Joshley Madison Pt 7: O Smuggar Where Art Thou?

[justwatching]

I have a deep-seeded dislike for people who give English a bad wrap by claiming that for all intensive purposes, the original meanings of phrases, and the corruptions from this day in age are one in the same, or barely a hare's breath apart. It's a tough road to hoe, but it serves as an abject lesson in this doggy-dog world. But far be it for me to leave language at the beckon call of people who's understanding of words in an epoch failure. I suppose some people must of decided that preserving old meanings is an idea running neck in neck with storing you're fortune in a safety-deposit box and waiting on tenderhooks for interest.

Chow!

Thank you for giving us a peace of your mind. I have much more piece of mind after hearing that.

The whole Catholic bashing thing is making me :cry: . When I was taught my church history, the separation from the Catholic church was discussed, but it was always matter-of-fact (this person disagreed with this person so went & did his own thing), and never disrespectful. I can't imagine a sermon or youth group focus on that. There are much more important things to talk about in church.

I once worked in an office where we had a Mennonite (me), Catholic, Baptist & Lutheran. We had the most interesting theological discussions. We were all friends and were very respectful of each others' beliefs. It was a great experience.

My best friend is Catholic. I love to visit with her about her church and theology.

[apple1]

That disastrous FBCHammond/ HAC/ Hyles/ Schaap mess has been discussed before on FJ - but not to the extent that it probably deserves. It is my personal opinion that they have done far more harm than the Duggars et. al. Dang, even now, this discussion has been brought up only as an ancillary item to the Josh Duggar/ possibly RU discussion. IMHO FJ didn't seem all that interested.

FBCHammond, while being an IFB church, does NOT (IMHO) represent other IFB churches. (The I means independent...) There are a group of other IFB churches pastored by HAC grads that somewhat exhibit the characteristics of FBCHammond.

That obscene video (Schaap polishing the shaft) was filmed during an event called Youth Conference (which only makes it worse that it was done for a primarily-youth audience). FBCHammond had a practice of having staff ("associate pastors", etc) dressed alike during these events which were intended to present FBCHammond/HAC as the pinnacle of IFB-dom. Suffice to say that they failed.

[Fundie Bunny]

Now Miss Smug Seewald is giving her opinion on the matter. Did anyone need that? I don't think so.

www.people.com/article/jessa-duggar-see ... r-scandals

[church_of_dog]

Did she? I didn't know that. Her parents were together but not married until she was much older so I thought her name was always Duggar because it was her mom's name - but I admit I just assumed so I could be way off.

Even if she did change it I wouldn't think less of her. Its not like she's a fan who took the name - she's as entitled to it as a family names as any of the 19 are. One of my kids changed their last name after turning 18 to my maiden name and it wasn't due to any rancor toward his dad. He just really liked mine better and couldn't see any reason to keep the one they liked less since I was just as much his parent as his dad. I couldn't argue with that - and he's way happier. Names are so personal it's not something I tend to judge.

I had to go back and look at some of your other posts to make sure you're not a good friend I've lost touch with recently, because the bolded fits her experience as well. She recently retired as a Methodist pastor and I'm pretty sure I saw references to assure me that's not you (I couldn't remember your details from my regular reading, but just skimmed now). Do let me know if I'm wrong! Assuming it's not you, then obviously this is not an unheard of thing for kids to do with their name.

[Themiscyran]

Article about the sermon at Cross Church yesterday, where apparently all of the Duggars except the Seewalds were present. It was about Pr0n, apparently. Nothing about shaft-polishing, but there was this gem:

Pastor Crawford later compared pornography to football, saying that Satan has a “playbook†and“the word of God helps us to know the playbook.â€

:wtf:

http://www.etonline.com/news/171395_dug ... f_wedding/

(link not broken bc "news" source)

[Themiscyran]

Here's a story about the RU "treatment" centre from the local Rockford paper:

http://www.rrstar.com/article/20150906/ ... 4/?Start=1

It answers the question I've had about where they generate their "80% success rate" statistic:

Richardson said Reformers Unanimous methods result in an 80 percent success rate in its treatment centers, in that its graduates have not relapsed within two years. The group knows this because graduates are supported by churches with Friday night meetings in which they participate, and they typically attend Sunday worship services.

So, this is self-reporting based on the people who actually go to follow up meetings at their local churches. The people who drop out of the meetings or never attend don't figure in the count. And they only count two years, which really isn't very long. Talk about defrauding!

Good grief.

[blessalessi]

Now Miss Smug Seewald is giving her opinion on the matter. Did anyone need that? I don't think so.

http://www.people.com/article/jessa-dug ... r-scandals

To be fair, they probably have a teeny weeny bit more justification to weigh in on the subject than anyone here on Free Jinger, so.... :whistle:

[runannarun]

as a former catholic, now atheist, I find the fighting among various religions amusing and pathetic. A St. Jude's medal is = to the Duggar's refusal to dance.

it's all crowd control.

[jqlgoblue]

Most Catholics I know don't give a rats ass about what other people believe. I'm not saying it the bastion of tolerance - plenty of Catholics I know don't embrace other belief systems marrying into the family, and sure as shit don't appreciate people trying to "save" us but most of us don't spend of energy worried about what other churches are teaching.

Thanks Buffy for the Mary/saints explanation. I think evangelicals are purposely misinformed about Catholics and non-Christians alike in ways that make evangelicals more likely to see a need to convert them.

My sense for the reason Catholics don't give a crap about what other people believe (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is primarily b/c Catholicism is not an Evangelical denomination. They aren't tasked with converting others as a part of building up their godliness with Jesus/God.

I think other things at play are Catholicism came first, they tend to truly believe in deeds as good works and not just converting souls, and I *think* they believe all Christians will go to heaven, regardless of denomination and the fact that all other denominations split off from / "left" Catholicism. (I know all of this is a severe oversimplification BTW).

The competition between Christian denominations is also funny, as is the non-denominational "we're better than any denomination" mentality. My sense for this is it's all basically a sales pitch to get the most people in your denomination (or non-denomination :)) -- so if you aren't better / the only one that results in going to heaven your pitch becomes a lot more complicated.

[Rescinded and Mended]

So "Satan's Pornography Playbook" as a new user title? :dance:

[st4rfl33t]

Did she? I didn't know that. Her parents were together but not married until she was much older so I thought her name was always Duggar because it was her mom's name - but I admit I just assumed so I could be way off.

Even if she did change it I wouldn't think less of her. Its not like she's a fan who took the name - she's as entitled to it as a family names as any of the 19 are. One of my kids changed their last name after turning 18 to my maiden name and it wasn't due to any rancor toward his dad. He just really liked mine better and couldn't see any reason to keep the one they liked less since I was just as much his parent as his dad. I couldn't argue with that - and he's way happier. Names are so personal it's not something I tend to judge.

If it were me I'd have gone with Jordan in a hot minute because estheticly I think it sounds so much better than Duggar, but to each their own.

I thought we called her Famy just because of her showboating, coattail riding , attention courting, no job having, stardom chasing lifestyle of hers.

Among other things I guess.

[st4rfl33t]

Now Miss Smug Seewald is giving her opinion on the matter. Did anyone need that? I don't think so.

http://www.people.com/article/jessa-dug ... r-scandals

Ben's sister Jessica is the one speaking in the article. (their names are so similar now lol... jessa and jessica..)

Unless "Miss Smug Seewald" is Jessica..

[Fundie Bunny]

Ben's sister Jessica is the one speaking in the article. (their names are so similar now lol... jessa and jessica..)

Unless "Miss Smug Seewald" is Jessica..

Yes, Jessa is MRS. Smug Seewald, duh :lol:

[Whoosh]

The competition between Christian denominations is also funny, as is the non-denominational "we're better than any denomination" mentality. My sense for this is it's all basically a sales pitch to get the most people in your denomination (or non-denomination :)) -- so if you aren't better / the only one that results in going to heaven your pitch becomes a lot more complicated.

As a non-theist who was raised "Catholic lite" (Episcopalian = all the redemption, half the guilt :wink-kitty: ), I would love if someone could explain to me exactly what "non-denominational Christian" is supposed to mean. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that these are really Evangelical non-denominational churches, but I have no idea if this is always the case.

I often wind up feeling that the whole term "protestant" should be dropped. The church I was raised in had little in common with what I know of Evangelical traditions and in my mind was far more similar to the Catholic church in many ways (though I am sure many Catholics might strongly disagree).

[Themiscyran]

Thanks Buffy for the Mary/saints explanation. I think evangelicals are purposely misinformed about Catholics and non-Christians alike in ways that make evangelicals more likely to see a need to convert them.

My sense for the reason Catholics don't give a crap about what other people believe (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is primarily b/c Catholicism is not an Evangelical denomination. They aren't tasked with converting others as a part of building up their godliness with Jesus/God.

I think other things at play are Catholicism came first, they tend to truly believe in deeds as good works and not just converting souls, and I *think* they believe all Christians will go to heaven, regardless of denomination and the fact that all other denominations split off from / "left" Catholicism. (I know all of this is a severe oversimplification BTW).

(snip)

In my many years of Catholic schools, there was a much greater emphasis on the so-called "Great commandment" (Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. —Matthew 22:35-40) as well as Jesus' commandments to Peter (He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. --John 21:17).

Practically translated, that meant an emphasis on acts of charity and working for justice as the heart of what Jesus wanted his followers to do.

By contrast, my fundie Baptist friends had the so-called "great commission" much more at the heart of their upbringing ( And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18-20).

Practically translated, that meant an emphasis on conversion and spreading the word at the heart of what Jesus wanted his followers to do.

Of course there are fundie groups that actually do emphasize charitable works and there are definitely Catholic evangelizers but it always does seem to come down to this big split. (eta: And the Anglican church I grew up in seemed to spend a lot of time moaning that we weren't very good at either evangelizing or charity, lol. )

[Themiscyran]

As a non-theist who was raised "Catholic lite" (Episcopalian = all the redemption, half the guilt :wink-kitty: ), I would love if someone could explain to me exactly what "non-denominational Christian" is supposed to mean. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that these are really Evangelical non-denominational churches, but I have no idea if this is always the case.

I often wind up feeling that the whole term "protestant" should be dropped. The church I was raised in had little in common with what I know of Evangelical traditions and in my mind was far more similar to the Catholic church in many ways (though I am sure many Catholics might strongly disagree).

There are definitely ways in which the more liturgically-oriented churches have a lot more in common with each other than non-liturgically-oriented churches. Like when I've walked into a Catholic, Anglican/Episcopal, Swedish* Lutheran, or Orthodox church, I generally knew what's going on. When I've been to an Evangelical service I am totally lost. If I go to a Protestant church that's less liturgical (Methodists or American baptists for ex) but not necessarily full-on evangelical, it's somewhere in between.

And those "non-demominational" churches have always been ones where I am TOTALLY lost. But I've only been to the big megachurch ones. Do smaller ones exist?

*I know Lutheran churches vary, but the Swedish one I went to once was like Anglicanism, but in Swedish, lol. Even though I don't really follow Swedish I knew what was going on more or less.

**Yes there are actually reasons I have been to so many churches, sigh. not all of them voluntary.

(edited for riffles and clarity)

[freejingerbeth]

Firstable, I noticed a riffle in my previous post: "in an epoch failure" should have been "is an epoch failure".

This is the cross-eyed bear. Now as a pennants, I must dusk off my creativity to give this game a new leash on life. I don't mean to signal out anyone specifically, or be disingenuine, but certain groups of people are straddled with a poor understanding of ergonomics that I have to chock up to pore education. Once such group maybe Josh and and his insectuous elk, to name a view. Some people may say it's hyperbowl to make such a raucous, but I think that's just a fetal excuse from people who are in high dungeon and have gone to great links to decrepit their opposing counterparks with the idea that money is no option. During the current physical year, I've thralled through alot of financial data, and the results show that some people just can't curve their spendings. Even what people a ledge to be a free lunch has slings attached by those who are coal-hearted enough to do their upmost to cheat a dough-eyed innocent. But if you treat someone like a leopard just to slack your own first, you're fermenting trouble. The result of this wreckless behaviour will reel its ugly head when you try to intergrade the preannual mixmatch of expenses. Any southmore with a giga-counter can detect the jar-dropping embarrassment of having to cow-tow when you discover such an alterior motive. It's not worth the mindgrain of having to literally swim a knotical mile as a bi-product of actions that go beyond the pail of decent sea.

On the ether hand, image an being tolled the only way to strum-up support for your pointer view was to show off your midrift? Maybe you can pawn that off on a quaint ants before the situation gets expotentially worse, but that isn't fullproof. I can't mix my words here: whether you stand stalk-still, or with flying collars, the results would be half-hazard. In any case, you'll pay an exuberant price. This really gets people's dandruff up. The resulting cacoughony is allowed enough noise to overlowed a LAN-line. But don't get boggled down trying to lip-sing, because contemporary music is not above approach. Some people think it's floorless manner from heaven, but others think it's a pus-jewel on the face of the preforming arts. You won't fine me in the march pit!

I recently herd from a professor on the ten-year track who had done alot of sturdy of wind turbans. While I'm not up to day on that subject, please give me some leadway before you lamblast me. It takes a lot for one of these turbans to give up the goat, and they can power a self-phone tower, which I think you'll agree can be a god's end. But there's no love loss for people who give constriction plants a thumps up, and then get their nipples in a twist when what they thought was down packed ends up looking like sandscript. But after they chute the manager it ends up being much to do about nothing. Or else it's a pincher attack by rapid fans who mist their winfall.

Moving foreword, I can't keep tract of everything I've said, but if I cut to the cheese right now I think that would be putting the cat before the whores. (Don't worry, I'm good enough at marshal arts to avoid the eminent add homonym attack.) Now that statement has all the subtle tea of a bowl in a china shop, but I've been fighting people on this issue like hammer and thongs, which I think has demon-straightened my poweress is up to stuff. I'm not too squirmish to crawl on our fours if knead be. As an in-term measure, I can easily snob all those Monday concerns that my argument is floundering due to my hand-fisted and hack-kneed responses and antiques which should have caused me my job. Perhaps my prospective is skewered, and I've been brandying about an exclamation that can't be understood by anyone outside my right-wind click. But the dye is cast now: anyone with a posable thumb is lie able to get post dramatic stress from having their elementary canal rimming with barred wire.

Sorry, you're probably all dissolutioned by the cosmic dissidence. It's time for us to part waves now. *dawns fedora*

I am in awe. This is amazing! That is all.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I had to go back and look at some of your other posts to make sure you're not a good friend I've lost touch with recently, because the bolded fits her experience as well. She recently retired as a Methodist pastor and I'm pretty sure I saw references to assure me that's not you (I couldn't remember your details from my regular reading, but just skimmed now). Do let me know if I'm wrong! Assuming it's not you, then obviously this is not an unheard of thing for kids to do with their name.

It's not super common, but not unheard of, I know several people who did once they were old enough that they didn't need parental permission. Tbf most of those people had emotional reasons as well (their dad had been out of the picture for years, bad blood, etc) and they took either their mom or stepdads last name.

In our area it cost just shy of $600 and took a couple of months as there is a requirement to run ads in the paper notifying debtors, etc. and the court runs a background check to make sure you're not hiding a criminal past and if you owe child support have to prove they've been notified.

My son wanted to do it in highschool but the paperwork was even more complicated as his dad would have had to sign stuff and while he's accepted it, it would have been more difficult. It's funny, his grandparents (dad's parents) were very upset and wrote him a long letter about how nice it was that he wanted to honor me and they realize I was the one who raised him, he shouldn't hate his father or reject his dad's side of the family.

Yes, kiddo is closer to me because his dad wasn't great about coming into town but the Gods honest truth is it was completely 100% what he thought sounded cooler. His original last name is super common (always other unrelated kids in school with same name) and he waffled between mine and my husbands and mine won out literally because it sounded "more bad ass." :lol: Just funny that they still refuse to accept that it was mere aesthetics and not a passive aggressive statement.

The kid has had things to say to his dad and he's said them - he doesn't do passive aggressive and he really is that shallow. (Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.)

He's always hated his first name and so he did that at the same time. Sounds weird to some people but if you hate your name it's a big deal. I loved the name I gave him at birth, but he hated it and he should be happy and it's better to do it while just turning 18 before establishing credit, starting college, etc. He did consult me when picking his new first name so I feel like I got to name him twice. I actually like this one even better.

Everyone I told was surprised I didn't have an issue with it, but the way I look at it is wen his teeth weren't straight we got him to the orthodontist. If he'd had a correctable disfigurement he we'd have gotten it corrected. He had something he hated so why suffer and be self conscious when it's easily changed. Heck, i know more quite a few people who got nose jobs between ages 16-20 so this is no stranger than that. Just less painful.

He had always said if he got married he'd take her name if he liked it and didn't see why his fathers name should be the default when kids have two or more parents. His logic was instead of waiting to see if he ever got married and then if she had a last name cooler than his it was easier to do it himself. If he has kids he says they'll get his or hers depending on which sounds better. He's not a very patriarchy oriented kind of kid.

And :lol: :lol: I couldnt be a Methodist minister if my life depended on it. I know my gramma was raised Methodist for a time before converting for my Catholic grandpa, but I couldn't tell you one tenet of their faith, I assume they believe in Jesus, but that's all I got! I'm a lapsed/conflicted Catholic. I do sometimes pray on the job, but that's only because I'm in IT and I'm praying for the strength to keep from smacking people. They aren't very pious prayers and most of them contain very nsfw language.

I like your posts a lot so it would have been cool if I was your real life friend, but i can't even sit through a church service much less lead one. :lol:

[Themiscyran]

I agree that it is comfortingly like RC worship but much less dogmatic and focused on sin. Some of the fundie families we snark about remind me about some super-Catholic families I knew in my youth. Huge families, fear of going to hell, over-worry about sexual "purity" etc.... And definitely the idea that if you are not RC you are going to Hell.

It has changed. Even the cousin I have who is a nun does not think I am going to hell. :)

I think some of the more conservative groups still believe that--the ones that want to pretend Vatican II doesn't exist. Tridentines? I can't remember the name, but Mel Gibson's dad belongs to one of these groups and although Gibson usually just calls himself 'Catholic" he seemed to share this belief about non-Catholics all ebing bound for hell. It sticks in my head bc the first inkling I had of what a huge asshole he is came in some press interview around the time of The Passion of the Christ, and he was saying that his wife was a wonderful good person and a great Christian but she was going to hell because she's an Episcopalian and it was sad but it was true and I was like.... who SAYS that about their spouse? The mother of their children? I mean, saying it to the press? even if you believe it, seriously??? WHAT. AN. ASSHOLE.

[Themiscyran]

(snipped)

Everyone I told was surprised I didn't have an issue with it, but the way I look at it is wen his teeth weren't straight we got him to the orthodontist. If he'd had a correctable disfigurement he we'd have gotten it corrected. He had something he hated so why suffer and be self conscious when it's easily changed. Heck, i know more quite a few people who got nose jobs between ages 16-20 so this is no stranger than that. Just less painful.

HerNameIsBuffy, I just wanted to say I think it's really cool that you took that attitude. A lot of parents would not have been so chill and so empathetic to how their child was feeling. Your son is really fortunate to have you as his mother!

[EmCatlyn]

I think some of the more conservative groups still believe that--the ones that want to pretend Vatican II doesn't exist. Tridentines? I can't remember the name, but Mel Gibson's dad belongs to one of these groups and although Gibson usually just calls himself 'Catholic" he seemed to share this belief about non-Catholics all ebing bound for hell. It sticks in my head bc the first inkling I had of what a huge asshole he is came in some press interview around the time of The Passion of the Christ, and he was saying that his wife was a wonderful good person and a great Christian but she was going to hell because she's an Episcopalian and it was sad but it was true and I was like.... who SAYS that about their spouse? The mother of their children? I mean, saying it to the press? even if you believe it, seriously??? WHAT. AN. ASSHOLE.

Yeah, Gibson represents Roman Catholicism's version of Fundies. They don't come my way much. I am more surrounded by the Baptist and Church of Christ versions of Fundiness.

And the RC is definitely less tolerant and open than the Episcopal church, which is why I now count myself an Episcopalian (and why some Episcopal congregations have either voted to become RC along with their pastor or left the Episcopal fold and now call themselves American Anglican).

[zebra #13]

Catholics as missionaries? Think they've one-upped all the rest of the Christians put together, lol! The Jesuits arrived in both China and Japan in the mid-1500s. The difference seems to me to be that our modern evangelicals send the youngest, most inexperienced out to do the work, and Catholics send their wisest, most educated, most dedicated. For Catholics, the converting comes as secondary to the good works aspect.

Growing up Mormon, one of my big gripes with the church was they had a huge welfare program, but it was only to take care of themselves. They're trying to branch out now, but relative to their resources, it's feeble and anemic.

Wonder if that's all connected to their politics? Catholics are pretty reliably librul, and evangelicals are pretty seriously conservatives.

[RosyDaisy]

Watched about a minute of the video......ewwwwwwww.

Hubby thought I was watching a bad porno....LOL!

[pamplemousse]

I love this and am borrowing this. I read this to my DH who grew up in Pilsen neighborhood of Chicago and his dad was active in politics. He was like, yep that's about right.

Will be handy when explaining to SILs fundie friends why I wear a St. Jude metal.

Hah! I'm originally from Chicago and, before I moved to where I am now, lived in East Pilsen for several years. My landlady's daughter was a precinct captain. And, yes, your DH nailed it.

[Themiscyran]

Yeah, Gibson represents Roman Catholicism's version of Fundies. They don't come my way much. I am more surrounded by the Baptist and Church of Christ versions of Fundiness.

And the RC is definitely less tolerant and open than the Episcopal church, which is why I now count myself an Episcopalian (and why some Episcopal congregations have either voted to become RC along with their pastor or left the Episcopal fold and now call themselves American Anglican).

Yeah, I grew up in one of those breakaway groups that left the Episcopal/Anglican church because of female priests. Not really "fundie," but definitely not liberal either. Women could certainly have secular careers and should be educated, etc. but couldn't be ordained or even be acolytes or lay readers, just serve on the altar guild, sing in choirs (but not be cantors for sung masses) and serve on the vestry. Bleah. And homosexuality was supposedly wrong, but of course there were tons of not-very-well closeted clergy. (There were some really scary Operation rescue type anti-abortion people, too, to the point whenever I hear of violent attacks on clinics I wonder if it was someone I once knew.) However they definitely weren't anti-intellectual or Biblical literalists or anything of that sort, nor was there any kind of homeschooling thing or anti-birth control attitude. Some people certainly practiced a sort of "headship" attitude in their families, but that was very much voluntary and not required (def. did not apply in my family!)

I did find the word for Hutton Gibson's belief: "Sedevacantism" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) it's quite the rabbit hole to go down: these are basically the extremists who not only disapprove of Vatican II, they don't even think the pope is legit.

Sounds like the perfect subject of TLC's next warm and fuzzy reality show! :pink-shock: