here and obey...then you are an incredibly trusting person.

I am not.  Gothard is in their DNA at this point and as long as he's alive he's the deal.  I don't get it - he's creepiness personified to me - but people follow him.  No one cares how Gil Bates likes women to style their hair, or David Waller's interest (if any) in the feet of young women...but Gothard alone supported whole industries of crunchy perms and flip flops.

[FlamingFundie]

Johs is back in the Duggar compound because Danica is suing him, per InTouch.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/josh-duggar-sued-by-pornstar-danica-77789

[JillyO]

Johs is back in the Duggar compound because Danica is suing him, per InTouch.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/josh-duggar-sued-by-pornstar-danica-77789

I came here to see if this was being discussed yet. The plot thickens...

[singsingsing]

Actual sources! Be still, my heart!

I'm a bit puzzled by #11, though. In her previous interview(s), didn't Danica say that Josh was much nicer and better behaved the second time around? That directly contradicts what she's claiming now. I'm assuming that could have negative implications for her case. Regardless, I hope Josh has to testify and all his dirty laundry is aired to the public (obviously, ideally without identifying any of his victims). The more bad press the Duggars get, the more the general public learns about how insanely screwed up they and their cult are, the better. I'm not sure how likely it is that he'll have to testify, though - anyone know? Maybe they'll settle out of court?

[JesSky03]

Can they really use the molestations as evidence though if the records were destroyed?

[notfundy]

Just read the complaint.  I wonder why she didn't file it earlier/right after it happened?  I am guessing because she didn't have any idea who Josh was, and that he might have some financial resources.

If she is not able to work in her chosen field, is that a recent thing?  Or has that been the case since Josh alledgedly assaulted her?  

Danica/Ashley is in a dangerous line of work, but this does not mean she should be assaulted or forced to do things she is not comfortable doing.  I wonder how difficult it will be for her to prevail?  

These are just the questions that ran through my brain. 

[violynn]

Johs is back in the Duggar compound because Danica is suing him, per InTouch.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/josh-duggar-sued-by-pornstar-danica-77789

    

[VelociRapture]

Can they really use the molestations as evidence though if the records were destroyed?

Josh admitted to the molestations publicly. They may not have actual records, but they could easily use evidence taken from InTouch or press releases and use that.

I would guess that they would use that sort of stuff to help build the case that he has a history of abusing women. Maybe someone with legal expertise can offer a better explanation.