The European Refugee Crisis - MERGED

[DeFrauder]

No, the economic problem predates the refugees by a considerable margin. Truth be told, the Greek government has spent virtually nothing on the refugees, with the exception of the money involved in sea rescues. Partly because truth be told it has no money right now and homeless and hungry Greeks one spark away from rioting in the capital, partly because the refugees use Greece as an entry point into Europe, the goal being the richer countries like Germany, the UK, and the Netherlands.

Greece needs the financial help of the ultimate goal countries to process refugees. It is a country of 10 million in a Depression that has taken in a quarter of a million refugees this summer alone. But it also has a no account, good for nothing government that refuses to give this problem any attention at all.

I guess one can't squeeze blood from a stone. I imagine that the sea rescues cost a lot.

I do know that many Syrians would rather die than go into the camps. Once inside, they could be stuck there for the rest of their lives. There are so many refugees that there is almost no hope of legal immigration to somewhere. It is like winning the lottery.

[Arete]

Oh, I agree you cannot get blood from a stone. But you should be able to get leadership from a leader. No money? You get on the international nightly newscasts and you let the world know that a quarter of a million traumatized refugees are currently camping in your backyard and that you need food, water, and sanitation for them. In other words, you beg. If that means you have to say "please" and "thank you" to the countries who everyone knows should be at the ready to assist, that is what you are going to do. You are NOT going to sit and act as if this crisis is not going down on your watch in your yard. One step at a time. First you make sure no one dies of starvation or cholera. How miserable they may be at a future date in a camp situation is a problem that can be addressed another day.

It is pretty cold comfort to have to explain to the Syrians they really are just getting the same level of government douxhebaggery that Greek citizens also enjoy.

[enine]

And then, there are the problems that @laPapessaGiovanna mentioned in Italy. Organised crime earns good money from refugees and being so enmeshed in politics that they get all the contracts to build and provide housing for refugees. Like the traffickers, everyone is making money off of human suffering, or saving it by not helping.

I think this is the bigest problem. As of July there are approximately 200.000 new pleas for asylum alone in Germany. A lot of them (about 34.000) came from Syria. They are (mostly) granted asylum. But a lot come from Serbia, Albania or Kosovo (about 70.000), so called "safe countires". The problem is, that people from safe countries have NO chance on staying in Germany. They will be sent home as soon as their asylum plea is processed. That takes about 1.5 years (that's too long, obviously). When these people from safe countries come, they don't know they'll be sent home as soon as possible, because the traffickers make them believe Germany is paradise where everybody will get asylum and everyone will be allowed to work and help the family at home.

They acutally make fake facebook accounts of people posting that they now live a happy and rich life in Germany, send money home regularly and the whole family has now a better life, since the oldes son went to work in the EU. They get the hopes of these people up and then basically ruin their lifes when they live a year and a half in very shitty circumstances. Not being able to work, not being able to life a decent life, see your family, having to share a small room with 3 people you've never seen before etc. They do this just to make money. This trafficker thing is a huge business, they make millions.

So I guess a huge part to sort out the refugee crisis is to educate people about their chances of asylum and fight traffickers.

Obviously there would still be the people from Syria (who are slaughtered by IS) and other countires (who are slaughtered by Boko Haram) coming, but it would be fewer people and I guess the EU could handle them better.

(Just to make it clear: I know it's debatable if it's ok to send people home to a place where they will be awaited by poverty. I'm not sure what to think about it myself, but it's a difficult subject and I'd need a lot more space and time to explain my thoughts on that.)

And another thing: I'm also aware that it wouldn't make all the hate and hate crimes go away. That's another issue as well. It seems to me that there are just way to many stupid people without compassion all over the world and especially in East Germany.

[Anny Nym]

Late to the party, what a interesting thread. I could talk on and on about this topic, if time would allow.

Yesterday was a memorial service at the Stephansdom in Vienna for the 71 victims murdered by the human traffickers. It was very dignified and sad... actually alot of things happened yesterday in Austria regarding refugees: up to 20.000 people were in the streets for various reasons, beneath the memorial services at the Dom and alot of other places the most important reason being the arrival of almost 4000 mostly syrian refugees on the Vienna Westbahnhof railway station transfering from Hungary to Germany through Austria. Up to 2000 of them spent the night on the railway station in Vienna and Salzburg City waiting to catch a train to Munich. So many people came to the railway station to bring water and fruits and toys and to tell them which train they would have to catch to get to Germany, this was a very remarkable situation.

@samurai_sarah

Yes, we are very happy too that interior minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner and also our foreign affairs minister Sebastian Kurz (see his 5 point plan), found some words of reason and sense and are not just "sticking their heads in the sand" and are also setting pragmatic actions! To be honest, without them two, at the recent political chaos we would have probably early votings for a new councellor already...

The public opinion on them is a bit polarized though: Alot say, they are " too lax/ too soft". I am on the other(liberal) side however and think they do a not so bad job.

See solving the problem with the human trafficker scams in Kosovo in jan/feb 2015*.

http://www.salzburg24.at/volle-unterstu ... 1422457884

http://kurier.at/chronik/oesterreich/ac ... 21.413.107

From ~1000 per month in jan. und feb. down to just over 100 in march, downsizing to 35 in june.

And the current action against human traffickers in East and Upper Austria, where they freed on the first day three little children, toddlers, almost dead from severe dehydration.

I really appreciate her clear words against this scum, the traffickers.

(paraphrased: "Traffickers, you will not be safe in Austria, you will get caught and put behind bars immediatly!)

The 71 refugees from last week were most likely already dead as the lorry entered austrian grounds, so the trafficker DROVE AROUND WITH A TRUCK FULL OF CORPSES! Such people must be removed from society and put behind bars!

Nobody could imagine the fear they must have feeled when they realized they would die in this old chicken meat lorry!

As you mentioned, she strongly opts for legal, safe ways to Europe as part of the "Leben Retten"/"Save Lives" plan the austrian interior ministry mapped out.

In short: Save Havens/UNHRC camps on in North Africa and Asia as well as on the outer borders of the EU to proceed peoples claims for asylum. The ones approved for a stay in the EU then should be transferred to the EU and every EU country takes in a certain percentage estimaed by a EU wide quota.

So far, so good, so reasonable. The problem is, she isn´t saying exactly this since the tragedy in Burgenland with the 71 dead refugees, she´s saying exactly this since almost a good year - JUST NOBODY IN BRUSSELS FUCKING LISTENS!

So, yes, it´s the EU plutocrates fault indeed!

@enine

I really just can´t wrap my head around that problem with the West Balkan asylum claims Germany recently has and seems unable to solve.

This claims, which will be negative, are up to 40 percent of all claims made in D. Thas is a huge number and blocks the whole system. Not to mention that it creates false hope for a lot of people (which is kind of cruel) and a base for scammers (which is just straight out terrible).

Maybe you guys need to adapt the one or other strategy of a austrian politican.... just saying.

@laPapessaGiovanna

This is also a problem here, criminals infiltrating refugee camps. Just a few days a go, a undercover journalist exposed a black marked set up by criminals to get their hands on donations and selling them to the refugees in the camps!

This creates now some very problematic waves, I just had a discussion with the others of our local refugee-relief group, because alot of people sent emails or called to express their concern this way:

"Look, I just did read that article in the Standard about the black market, did you know of that (which we of course didn´t!) You know what I think I´ll stop bringing diapers and baby food etc. because what if the black market sellers get their hands on this? I don´t want to have anything to do with that!"

That is kind of a set -back...

*For non-middle-european FJers interested in this issue: (put under spoiler because looong explaination) :

The whole West Balkan is a war-free zone today and so people could come with work visa/student visa usw. but of course not claiming asylum in Austria. Well, they can, everybody has the right to do so but they are processed negative as there are no asylum reasons anymore. However by the end of 2014, authorities suddenly were confronted with a very sharp rise of asylum claims from West Balkan countries, namely the Kosovo, far above the usual "odd ones out", who just try their luck and get sent back home. So after some investigation, it appeared to be a big scam set up by gangsters, human traffickers, to scam people out of their money or make them endebting their lives to this mafia.

They told them "We could bring you to Austria- it´s the land of milk and honey, they have so much work for everyone, they will give you a welcome bonus of 6000 euro and a house for free- the only thing you have to do is to apply for asylum! Just for a ohsoverysmall fee we bring you and your family there!" ...

Which is of course complete bullshit.

In the end we had up to 3000-4000 people from the Kosovo here, who now were about to find out that the "only" thing they would get here is a cot in a asylum camp, 3 canteen meals a day and a bus or plane ride back to their respective home cities after a couple of weeks.

Many gave their houses or all their savings to the human traffickers to find themselves in Traiskirchen. and believe me, nobody wants to end up in Traiskirchen voluntary.

However the interior minister solved this by meeting up with a very distraught kosovarian president(because his country is struggling already with high poverty levels and crime rates)

and worked out a large media campaign to inform the people to NOT fall for the criminals, to NOT giving them their savings and forgodssake to NOT endebting themselves to gangsters, because they would most likely want their money back the one or other way!

(photo of Mikl-Leitner at a press conference in Kosovo with austrian information ads in kosovarian newspapers)

http://images03.kurier.at/121419009-46- ... 21.419.010

It was very successful.

[prayawaythefundie]

@enine

I really just can´t wrap my head around that problem with the West Balkan asylum claims Germany recently has and seems unable to solve.

This claims, which will be negative, are up to 40 percent of all claims made in D. Thas is a huge number and blocks the whole system. Not to mention that it creates false hope for a lot of people (which is kind of cruel) and a base for scammers (which is just straight out terrible).

You are right, that is such a big problem here. It takes way to long to check whether someone can legitimately claim asylum or not. Letting people from safe but poor Balkan states stay that long not only creates false hope for them, it also takes up resources that are very much needed for refugees from war-torn countries. The refugee crisis is all over television tonight and I just learned that Switzerland, for example, has a very efficient system for determining whether there is even a chance for a person to stay under the current rules for asylum. It seems to take only a few days to weeks there. Why can't we adopt a similar system? We very much need it.

I'm frustrated about our slow system when it come to asylum claims and I'm very angry about some people attacking refugee shelters. However, today I'm also proud of my city. I live in Munich. More than 1500 refugees seem to have arrived here at the main station since last night. Police asked for emergency donations and they got them. People brought water, food, toys etc.. They actually donated so much that police said it was more than enough for now this afternoon ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 81522.html ). I have also heard about people donating in Vienna. That's the kind of Europe I want to be part of.

[Arete]

I don't understand why processing "no" from safe countries takes so long. If you are Albanian, Serbian, Kosovar, you are not entitled, the end. Why does it take over a year to do this? I think I must have missed something in Anny Nym's post, but I would think those would be the easiest claims to clear off the docket.

Thanks for all the background info you provided, Anny Nym.

[prayawaythefundie]

If you are Albanian, Serbian, Kosovar, you are not entitled, the end.

This is just a guess since I don't have any inside knowledge: By now everyone knows the chances for asylum being granted to Albanians, Serbians and Kosovars are very slim and this might make people get rid of any evidence that they are. If you have no passport with you (general you), it's a lot harder to find out whether your country of origin is a safe one or not. It is possible but it takes time. I'm pretty sure there are facilitators of entry along the Balkan route who would advise their "clients" (more like victims lately) to do this.

That being said, I still think the system could be more efficient.

[Arete]

You can dump a passport, but you aren't suddenly going to sprout the ability to speak Arabic. Language alone is going to be your biggest "Tell".

[prayawaythefundie]

You can dump a passport, but you aren't suddenly going to sprout the ability to speak Arabic. Language alone is going to be your biggest "Tell".

True but you don't have to be from an arabic country to successfully claim asylum in Germany. As long as they can't positively be determined as people from a specific nation that is considered safe, they can't be sent back. And yes, people sometimes do pretend to not understand their first language when that could be bad for them. Btw, you can't send people back when you don't know where "back" is. "Not Syria because person does not speak arabic" is not a very clear direction.

Edited because I still don't know if it's arab, arabic or arabian???

[Arete]

I am ashamed to be human today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/migrant-chil ... 54090.html :(

[Grimalkin]

I am ashamed to be human today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/migrant-chil ... 54090.html :(

This is getting a lot of coverage in the states as well. :cry:

Some thoughts and questions:

These people fleeing their homeland, are not many of them people with skills and or educations? I think a person who risks everything just for the chance of a better life could be worth hiring and giving opportunities to. I am piggybacking off of the idea of reframing how we look at these people.

[Irishy]

I am ashamed to be human today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/migrant-chil ... 54090.html :(

Ireland had originally pledged to take 600. This has been increased today to an unspecified amount. It's still not enough. History will judge us mercilessly. I am just devastated by this picture.

[freejingerbeth]

After reading this thread, and reading about China's "parade," I can't help but worry that we've got some similar world scenarios, that lead to WWII. China=Japan's militarization, ISIS=Hitler's Regime, Greece= Political Unrest And Fall Of The Weimar Republic, DueTo Treaty of Versailles (i.e. unable to pay back money, and people out of work and hungry). Add to that Putin, Iran, and the fact that other countries, including The U.S., are still coming out of a major recession, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Weird, and scary. :( :( :(

Edited for clarity. Hope I didn't bore everyone to death.

[HighlandCow]

I read an article in the NewStatesmen that I thought was really on point:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ng-fascism

As to the WW3 suggestion, I have a Polish friend who is convinced it is going to happen. She reads a lot of Russian news and says their behavior is worrying.

[2xx1xy1JD]

jaelh wrote:

I do think that offering temporary protection rights only is going to be important. No expectation of lifetime settlement or citizenship. At least in the short term. Maybe only if you can't return for 10 years or something like that? Only sweetener I can envision for anyone, at this point.

My concern is that you set up a refugee sub-class with this proposal.

What do refugees do with temporary protection rights? Can they work? Will any children born receive citizenship? Are they able to rebuild their lives, or are they essentially in limbo for at least 10 years?

From my POV, the best thing for refugees is to allow them to have a hearing, get their status and move on with their lives in a new country. That means getting citizenship, jobs, building families, establishing homes and participating in society in their new country.

Without that ability, people can't move on, can't heal, can't get past the original conflict. It seems like a perfect recipe for creating a radical underclass.

[Anny Nym]

You are forgetting about something extremly important, 2xx1xy1JD.

That most refugees are forcefully displaced (obviously...) and actually do want to get back to their homeland some day in the near or distant future. Which is a natural and completely understandable urge imho.

Heimat(homeland) is extremly important for me and I have yet to meet a displaced person, a refugee - I have met one or two in my life- who doesn´t love his/her homeland just as much and is very traumatized by having to met the mere prospect of never being able to see it again!

And also, why should "we" (the international community) allow that? Why we should let the initators of the displacement of hundred of thousands of people in the Near East have their way and win?

If we would communicate to the displaced that there would not be a chance to see their homeland again and to succumb to this prospect, that may be oh-so-convenient to the ones causing their victims to have to leave, but just terrible for the refugees!

A part of my family was also displaced and did have to endure horrible things too on their escape - they always wanted to return, but of course couldn´t. Even as old people, when my siblings, my cousins and I were children, they talked about this homeland to us.

So why a syrian refugee (or any other) should feel any different?

We ned to set actions to STOP the displacement and allow a safe return!

[sawasdee]

I read an article in the NewStatesmen that I thought was really on point:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ng-fascism.

As to the WW3 suggestion, I have a Polish friend who is convinced it is going to happen. She reads a lot of Russian news and says their behavior is worrying.

I am not good at IT - I just tried to approve that article and couldn't work out how. But thank you for linking to such a cogent analysis of the present situation, and absent any trace of racism and nationalism. The comparison with the 1930s scared me. Again, thank you for a sensible and sober contribution to this thread.

[2xx1xy1JD]

You are forgetting about something extremly important, 2xx1xy1JD.

That most refugees are forcefully displaced (obviously...) and actually do want to get back to their homeland some day in the near or distant future. Which is a natural and completely understandable urge imho.

Heimat(homeland) is extremly important for me and I have yet to meet a displaced person, a refugee - I have met one or two in my life- who doesn´t love his/her homeland just as much and is very traumatized by having to met the mere prospect of never being able to see it again!

And also, why should "we" (the international community) allow that? Why we should let the initators of the displacement of hundred of thousands of people in the Near East have their way and win?

If we would communicate to the displaced that there would not be a chance to see their homeland again and to succumb to this prospect, that may be oh-so-convenient to the ones causing their victims to have to leave, but just terrible for the refugees!

A part of my family was also displaced and did have to endure horrible things too on their escape - they always wanted to return, but of course couldn´t. Even as old people, when my siblings, my cousins and I were children, they talked about this homeland to us.

So why a syrian refugee (or any other) should feel any different?

We ned to set actions to STOP the displacement and allow a safe return!

Granting refugees permanent citizenship or not does absolutely nothing to affect whether or not they will be able to return to their country of origin in the future. Nobody can predict when or if the situation will resolve.

Obviously, a peaceful resolution in Syria is the ideal solution, especially since so many thousands are dying and won't be able to get to a place where they can safely claim refugee status. I don't have any easy answers for how we get there, though. Assad is a monster who doesn't hesitate to kill those whom he sees as a potential threat, even if it means using chemical weapons on civilians. OTOH, the main groups fighting against him, such as ISIS, are also monsters.

Maybe my perspective as a Canadian is a bit different. My great-grandparents came to Canada as refugees. My husband's parents were refugees. Most people I know, in fact, ended up here because their families were refugees.

I can understand some sentimental feelings. My husband's grandmother missed her old life in Iraq, his uncle would tune in to Iraqi radio and at some point managed to get some correspondence going with an old friend there via England. Their lives, though, weren't put on hold while they waited for a day that would never come. They built homes and families and businesses, raised children and became part of new countries. Our lives are not "terrible". In fact, they are often far better than the lives of those that pushed us out. My kids are being raised in a country that is free and safe, where they have full rights as equal citizens. That's pretty awesome.

[sawasdee]

As an individual, I feel very helpless against the 'Daily Mail' mindset I meet so often, and have difficulty marshalling arguments against - I am not good at being the centre of attention. Can anyone give me a couple of good arguments to use?

[Anny Nym]

Maybe our perspectives are different, yes.

And moving on with life does not exclude to keep up your roots and vice versa. My relatives didn´t stay put on the railway station either... It´s about carrying on the flame, not keeping the ashes. This is far above "sentimentality".

When being granted asylum status, refugees could of course work, buy property, open a business, study, etc. We just need to keep focused on the fact, that our work is not done with this.

Indeed there is no easy answer to how to deal with this, but we must not shut the door for the displaced/ refugees to return to their homelands one day.

(edited for grammar)

[Anny Nym]

As an individual, I feel very helpless against the 'Daily Mail' mindset I meet so often, and have difficulty marshalling arguments against - I am not good at being the centre of attention. Can anyone give me a couple of good arguments to use?

What is the Daily Mail - mindset?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Maybe your perspectives are different, yes.

And moving on with life does not exclude to keep up your roots and vice versa. My relatives didn´t either stay put on the railway station ... It´s about carrying on the flame, not keeping the ashes. This is far above "sentimentality".

When being granted asylum status, refugees could of course work, buy property, open businesses study, etc. We just need to keep focused on the fact, that work is not done with this.

Indeed there is no easy answer to how to deal with this, but we must not need to shut the door for the displaced/ refugees to return to their homelands one day.

How does granting a refugee citizenship prevent them from dreaming of a return to their country of origin, or actually returning there if conditions were to allow it in the future? There's also more to maintaining roots than physically returning to the country. I know many communities where there are strong communal ties, but also a recognition that no true return home would be possible - the original community is no longer in that country, and the political situation is unlikely to change.

jaelh's suggestion was a temporary asylum, allowing up to 10 years to see if a return was possible. That would mean that true settlement for the refugees would be virtually impossible. Would you invest in a business, knowing that you only had temporary papers to stay in the country? Would any bank lend you money to do so? Would you buy a home, knowing that you didn't have permission to live in it long term? Would you make sure that your kids learned a new language in your country, if you thought that you might need to return at any time? Would an employer hire you for a good job and take the time to train you, knowing that you didn't have permanent status? Would you start university classes, knowing that you might not have permission to stay in the country long enough to complete your degree?

[sawasdee]

What is the Daily Mail - mindset?

The Daily Mail is a British newspaper that makes no distinction between refugees and migrants, and believes all are out to exploit the British welfare state. According to them, there are families who were immediately given 6 bedroom houses, a people carrier car and LOADS OF MONEY! While British families languished in the queue. Very difficult to disprove, and quoted ad infinitum. Leads to a very anti foreigner mindset in the UK, which has actually taken 1% as many people as Germany!( But the Daily Mail will tell you the UK is being overrun....)

[Anny Nym]

How does granting a refugee citizenship prevent them from dreaming of a return to their country of origin, or actually returning there if conditions were to allow it in the future? There's also more to maintaining roots than physically returning to the country. I know many communities where there are strong communal ties, but also a recognition that no true return home would be possible - the original community is no longer in that country, and the political situation is unlikely to change.

jaelh's suggestion was a temporary asylum, allowing up to 10 years to see if a return was possible. That would mean that true settlement for the refugees would be virtually impossible. Would you invest in a business, knowing that you only had temporary papers to stay in the country? Would any bank lend you money to do so? Would you buy a home, knowing that you didn't have permission to live in it long term? Would you make sure that your kids learned a new language in your country, if you thought that you might need to return at any time? Would an employer hire you for a good job and take the time to train you, knowing that you didn't have permanent status? Would you start university classes, knowing that you might not have permission to stay in the country long enough to complete your degree?

Asylum status and citizenship granting must work very different in Canada.

No, it would not mean true settlement to be impossible. I of course could only speak for my country, but we actually had exactly this case as jaelh suggested in the 1990s with bosnian refugees. This refugee group was granted a uncomplicated and fast -processed temporary asylum. Circa half of them opted to stay in Austria long term, the other half went back.

In October this process might be enabled again here for syrian refugees.

Most of your questions could be frankly answered with yes, as the built up on each other: People who work here could stay on a work visa anyway, dito with students. There is even a scholarship program for refugees at austrian universities. If you want to get a loan for a house or a business, you need to have assets (either cash or a job) anyway - see above.

As for the language, all children - including not-yet-processed asylum claimers - go to school here and will attend special set-up german language classes at their respective schools anyway. So the state makes sure they learn it, no matter what.

Being granted temporary asylum doesn´t necessarily mean you would be kicked out at any time. It means fast relief.

Being granted citizenship on the other hand takes a minimum of 10 years permanent residency in Austria and as by law we don´t have double-citizenships, it would be necessary that this person revokes his/her original citizenship which would most likely prevend a proper return to their home-country.

[Anny Nym]

The Daily Mail is a British newspaper that makes no distinction between refugees and migrants, and believes all are out to exploit the British welfare state. According to them, there are families who were immediately given 6 bedroom houses, a people carrier car and LOADS OF MONEY! While British families languished in the queue. Very difficult to disprove, and quoted ad infinitum. Leads to a very anti foreigner mindset in the UK, which has actually taken 1% as many people as Germany!( But the Daily Mail will tell you the UK is being overrun....)

Ah, I see!

A good thing to start is maybe with mapping out what benefits refugees (claimers and positively processed ones) really get in the UK. There are probably alot of fantasy numbers floating around.