The European Refugee Crisis - MERGED

[latraviata]

[bBvideo 560,340:3hbvuwvw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6sIl5whsg[/bBvideo]

[bBvideo 560,340:3hbvuwvw]

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[Pretzel]

What statement are you trying to make with those videos, latraviata?

[latraviata]

What statement are you trying to make with those videos, latraviata?

What do you think?

There is so much more to this crisis than only cheap sentiment. First of all, the refugees or migrants are not exclusively Syrian. A good number of them are economic fortune seekers from all over the Middle East. The rich Arab countries don't want them because of the numerous ISIS jihadies, it is simply too dangerous.

I do not participate on the issues or delusion of the day and no, I am not a racist, nazi, nor I am a right wing voter or sympathizer.

[Jenesis]

1. How do you correctly identify these refugee's when they do not have verifiable identification from their home country? Are they criminals? Are they ISIS?

2. Why aren't countries like Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates taking any refugees?

3. How will the countries that are accepting refugees absorb such a large influx of people into their economies? Will the infrastructure be sufficient? (food, work, shelter, healthcare, welfare, education, etc..)

4. What they are fleeing from: ISIS, corrupt governments, war...they will inevitably bring their problems along with them or be followed if enough people flee their home countries. At some point when is it enough? When is it time for them to solve the problems in their home land themselves? I do not think outside "help" works, as many of the refugees are coming from Iraq and Afghanistan, which were supposedly "liberated".

5. The refugees can not all go to a 5 or 6 countries, they need to be divided evenly, yet a country should have a right to refuse any refugees if the people do not want them there.

No easy answer to this problem because there are innocent people and families trying to protect their kids. There are also people that are going to cause many problems for Europe and America and you have to consider that these people could make the west very similar to the middle east.

[latraviata]

1. How do you correctly identify these refugee's when they do not have verifiable identification from their home country? Are they criminals? Are they ISIS?

2. Why aren't countries like Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates taking any refugees?

3. How will the countries that are accepting refugees absorb such a large influx of people into their economies? Will the infrastructure be sufficient? (food, work, shelter, healthcare, welfare, education, etc..)

4. What they are fleeing from: ISIS, corrupt governments, war...they will inevitably bring their problems along with them or be followed if enough people flee their home countries. At some point when is it enough? When is it time for them to solve the problems in their home land themselves? I do not think outside "help" works, as many of the refugees are coming from Iraq and Afghanistan, which were supposedly "liberated".

5. The refugees can not all go to a 5 or 6 countries, they need to be divided evenly, yet a country should have a right to refuse any refugees if the people do not want them there.

No easy answer to this problem because there are innocent people and families trying to protect their kids. There are also people that are going to cause many problems for Europe and America and you have to consider that these people could make the west very similar to the middle east.

The real tragedy is, it is at the expense of the real refugees.

[2xx1xy1JD]

More processing at points of origin would make sense. It would be easier to figure out who comes from here, who is legit vs. not, and it would avoid the chaos and danger of the migration process.

I'm not really sure what those videos are supposed to show. Yes, a mess was left. That's what happens when you have a ton of people anywhere - esp. if they don't have proper shelter and tend to be frantic.

Unfortunately, many of these refugees may be in limbo for some time, because it won't be easy for officials to separate out all of the legitimate refugees from potential ISIS or other bad guys.

Another issue is the fact that the Syrian refugees may be from different groups within Syria, which are currently at war. So, what happens when a family of Sunni Muslims who were targeted by Assad for living in a Muslim Brotherhood stronghold find themselves together with an Alawite family of Assad supporters who are fleeing from rebel groups like ISIS?

[PregnantPornStar]

What do you think?

There is so much more to this crisis than only cheap sentiment. First of all, the refugees or migrants are not exclusively Syrian. A good number of them are economic fortune seekers from all over the Middle East. The rich Arab countries don't want them because of the numerous ISIS jihadies, it is simply too dangerous.

I do not participate on the issues or delusion of the day and no, I am not a racist, nazi, nor I am a right wing voter or sympathizer.

Agree with latraviata here, which is clearly an unpopular opinion. This whole thing is a true mess and huge tragedy. Of course there are innocent people who are seeking safety, but can we honestly say that opening the doors for everyone is the right answer? I don't think anyone can honestly deny that there is not a risk or danger involved. ISIS is a real threat, and a bigger threat than we were being told.

[latraviata]

More processing at points of origin would make sense. It would be easier to figure out who comes from here, who is legit vs. not, and it would avoid the chaos and danger of the migration process.

I'm not really sure what those videos are supposed to show. Yes, a mess was left. That's what happens when you have a ton of people anywhere - esp. if they don't have proper shelter and tend to be frantic.

Unfortunately, many of these refugees may be in limbo for some time, because it won't be easy for officials to separate out all of the legitimate refugees from potential ISIS or other bad guys.

Another issue is the fact that the Syrian refugees may be from different groups within Syria, which are currently at war. So, what happens when a family of Sunni Muslims who were targeted by Assad for living in a Muslim Brotherhood stronghold find themselves together with an Alawite family of Assad supporters who are fleeing from rebel groups like ISIS?

This is only the tip of the iceberg, I have seen and read far worse.

Between the burden of quilt European policy are placing on the shoulders of the European people and the discontent of this people, creates a void and far right wing jumps into it.

Europe already has an enormous problem with the followers of the religion of peace as it is. Denying and explaining it away really doesn't help, again an opportunity for the far right parties to jump right in, is that what we want?

[PregnantPornStar]

This is only the tip of the iceberg, I have seen and read far worse.

Between the burden of quilt European policy are placing on the shoulders of the European people and the discontent of this people, creates a void and far right wing jumps into it.

Europe already has an enormous problem with the followers of the religion of peace as it is. Denying and explaining it away really doesn't help, again an opportunity for the far right parties to jump right in, is that what we want?

Interesting thought.

Do you mind me asking what you could see far right parties in Europe wanting to do? I spent four years living in Germany, but lived under an American umbrella for the most part.

[Sundaymorning]

This is only the tip of the iceberg, I have seen and read far worse.

Between the burden of quilt European policy are placing on the shoulders of the European people and the discontent of this people, creates a void and far right wing jumps into it.

Europe already has an enormous problem with the followers of the religion of peace as it is. Denying and explaining it away really doesn't help, again an opportunity for the far right parties to jump right in, is that what we want?

I agree.

The problem is that still too many people and most politicians want to avoid a frank discussion about certain facts, they prefer to dismiss everyone who brings it up as nazi and horrible person. The people who suffer the most under this self-imposed ignorance are the many immigrants who try to assimilate and who really love their new country.

The major of Rotterdam said what should have been the official policy in all European countries for decades:

“It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom,†he said. “But if you do not like freedom, in Heaven’s name pack your bag and leave.â€

“There may be a place in the world where you can be yourself,†he continued. “Be honest with yourself and do not go and kill innocent journalists,†Aboutaleb, a Muslim himself, said.

“And if you do not like it here because humorists you do not like make a newspaper, may I then say you can fuck off.â€

“This is stupid, this so incomprehensible,†he also said. “Vanish from the Netherlands if you cannot find your place here.â€

(nltimes.nl/2015/01/08/muslims-dont-like-free-speech-can-fuck-off-rotterdam-mayor/)

I would extent that to all immigrants who refuse to accept our values and laws (like gender equality). I would kick them out faster than they can count to three. But of course, those who generally claim that they support gender equality and the rights of LGBT people and such are the first who will call you a bad nazi if you bring up things like that.

And by doing so, they are doing a huge disservice not only for the general population, but especially for the refugees who really need help and for other immigrants who will suffer most under the raising racism. And it's not the right-wing parties who are maily responsible for this, but the PC-obsessed politicians who refuse to open their eyes.

[PregnantPornStar]

I agree.

The problem is that still too many people and most politicians want to avoid a frank discussion about certain facts, they prefer to dismiss everyone who brings it up as nazi and horrible person. The people who suffer the most under this self-imposed ignorance are the many immigrants who try to assimilate and who really love their new country.

The major of Rotterdam said what should have been the official policy in all European countries for decades:

“It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom,†he said. “But if you do not like freedom, in Heaven’s name pack your bag and leave.â€

“There may be a place in the world where you can be yourself,†he continued. “Be honest with yourself and do not go and kill innocent journalists,†Aboutaleb, a Muslim himself, said.

“And if you do not like it here because humorists you do not like make a newspaper, may I then say you can fuck off.â€

“This is stupid, this so incomprehensible,†he also said. “Vanish from the Netherlands if you cannot find your place here.â€

(nltimes.nl/2015/01/08/muslims-dont-like-free-speech-can-fuck-off-rotterdam-mayor/)

I would extent that to all immigrants who refuse to accept our values and laws (like gender equality). I would kick them out faster than they can count to three. But of course, those who generally claim that they support gender equality and the rights of LGBT people and such are the first who will call you a bad nazi if you bring up things like that.

And by doing so, they are doing a huge disservice not only for the general population, but especially for the refugees who really need help and for other immigrants who will suffer most under the raising racism. And it's not the right-wing parties who are maily responsible for this, but the PC-obsessed politicians who refuse to open their eyes.

Exactly this. I can understand that Germany's dwindling population could benefit from this, but if honest discussions are not had, I am sure racism will become a very large part of the problem. It seems that the current plan is hurting everyone involved and the refugees seeking help are going to be lumped in with every bad thing that happens.

[Anny Nym]

Unfortunately, many of these refugees may be in limbo for some time, because it won't be easy for officials to separate out all of the legitimate refugees from potential ISIS or other bad guys.

Another issue is the fact that the Syrian refugees may be from different groups within Syria, which are currently at war. So, what happens when a family of Sunni Muslims who were targeted by Assad for living in a Muslim Brotherhood stronghold find themselves together with an Alawite family of Assad supporters who are fleeing from rebel groups like ISIS?

@2xx1xy1JD You have tackled two important things here. We indeed couldn´t tell the bad guys/criminals apart from the genuine war refugees by simply looking at them, they don´t have painted "I´m with ISIS" in their foreheads. That´s a problem which will prove high potential of danger for Europe and the USA in near future. Nobody has yet a plan on how to combat this threat, however ignoring it and downplaying it in the name of a false political correctness, as some people do here in Middle Europe, is definitely not going to solve it.

This summer in a austrian first-placement refugee camp, a person tried to recruit for ISIS - he was reported to the authorities by other refugees, who came here to GET AWAY from this crap.

The second one is the issue with some people bringing their conflicts over here. Why should the Alevite flee thousands of kilometers over here just to experience the same persecution yet again? Or the moderate Sunni, the Christian, the Yezide, the atheist Syrian? Or the gay Syrian?

@ad the videos:

I hate it if peolpe run around a make fantasy numbers about what welfare seekers get or asylum seekers, or people getting benefits from universal health care. And I hate it if people deliberately only show one side of a story to get a point/a opinion across:

I find it quite cheap that some media outlets think they have to fake images for the public and to withhold imformation from the public.

for example I am not okay with the popular hungarian-bashing going on at the moment!

I already knew the video of the asylum seekers throwing water bottles at the policemen, it was heavy discussed in Austria, regarding the accuse of hungarian policemen witholding food and water.

Another one was the now-famous photo of a young woman laying on railways while holding a baby and hungarian police man standing over her. The photo made it look like the policmen pushed her on the railways.

This is in fact not what happened, but another asylum seeker threw her to the ground and the police was wrestling him away and picking the mother up!

[Anny Nym]

Interesting thought.

Do you mind me asking what you could see far right parties in Europe wanting to do? I spent four years living in Germany, but lived under an American umbrella for the most part.

And it's not the right-wing parties who are maily responsible for this, but the PC-obsessed politicians who refuse to open their eyes.

Yup. That´s why HC Strache holds 30% in recent polls in Austria - almost as much as the two reigning parties (ÖVP- conservative pro EU neolibs and the SPÖ - that´s what´s left of a once great social-democratic party) together.

And that, dear children, that´s why there were 5000+ people at Strache´s first public speaking for the Vienna Mayor votes in October and only 150 tops including party members at the first public speaking of the Green Party (coalition partner of the Vienna government). The Vienna SPÖ is too ashamed to publish numbers I think.

On further news, we are sending up to 6000 asylum seekers in special trains to Germany today - just today! In addition to the, I don´t know, around 20.000! in the last four days alone!

What will happen if Mama Merkel closes the borders? And what will happen to all the people whose hopes will not be fulfilled?

That´s HC Strache:

https://www.facebook.com/HCStrache?fref=ts

[latraviata]

Interesting thought.

Do you mind me asking what you could see far right parties in Europe wanting to do? I spent four years living in Germany, but lived under an American umbrella for the most part.

The problem is, when a political party addresses the problems at hand, regarding the muslim minority, they will be exposed as far right immediately by the European predominantly left media.

The political correctness is our worst enemy and doesn't solve any problem whatsoever, in fact it makes it worse.

After a bomb attack or the Charlie Hebdo affair, shouting "It has nothing to do with islam" is rampant.

Germany, with the enormous quilt of the past on their shoulders can't afford to be strict, critical towards these problems. I really feel bad for the German people, Merkel's pc attitude will be the downfall of Germany.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I agree.

The problem is that still too many people and most politicians want to avoid a frank discussion about certain facts, they prefer to dismiss everyone who brings it up as nazi and horrible person. The people who suffer the most under this self-imposed ignorance are the many immigrants who try to assimilate and who really love their new country.

The major of Rotterdam said what should have been the official policy in all European countries for decades:

“It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom,†he said. “But if you do not like freedom, in Heaven’s name pack your bag and leave.â€

“There may be a place in the world where you can be yourself,†he continued. “Be honest with yourself and do not go and kill innocent journalists,†Aboutaleb, a Muslim himself, said.

“And if you do not like it here because humorists you do not like make a newspaper, may I then say you can fuck off.â€

“This is stupid, this so incomprehensible,†he also said. “Vanish from the Netherlands if you cannot find your place here.â€

(nltimes.nl/2015/01/08/muslims-dont-like-free-speech-can-fuck-off-rotterdam-mayor/)

I would extent that to all immigrants who refuse to accept our values and laws (like gender equality). I would kick them out faster than they can count to three. But of course, those who generally claim that they support gender equality and the rights of LGBT people and such are the first who will call you a bad nazi if you bring up things like that.

And by doing so, they are doing a huge disservice not only for the general population, but especially for the refugees who really need help and for other immigrants who will suffer most under the raising racism. And it's not the right-wing parties who are maily responsible for this, but the PC-obsessed politicians who refuse to open their eyes.

I had a thought, even though it might be utopian.

Clearly, these people aren't going away. They don't want to be in Syria right now. Individual countries may say "not here", but they will need to go SOMEWHERE.

What if we viewed these people as potentially being at a crossroad? Their current situation is bad. They are looking for help.

They can turn angry and bitter, after realizing that the world doesn't want them and doesn't care if they die. Once they have this feeling, it's hard to have any sort of moral persuasion in the future.

They can also develop strong feelings of loyalty and gratitude to anyone that does help them.

So, you have various possibilities. Picture 20 years from now, a scene where a Syrian family living in Germany says: We saw our homeland destroyed, saw death all around us. We know how terrible ethnic and religious strife can be. The political system didn't work, it was all corrupt and only about one group doing anything to stay in power. We see that it's peaceful here, that neighbors aren't killing each other, that the government can be trusted. We also see that different groups can get along. We are proud to be new Germans (or Dutch or Austrians...), we are grateful to this country for giving us a new life, and we will passionately support the values that make this sort of peaceful coexistence possible.

Picture another possible scene, also 20 years from now, where the family says: When we were desperate and running for our lives, the Europeans didn't care. They slammed the door in our faces. Our children's lives meant nothing to them. Only the Islamic group helped us. They saved our lives. Western values are a farce - we can only count on the Islamic group to help us, and they will have our loyalty forever.

ETA: I love this story: http://www.thestar.com/life/health_well ... efuge.html

My husband was treated in one of the hospital wings that has their name.

[Anny Nym]

So where is the family living in the second example?

[Sundaymorning]

The problem is, when a political party addresses the problems at hand, regarding the muslim minority, they will be exposed as far right immediately by the European predominantly left media.

The political correctness is our worst enemy and doesn't solve any problem whatsoever, in fact it makes it worse.

After a bomb attack or the Charlie Hebdo affair, shouting "It has nothing to do with islam" is rampant.

Germany, with the enormous quilt of the past on their shoulders can't afford to be strict, critical towards these problems. I really feel bad for the German people, Merkel's pc attitude will be the downfall of Germany.

You know, I sometimes catch myself thinking that the Nazis have won a bit after all. Because, they still keep Germany in their choke-hold by disabling the country to make sound decisions. Yes, the politicians can visit countless memorial services for the victims of the horrible crimes of the third reich.

But guess what? That doesn't help anybody if at the same time Jews can't walk around safely in Berlin. If a Muslim girl can't cut her hair short, come out as LGBT or convert to Buddhism (or any other religion) cause she has to be afraid that her own family will kill her. Or if a neo-Nazi gang is able to terrorize whole villages in Eastern Germany.

Government has one main job, and that is to keep up the internal and external security for everybody. But of course, it fails at that and rather interferes unnecessarily with the people's lives and liberties instead of making sure that they can actually live their life in peace and security. :angry-banghead:

[PregnantPornStar]

The problem is, when a political party addresses the problems at hand, regarding the muslim minority, they will be exposed as far right immediately by the European predominantly left media.

The political correctness is our worst enemy and doesn't solve any problem whatsoever, in fact it makes it worse.

After a bomb attack or the Charlie Hebdo affair, shouting "It has nothing to do with islam" is rampant.

Germany, with the enormous quilt of the past on their shoulders can't afford to be strict, critical towards these problems. I really feel bad for the German people, Merkel's pc attitude will be the downfall of Germany.

Okay, this is what I thought you were getting at. I couldn't agree more.

I keep feeling utterly sad for Germany. I loved living in Germany and hope (or maybe hoped) we could spend a few more years there. Merkel's willingness to allow Germany to fall is, while not terribly shocking, mind blowing to say the least.

The PC attitude and refusal to discuss that Islam has been an issue in the past and will continue to be so is incredibly frustrating. Heck, intel about ISIS was altered to make ISIS look weaker than it is. People should be absolutely outraged by this, yet it is generally not being talked about on MSM, unless it is FoxNews. :?

[latraviata]

I had a thought, even though it might be utopian.

Clearly, these people aren't going away. They don't want to be in Syria right now. Individual countries may say "not here", but they will need to go SOMEWHERE.

What if we viewed these people as potentially being at a crossroad? Their current situation is bad. They are looking for help.

They can turn angry and bitter, after realizing that the world doesn't want them and doesn't care if they die. Once they have this feeling, it's hard to have any sort of moral persuasion in the future.

They can also develop strong feelings of loyalty and gratitude to anyone that does help them.

So, you have various possibilities. Picture 20 years from now, a scene where a Syrian family living in Germany says: We saw our homeland destroyed, saw death all around us. We know how terrible ethnic and religious strife can be. The political system didn't work, it was all corrupt and only about one group doing anything to stay in power. We see that it's peaceful here, that neighbors aren't killing each other, that the government can be trusted. We also see that different groups can get along. We are proud to be new Germans (or Dutch or Austrians...), we are grateful to this country for giving us a new life, and we will passionately support the values that make this sort of peaceful coexistence possible.

Picture another possible scene, also 20 years from now, where the family says: When we were desperate and running for our lives, the Europeans didn't care. They slammed the door in our faces. Our children's lives meant nothing to them. Only the Islamic group helped us. They saved our lives. Western values are a farce - we can only count on the Islamic group to help us, and they will have our loyalty forever.

ETA: I love this story: http://www.thestar.com/life/health_well ... efuge.html

My husband was treated in one of the hospital wings that has their name.

It is a misunderstanding that we are talking Syrians only here. The entire m.e. is heading for Europe.

[PregnantPornStar]

So where is the family living in the second example?

I wondered this same thing when I read the above post.

It also should be noted that Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations are turning them away.

The idea of helping and hoping everything is better in 20 years is a nice idea, but is it realistic? Risking a nation's (or entire contitent) downfall is quite risky when everything is resting on hope.

[latraviata]

The migrants/refugees are predominantly young healthy men, heading to the countries with the most generous social security system. Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands to name a few.

[2xx1xy1JD]

So where is the family living in the second example?

Well, Islamic Relief is one organization that is operating in Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon.

You also have an extremely large group of refugees in Turkey. In Lebanon, 1 in 5 people is a Syrian refugee. These are countries with a history of having to negotiate a delicate balance between Islam and western values. Turkey went from imposed secularism in the days of Ataturk to seeing the public resurgence of Islam under Erdogan. Lebanon had a long and bloody civil war between its various religious groups, and the balance between the Muslim and Christian communities has shaped it since it was formed.

The refugees would be ripe for radicalization by any group that would offer them assistance and protection. (I'm not suggesting, btw, that Islamic Relief is a radical organization)

It's also possible that at least some of this group could make it to Europe.

[Sundaymorning]

I had a thought, even though it might be utopian.

Clearly, these people aren't going away. They don't want to be in Syria right now. Individual countries may say "not here", but they will need to go SOMEWHERE.

What if we viewed these people as potentially being at a crossroad? Their current situation is bad. They are looking for help.

They can turn angry and bitter, after realizing that the world doesn't want them and doesn't care if they die. Once they have this feeling, it's hard to have any sort of moral persuasion in the future.

They can also develop strong feelings of loyalty and gratitude to anyone that does help them.

So, you have various possibilities. Picture 20 years from now, a scene where a Syrian family living in Germany says: We saw our homeland destroyed, saw death all around us. We know how terrible ethnic and religious strife can be. The political system didn't work, it was all corrupt and only about one group doing anything to stay in power. We see that it's peaceful here, that neighbors aren't killing each other, that the government can be trusted. We also see that different groups can get along. We are proud to be new Germans (or Dutch or Austrians...), we are grateful to this country for giving us a new life, and we will passionately support the values that make this sort of peaceful coexistence possible.

Picture another possible scene, also 20 years from now, where the family says: When we were desperate and running for our lives, the Europeans didn't care. They slammed the door in our faces. Our children's lives meant nothing to them. Only the Islamic group helped us. They saved our lives. Western values are a farce - we can only count on the Islamic group to help us, and they will have our loyalty forever.

ETA: I love this story: http://www.thestar.com/life/health_well ... efuge.html

My husband was treated in one of the hospital wings that has their name.

That would of course be the ideal scenario. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely understand why people have to flee and yes, we should try to help those people.

My point is that most Western countries have failed to establish sane and sensible rules of who gets to stay and who has to leave again in the last decades. That has lead to huge problems.

I would be absolutely willing to give asylum to people if a. they really are from a war zone and b. if they are ready to accept and live our values and laws.

But at the same time, we should examine accurately where people are actually from and we have to be able to expulse those who don't want to accept our values and laws quickly and effectively.

[PregnantPornStar]

Well, Islamic Relief is one organization that is operating in Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon.

You also have an extremely large group of refugees in Turkey. In Lebanon, 1 in 5 people is a Syrian refugee. These are countries with a history of having to negotiate a delicate balance between Islam and western values. Turkey went from imposed secularism in the days of Ataturk to seeing the public resurgence of Islam under Erdogan. Lebanon had a long and bloody civil war between its various religious groups, and the balance between the Muslim and Christian communities has shaped it since it was formed.

The refugees would be ripe for radicalization by any group that would offer them assistance and protection. (I'm not suggesting, btw, that Islamic Relief is a radical organization)

It's also possible that at least some of this group could make it to Europe.

I believe Islamic Relief is (or was?) investigated because of possible links to terrorism....

[latraviata]

Well, Islamic Relief is one organization that is operating in Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon.

You also have an extremely large group of refugees in Turkey. In Lebanon, 1 in 5 people is a Syrian refugee. These are countries with a history of having to negotiate a delicate balance between Islam and western values. Turkey went from imposed secularism in the days of Ataturk to seeing the public resurgence of Islam under Erdogan. Lebanon had a long and bloody civil war between its various religious groups, and the balance between the Muslim and Christian communities has shaped it since it was formed.

The refugees would be ripe for radicalization by any group that would offer them assistance and protection. (I'm not suggesting, btw, that Islamic Relief is a radical organization)

It's also possible that at least some of this group could make it to Europe.

It is.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3792/ ... -terrorism

It came to the surface in the Netherlands too.