Joshley Madison Pt 8: Are We Still Talking About This?

[Mela99]

That is the part that gets me the most. The beating part is incredibly fucked up, obviously. But telling your child you love them while you beat the crap out of them? I can't even fathom. My heart breaks for the poor kids of these fucktards.

 

I saw a similar episode of the American version where the mother would only spank if she was hugging and kissing them while she did, and repeating "Trust and obey!" over and over. Nanny raked her over the coals for it. Sick.

[xlurker]

"promotes a loving atmosphere" ?!  WTF

[Fundie Bunny]

Wow, the spanish version of super nanny featured mostly crappy bratty kids and over permissive parents that lost their tempers really easily. Weird you got it mostly the other way around

[ClaraOswin]

"Loving"....

 

[fraurosena]

 

With this same logic we could also start making ads for men who want to train their wifes to become better wifes but oh wait it is absolutely wrong for adult to hit another adult but somehow it is for good when grownup hits an innocent child. 

I used to watch that show even though I do not have children and  I remember watching Nanny 911 as well. 

Uhm.... there are books for men on how to train your wife* out there...

* my avatar

[tsukinokawa]

 

Uhm.... there are books for men on how to train your wife* out there...

* my avatar

 

*gasp* I wonder what kind of lies they pull out the well of abuse to excuse the domestic violence 

[foreign fundie]

Now a question here. We recently had a fundie family visit us. Although well meaning people, who go through great lengths for their kids, they are into the rod thing. They actually brought it along just in case. It was special bring-along version that fits in a daiperbag. Thank God they did not use it in our house. Their kids looked like frightened little mice, not making eye contact or saying a word. They had quite a few kids already, and will have more, but their existence was barely noticed. (Very unlike my own kids, though not as numerous, you would think there were 15 of them). 

Anyways I wonder if and how I should bring this up with them. I am kind of afraid to invite them again in case one of these kids crosses a line. On the other hand, seeing a slightly more normal family could be healthy for the parents and the kids.

Two more things I found interesting about this family and had not encountered before. Their little girls wore very long skirts, but also wore pants under them, i suppose as an extra modesty thing? Also the children were not allowed to play outside with my kids even though we have a car free 24/7 security and CCTV checked playground in front of our window. Has anyone heard of that before?

[FlamingFundie]

Now a question here. We recently had a fundie family visit us. Although well meaning people, who go through great lengths for their kids, they are into the rod thing. They actually brought it along just in case. It was special bring-along version that fits in a daiperbag. Thank God they did not use it in our house. Their kids looked like frightened little mice, not making eye contact or saying a word. They had quite a few kids already, and will have more, but their existence was barely noticed. (Very unlike my own kids, though not as numerous, you would think there were 15 of them). 

Anyways I wonder if and how I should bring this up with them. I am kind of afraid to invite them again in case one of these kids crosses a line. On the other hand, seeing a slightly more normal family could be healthy for the parents and the kids.

In my house, there is NO hitting, period. I don't care who comes over, but it is extremely clear that on our property absolutely NO HITTING WHATSOEVER, and I am about to include time-outs and shaming in that as well as I cannot stand the way my SIL 'parents' her toddler. I say, your house is your rules. They don't have to come back if they don't want to abide by those rules.

[Valerie3kids]

This is a little off topic but my husband works in a very popular grocery store primarily in the South aka Publix. Several weeks ago, they had a woman who was hitting her child so badly in the store that his head bounced off of one of the sides of the aisles. The manage called 911 and the child was removed from her custody in the parking lot. I don't know what happened after that but just hearing him tell the story made my stomach churn. My thought was if she does that in public what in the hell is she doing to the child at home? The officer also mentioned that that they had six calls from different people in the store about the woman besides the manager. It just made me ill. I can not handle watching people smack or shame their children in pubic. It is just horrible.

[foreign fundie]

I am glad people called the cops on the lady in the shop. But I think there is a difference between people beating their kids up in public out of control, and loving people who for some deeply sad reason believe they have to use a rod to correct their kids' behaviour as it is the biblical thing. Their problem is not lack of love or self control. Their problem is a dogmatic way of thinking that clouds reality. I was given a homeschooling magazine when I started teaching my kids at home while living abroad. It said the Bible does not allow the rod as an OPTION for correction, it commands it's use. A parent who does not use the rod is disobeying God. That was a piece of shocking BS, but made me understand how otherwise nice people can do this.

[Whoosh]

I am glad people called the cops on the lady in the shop. But I think there is a difference between people beating their kids up in public out of control, and loving people who for some deeply sad reason believe they have to use a rod to correct their kids' behaviour as it is the biblical thing. Their problem is not lack of love or self control. Their problem is a dogmatic way of thinking that clouds reality. I was given a homeschooling magazine when I started teaching my kids at home while living abroad. It said the Bible does not allow the rod as an OPTION for correction, it commands it's use. A parent who does not use the rod is disobeying God. That was a piece of shocking BS, but made me understand how otherwise nice people can do this.

How, exactly, do you determine whether a person is "out of control" versus following a religious belief?  Do you feel that sick, twisted beliefs based on the bible deserve special treatment over beliefs based on something else?  If my belief that I should beat the snot out of my child is based on the Koran or on CoS teachings or part of my worship of Satan, would you have this same soft spot in your heart for me?

[foreign fundie]

It is a good question, although 'soft spot' may not be the right phrase. I think the child abuse equally horrible. With some fundies, however I feel like they don't want to beat their kids but believe they should, much like I don't want my child to have painful surgery, but I know she should and I would be a bad mum if I didn't make her go through that. So the problem is not lack of love, but in their case, wrong believes of which both the kids and parents are victims, although not to the same degree. I know the parents have a choice. But the parents themselves may not know that.

[Whoosh]

The same can be said of parents with many different belief systems is all I am saying.  You don't have to be Christian to be loving and grossly misguided.

[foreign fundie]

Maybe it can be compared with female genital mutilation. It is hard to believe any parent likes that procedure for their daughter. Still millions do it. Would removing all those children from well meaning parents be a solution even if it was possible? However much I wish to rescue them all, long term education by people from their own culture is the only way it can be gradually stopped.

[Whoosh]

Maybe it can be compared with female genital mutilation. It is hard to believe any parent likes that procedure for their daughter. Still millions do it. Would removing all those children from well meaning parents be a solution even if it was possible? However much I wish to rescue them all, long term education by people from their own culture is the only way it can be gradually stopped.

This I totally agree with.  Thanks for explaining that.

[batuityma]

Rod beatings are a sensitive topic for me. My cousin has been part of an extreme fundie cult for 30 some years. Its called the Church of God (Restoration). I was maybe 9 or 10 when she and her husband joined. They ended up having 7 children. This cult believes that it is the parent’s godly duty to beat children, even babies, until they submit (often meaning pass out.) Even as a child myself it was obvious something was very wrong with their “church.”  But it wasn’t until I was an adult that a learned about the horrific abuse that these children endured. The beatings were brutal and would leave bruises covering almost their entire bodies. Except for the face or hands or other areas not covered by clothing (And their style of dress is extreme modest so really not much that isn’t covered.)

The two oldest ones who are now in their mid/late 20’s have left the cult. The rest are still in it. I think the youngest is maybe 17 or 18 now. The older two have told stories that have literally made me sick to my stomach. This cult’s abusive practices are well known and it has under been investigation many times but I don’t think much comes of it.  The abuse continues. It is amazing to me that this stuff is allowed to go on in this country.

[foreign fundie]

So sorry you have this happen in your family. It must feel awful to be so powerless. That sounds worse than 'average' misguided fundie discipline. I can get my head around the idea ( not meaning I approve) of a child being beaten proportionally to punish him for an obviouse crime, such as hurting a sibling badly or stealing money. But I have never been able to fanthom the logic of wanting to break a child, beating some sort of rebellion out if him or just torturing them till they pass out. I hope there will be government intervention, because it sounds like a case where children could get permanent injuries or die.

[batuityma]

I know that children have died. Although, I'm not sure I have heard of specific cases where the cause of death was from a beating. More so from untreated illness. The cult doesn't believe in modern medical intervention at all. If someone gets sick they try to "pray it away". If the person dies it was God's will.

I rarely have any contact with my cousin's family now but I did see them a couple years ago.  My Aunt (cousin's mother) turned 80 and the whole extended family had a party for her. It had probably been 5+ years since I had seen my cousin before that. We actually had a very long conversation which seemed weird because it was so normal (if that makes any sense). But at one point when I was talking to her I noticed a large dark discolored patch of skin on the side of her face. It looked really weird. My first thought was melanoma. (In fact, I did a google image search on my phone as soon as we got in the car to leave.) If it was skin cancer I know she would not be getting any medical treatment. That was 2 or 3 years ago though and I haven't heard anything about her being in poor health so maybe it wasn't anything serious. But still scary to know that if it was skin cancer she wouldn't attempt to get it treated. It's insane.

[ClaraOswin]

I have a hard time having any sympathy for these types of parents. They are adults with, by all accounts, fully functioning brains. There's no excuse to me when it comes to abusing a child.

[sophie10130]

This is a little off topic but my husband works in a very popular grocery store primarily in the South aka Publix. Several weeks ago, they had a woman who was hitting her child so badly in the store that his head bounced off of one of the sides of the aisles. The manage called 911 and the child was removed from her custody in the parking lot. I don't know what happened after that but just hearing him tell the story made my stomach churn. My thought was if she does that in public what in the hell is she doing to the child at home? The officer also mentioned that that they had six calls from different people in the store about the woman besides the manager. It just made me ill. I can not handle watching people smack or shame their children in pubic. It is just horrible.

the worst part is when people say "Ugh, more of the government trying to take control of my personal life. How I see fit to punish my kid should be MY prerogative! No wonder there are so many brats these days! Kids just need a good thump to teach them a lesson!" yada yada yada

I have heard it from people my age (very young 20s) who just had a kid. They heard of a dad who spanked his son in the parking lot and he got the cops called on him. They were up in arms! The couldn't believe that he "wasn't allowed" to hit his kid in public. 

I shook my head and stayed quiet. I just could not engage in a conversation with those people about that.

[foreign fundie]

I think for me it would depend on the situation. If you are in a hurry, have your arms full of groceries and your kid gets a fit over something silly and sits down on the street, I can imagine a desperate parent would slap a kid and tell him to get his butt in the car now. That it very different from a kid being beaten up, getting a public spanking with an object or being injured on purpose. The desperate parent would need some help finding ways to control their kids in a better way. In the latter case, intervention by law enforcement is justified I think.

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

 

 http://www.nospank.net/rod-2.gif 

 

This ad is just insane.  But I can't say that I am really all that surprised to see such a product exists. 

I remember being really shocked back when I was still a teenager in the late 80s, when I spent 6 months in France as an au pair (kind of like a home stay language exchange thing where you do some childcare or light housework in exchange for room, board, and pocket money.) The first day the mother showed me the "martinet"  that I was supposed to use to discipline her kids (3yr old and 6 yr old.)  It was a short wooden handle with some multicolored leather strip attached to one eND.  She must have seen my face because she looked a little embarrassed and said it was only if they were REALLY bad. (Um. ..what? ) I  was very freaked out about the whole thing. 

In the end it turned out not to be as big a deal as I thought.  I never once saw them actually hit the kids with it.  The most I ever saw was once where they sort of whapped it on the ground near the kids shoe so it would make a bit of noise.  Mostly it was used as a threat (Stop doing x, or I will get the martinet!)  Now don't get me wrong, I still don't agree with the concept of frightening children into obedience, but at least they were not hitting them. I never really got comfortable with the concept of the martinet.  I kind of chalked it up to one of those cultural differences. 

I never did use it and mostly the kids still listened.  Mostly.  At least my  French family's goal was not to"train" them up to be perfect little automatons, so it could have been worse.  Im so glad now that i didn't end up as an au pair for one of these rod using, blanket training families.  I don't know if at 19 I would have had what it takes to do the right thing and speak out against it.  I mean I never really said anything to my French family about it and it was nowhere near as bad.  I would like to think I would have had the courage to speak/take action against a Fundy family, but who knows. 

[sophie10130]

I think for me it would depend on the situation. If you are in a hurry, have your arms full of groceries and your kid gets a fit over something silly and sits down on the street, I can imagine a desperate parent would slap a kid and tell him to get his butt in the car now. That it very different from a kid being beaten up, getting a public spanking with an object or being injured on purpose. The desperate parent would need some help finding ways to control their kids in a better way. In the latter case, intervention by law enforcement is justified I think.

I was never spanked as a kid, so in my eyes it's all a bit alarming. But to me, it would take A LOT for me to call the cops on a stranger in a parking lot about it.

I don't mean to get into a fight about spanking vs. not spanking. It gets hairy pretty fast and I'm not really interested in inciting that here. I just think it's unsettling that people believe that because they are THEIR KIDS they can do whatever the fuck they want to them because they own them or whatever and their kids body autonomy doesn't come into play at all.

[livinginthelight]

@foreign fundie, I think you are very caring and I think it is good that this family visits you. I think I might try to gently start asking questions of them. Questions like why they don't allow their kids to play outside, and is there something that would make it more comfortable for their kids to be outside (like if you brought out lawn chairs and watched them.) What are their concerns? And asking their theories on instilling decision-making skills: when should kids be given choices, how much independence should kids have at what ages, how do you prepare them to leave the nest, etc.

Often questions will stick in a person's brain in a way that statements won't, because fundies are trained to see statements from outsiders as worldly propaganda.

And it might be good for the kids to hear you gently questioning. And to see that your kids live under a different system.

[foreign fundie]

@foreign fundie, I think you are very caring and I think it is good that this family visits you. I think I might try to gently start asking questions of them. Questions like why they don't allow their kids to play outside, and is there something that would make it more comfortable for their kids to be outside (like if you brought out lawn chairs and watched them.) What are their concerns? And asking their theories on instilling decision-making skills: when should kids be given choices, how much independence should kids have at what ages, how do you prepare them to leave the nest, etc.

Often questions will stick in a person's brain in a way that statements won't, because fundies are trained to see statements from outsiders as worldly propaganda.

And it might be good for the kids to hear you gently questioning. And to see that your kids live under a different system.

That may be a good option. One of the reasons I found it hard to bring things up is that their kids are right there in the room with us all the time and I don't think it is very appropriate (and probably counterproductive) to criticize people's ways of raising their kids in front of them.