The European Refugee Crisis - MERGED

[devoe364]

Chiming in with a left-wing Canadian viewpoint here:

Canada has pledged to take in 10,000 Syrian refugees. Currently there are only 9 families (one is very large - 13 people) on the approved refugee list for sponsorship. As a result, I do not believe our government is doing enough. I understand the importance of screening - we have our share of Isis supporters here in Canada and I know that we don't want anymore, however the Harper government is dragging its heels (is it October 19th yet? #HeaveSteve2015)

Most refugees in Canada do not end up on welfare or in continious state of dependence on Social Assistance. Many refugees to Canada who have lived in Saskatchewan for decades (ie. refugees from the Hungarian civil war after WWII) are coming out to support Canada taking more refugees.

Any religious extremism is dangerous. We see plenty of examples of it here on the boards. I worry however about the rapant anti-Islam sentiment that I see. I believe in religious freedom. Its an important tennent of what makes Canada Canada in my eyes. Our government is currently trying to restrict religious freedoms as much as possible - to all those who aren't white Christians.

I welcome refugees and immigrants from wherever they come from. If they plan to come to Canada, send their kids to school here, learn as much English or French as they can (I mean I don't expect them to come here fluent or for older immigrants to become fluent in their lifetimes), work and pay taxes here so they have a better life for their families - I'm all for it.

My ancestors were economic migrants from Ireland. People complained about the Irish back then too. NINA signs if no one remembers. Most of us in NA are descendants of immigrants. Many of us had ancestors who faced some time of discrimination during that time. Maybe instead of being so judgemental, we need to look back at what our ancestors faced and be more welcoming.

More than that, but for the Grace of God go we - I could be that Mom with a toddler desperate to get them out of a refugee camp so they have access to a better education and future.

Try to put yourselves in the shoes of someone else before you decide to believe everything you read on right or left wing media.

[karen77]

I have an online friend that is living in Hungary (She's from the US). she's been going to the train stations every day and helping refugees, food, train tix, etc, she had to stop yesterday because of fear of being arrested. I wish I could help like she is, this stuff breaks my heart.

[Clementine]

More than that, but for the Grace of God go we - I could be that Mom with a toddler desperate to get them out of a refugee camp so they have access to a better education and future.

Try to put yourselves in the shoes of someone else before you decide to believe everything you read on right or left wing media.

One of the problems with the European way of taking in asylum seekers is that women and children don't have what it takes to make the long, dangerous and difficult journey across Europe and end up left behind. 72% of the boat immigrants are men, 13% are women and 15% children.

Source: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

In order for a person to flee to Europe they will need to have the money to pay people smugglers thousands of dollars or Euros. The median income in Syria before the war was about $300 per month so the cost of going to Europe is a years salary or several years salary. That leaves out the majority of the population who can't come up with the money.

Secondly, there are no safe passages to Europe. Refugees have to pay criminal traffickers with no scruples to get here. That also means taking the risk of dying at sea or in a lorry. The people who aren't willing to risk that can't come here.

Refugees also need to be fit to go to Europe, since it's a long journey that may involve swimming to shore, walking across countries or being smuggled in vehicles without the possibility to eat, drink or go to the bathroom.

Children, old people, people with disabilities or ilnesses have no chance of getting here.

So while I agree that Europe should help refugees, I can't condone a policy that leaves everybody but the wealthy and healthy behind. I also think it's very cynical to make them take on dangerous journeys. It's like "Welcome to Europe, you survived the Hunger Games, now you are allowed to apply for asylum".

The only decent way of doing it is to let the UN pick out people who are in most need of asylum (families, sick people, people who are persecuted because of their background or political refugees) and send them here on a safe plane.

I can't believe that there is no debate about it in Europe. Everybody is just thrilled that so many come here, nobody cares about all the people that are left behind.

I also think that it's important to say that not everybody who seeks asylum are from Syria. About half the refugees that come here are from Syria. The rest are from the Balkans (safe countries, but they still come and are taking up a lot of resources that could be used better), Africa, other countries in the Middle East, the former USSR, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Not necessarily refugees, just people who want a better life. Something that I feel great respect for but it's not the same thing as fleeing from a war.

[Clementine]

That's what I was thinking. Lately polls have been quite a fraud. During the last Italian election campaign polls predicted a victory of the centre-left coalition with some margin too. Listening to people chatting around in bars,I (that admittedly know little about statistics) could say that it wasn't going to happen. In fact it didn't happen. So I was asking how she feels the atmosphere is, since if the 25% figure itssomething near reality you should feel it among population.

ETA I was asking because here happened somewhat the same with a party (radical ideas, anti EU, albeit a lot more left wing than SD) called Movimento5Stelle that from nothing (5% in the previous elections) arose to be the first Italian party with nearly 30% in the last italian elections to decrease to a more modest 15-20% in the last administrative (not general) elections. And I felt it was a similar pattern.

Late reply, but still. The Swedish Democrats got 12,86% of the votes to parliament in the last election in September 2014.

They got 9,7% of the votes in the election for the European Parliament and won two seats. They are anti-EU and are members of the group "Alliance for Direct Democracy in Europe", together with UKIP and other parties.

The Swedish Democrats are getting between 19.5% and 27.3% in the polls for September and are very close to the two other big parties, The Social Democrats and the Conservatives. The poll institute that historically has been best at giving the accurate numbers is Norwegian Sentio and SD got 26.5% in the latest poll, making it the biggest party.

From what I hear, read and what peple discuss, I would find it likely that SD would get around 20% of the votes if there was an election today. They got 13% a year ago and the winds seems to be blowing their way.

[devoe364]

Clementine - I agree that the system for getting refugees relocated is broken. I dislike the idea that people have to make a dangerous and expensive trip. I would far rather that the UN should pick out people in need of asylum and also try to match them with a country that they would "fit" in best - to me that means if you have a family of 5 with siblings in country A, then they go to country A.

I know there are asylum seekers from various countries. I too have a great respect for those who want a better life, however I do believe that they should go through the proper legal channels to immigrate.

[Clementine]

Clementine - I agree that the system for getting refugees relocated is broken. I dislike the idea that people have to make a dangerous and expensive trip. I would far rather that the UN should pick out people in need of asylum and also try to match them with a country that they would "fit" in best - to me that means if you have a family of 5 with siblings in country A, then they go to country A.

I know there are asylum seekers from various countries. I too have a great respect for those who want a better life, however I do believe that they should go through the proper legal channels to immigrate.

I agree. Another problem for the European countries is that they give refugees so different conditions. Germany and Sweden has the most generous conditions for refugees, and are the only two countries that gives Syrian refugees permanent residence, so the majority of the asylum seekers want to come here. It creates a very unbalanced situation for the countries in the EU when two countries, one of them with about 2% of the population in EU, take in the largest numbers.

I also think that the Arab countries should take in more refugees. Saudi-Arabia and the countries in the gulf states haven't taken in any refugees at all. It's not like they don't have the money or space. Saudi-Arabia also has something like 3M hotel rooms and tent accomodations that are empty, just waiting for the muslims who go to Mecka to do their pilgrimage once a year.

It would be a great relief if 3M refugees could find shelter there. They belong to the same religion, many speak the same language and they obvoiously have the infrastructure to accomodate them, unlike countries in Europe who have housing crisis.

[2xx1xy1JD]

One of the problems with the European way of taking in asylum seekers is that women and children don't have what it takes to make the long, dangerous and difficult journey across Europe and end up left behind. 72% of the boat immigrants are men, 13% are women and 15% children.

Source: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

In order for a person to flee to Europe they will need to have the money to pay people smugglers thousands of dollars or Euros. The median income in Syria before the war was about $300 per month so the cost of going to Europe is a years salary or several years salary. That leaves out the majority of the population who can't come up with the money.

Secondly, there are no safe passages to Europe. Refugees have to pay criminal traffickers with no scruples to get here. That also means taking the risk of dying at sea or in a lorry. The people who aren't willing to risk that can't come here.

Refugees also need to be fit to go to Europe, since it's a long journey that may involve swimming to shore, walking across countries or being smuggled in vehicles without the possibility to eat, drink or go to the bathroom.

Children, old people, people with disabilities or ilnesses have no chance of getting here.

So while I agree that Europe should help refugees, I can't condone a policy that leaves everybody but the wealthy and healthy behind. I also think it's very cynical to make them take on dangerous journeys. It's like "Welcome to Europe, you survived the Hunger Games, now you are allowed to apply for asylum".

The only decent way of doing it is to let the UN pick out people who are in most need of asylum (families, sick people, people who are persecuted because of their background or political refugees) and send them here on a safe plane.

I can't believe that there is no debate about it in Europe. Everybody is just thrilled that so many come here, nobody cares about all the people that are left behind.

I also think that it's important to say that not everybody who seeks asylum are from Syria. About half the refugees that come here are from Syria. The rest are from the Balkans (safe countries, but they still come and are taking up a lot of resources that could be used better), Africa, other countries in the Middle East, the former USSR, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Not necessarily refugees, just people who want a better life. Something that I feel great respect for but it's not the same thing as fleeing from a war.

Yes, the means of getting people out needs to be drastically improved. I was just reading an article on the death of Alan Kurdi (the drowned little boy on the beach). The fact that so many migrants are young men doesn't mean that they aren't real refugees - it means that the conditions are so onerous that only those who are best equipped can do it. The Kurdi family was in genuine danger - members of the extended family had been killed in the Kobani area by ISIS. They weren't all equally capable of fleeing. One brother managed to get to Germany by boat to Greece, and then largely by walking, but he had to leave his pregnant wife and children behind and hoped he'd be able to bring them after. Abdullah didn't want to be separated from his family, so they left together - and his wife and young boys drowned.

I also didn't realize until I read the article just how badly Turkey was handling things. Apparently, while Turkey will grant refugees from other countries status, there is a separate law for the Syrian refugees that enables them to physically escape, but doesn't allow them to register with the UN as refugees or grant them any status. Kurds are especially vulnerable to discrimination. Lack of documentation then means that it's harder for them to get into other countries. The older sister of Abdullah Kurdi had tried to sponsor his brother, but the Canadian immigration officials needed official documents that didn't exist.

[devoe364]

Honestly? I think that all UN countries should determine what supports they are required to provide to refugees. That way, the playing field might be more level. Canada is also a favoured destination for assylum seekers for the same reasons, and many immigrants to Canada come to Saskatchewan (where I am from) because it is easier to get permenant residency here than it is in other provinces.

[Clementine]

Yes, the means of getting people out needs to be drastically improved. I was just reading an article on the death of Alan Kurdi (the drowned little boy on the beach). The fact that so many migrants are young men doesn't mean that they aren't real refugees - it means that the conditions are so onerous that only those who are best equipped can do it. The Kurdi family was in genuine danger - members of the extended family had been killed in the Kobani area by ISIS. They weren't all equally capable of fleeing. One brother managed to get to Germany by boat to Greece, and then largely by walking, but he had to leave his pregnant wife and children behind and hoped he'd be able to bring them after. Abdullah didn't want to be separated from his family, so they left together - and his wife and young boys drowned.

I also didn't realize until I read the article just how badly Turkey was handling things. Apparently, while Turkey will grant refugees from other countries status, there is a separate law for the Syrian refugees that enables them to physically escape, but doesn't allow them to register with the UN as refugees or grant them any status. Kurds are especially vulnerable to discrimination. Lack of documentation then means that it's harder for them to get into other countries. The older sister of Abdullah Kurdi had tried to sponsor his brother, but the Canadian immigration officials needed official documents that didn't exist.

Yes, but Alan Kurdis family had been living and working in Turkey for several years. It wasn't until the father became unemployed and couldn't supprt the family that he decided to flee.

A lot of the refugees are in the same situation: they have been safe in neighbouring countries for years, but when they run out of money they see no other option but to flee. It really shows that more money should be spent helping the refugees who are living in the ME so they can continue to stay in the neighbouring countries since that's what a lot of them want to.

60% said they had previously spent time in Turkey (31% had no reply to

this question), often in hotels and hostels. Two thirds of those questioned

said they had received no assistance there, and the majority had left

because of unemployment, and a lack of financial assistance.

From the "PRELIMINARY FINDINGS OF 2015 SURVEY

OF SYRIAN REFUGEES IN GREECE"

http://www.unhcr.org/5592bd059.pdf

There are also reports that Alan Kurdi's father was the smuggler who steered the boat that sank. Another family who lost two children in the sea, plus another woman who was on board claim that Mr Kurdi was part of the smuggling ring. It's difficult to know what happened, but there are conflicting reports about what happened.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yes, but Alan Kurdis family had been living and working in Turkey for several years. It wasn't until the father became unemployed and couldn't supprt the family that he decided to flee.

A lot of the refugees are in the same situation: they have been safe in neighbouring countries for years, but when they run out of money they see no other option but to flee. It really shows that more money should be spent helping the refugees who are living in the ME so they can continue to stay in the neighbouring countries since that's what a lot of them want to.

From the "PRELIMINARY FINDINGS OF 2015 SURVEY

OF SYRIAN REFUGEES IN GREECE"

http://www.unhcr.org/5592bd059.pdf

There are also reports that Alan Kurdi's father was the smuggler who steered the boat that sank. Another family who lost two children in the sea, plus another woman who was on board claim that Mr Kurdi was part of the smuggling ring. It's difficult to know what happened, but there are conflicting reports about what happened.

They are Kurdish Syrians. In 2011 The syrian government made all Kurds stateless. Turkey was one of the only countries who welcomed refugees at that time. They were stateless, therefore passport- less unable to obtain residency or exit visas from Turkey because they lack passports and unable to win asylum elsewhere because they lacked exit visas.

That much is fact. Depending on which media you prefer or read he had a great life in Turkey and is to blame for what happened to his family and may even had a hand in it as you intimated above. Or like the other millions of refugees it might just not be a barrel of laughs fleeing from a war torn country. However you do it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

See my rants on the previous pages about why it's important to give refugees not just a place where nobody is actively killing them, but a means of getting proper status and documentation, the ability to work, and a way to plan for the future.

Turkey has been simply a place where refugees could flee and not be killed. That's all. Syrians can't claim official refugee status in Turkey, so they are in legal limbo. The camps are completely inadequate, serving only 220,000 of the almost 2 million Syrians. It's too dangerous to return to Syria. Only 15% of Syrians outside of the camps receive humanitarian aid. The rest survive by trying to work any way that they can. They work under the table, or try to start unregistered businesses, and the locals resent the competition. They are still bona fide refugees - allowing someone the theoretical right to stay in Turkey while making it impossible for them to actually feed themselves or improve their circumstances is not a solution. Kurds face an extra dose of discrimination, as OKTBT noted, and Turkey wasn't helping with the documents so that they could improve their lives elsewhere. Kurdi had a sister who was anxious to bring family members over and who had the ability to employ them.

BTW - is anyone talking about finally giving the Kurds their own state? If there was ever a group that needed and deserved it, it's them.

[Clementine]

See my rants on the previous pages about why it's important to give refugees not just a place where nobody is actively killing them, but a means of getting proper status and documentation, the ability to work, and a way to plan for the future.

Turkey has been simply a place where refugees could flee and not be killed. That's all. Syrians can't claim official refugee status in Turkey, so they are in legal limbo. The camps are completely inadequate, serving only 220,000 of the almost 2 million Syrians. It's too dangerous to return to Syria. Only 15% of Syrians outside of the camps receive humanitarian aid. The rest survive by trying to work any way that they can. They work under the table, or try to start unregistered businesses, and the locals resent the competition. They are still bona fide refugees - allowing someone the theoretical right to stay in Turkey while making it impossible for them to actually feed themselves or improve their circumstances is not a solution. Kurds face an extra dose of discrimination, as OKTBT noted, and Turkey wasn't helping with the documents so that they could improve their lives elsewhere. Kurdi had a sister who was anxious to bring family members over and who had the ability to employ them.

BTW - is anyone talking about finally giving the Kurds their own state? If there was ever a group that needed and deserved it, it's them.

I absolutely think that Turkey should be pressured to treat the refugees better and grant them refugee status. They are members of NATO and wants to become a EU country - there should be more efforts made to pressure them. Same with Lebanon and Jordan. Why should Europe take in so many refugees when the arab world gets a pass? Yes, they house a lot of refugees but grant them nothing.

Nobody is talking about giving the kurds their own state afaik. Turkey is actually becoming more hostile towards the kurds after the HDP got 13% of the votes. Turkish nationalists ans Kurds are clashing in Europe too.

There has been talks about the UN setting up a protected area in northern Iraq, run by Kurds, where ethnic minorities (Kurds, Yazidis, Assyrians etc) can find shelter. I don't think they have agreed to anything and considering the oil in northern Iraq, the government is not likely to let it go.

[OkToBeTakei]

I absolutely think that Turkey should be pressured to treat the refugees better and grant them refugee status. They are members of NATO and wants to become a EU country - there should be more efforts made to pressure them. Same with Lebanon and Jordan. Why should Europe take in so many refugees when the arab world gets a pass? Yes, they house a lot of refugees but grant them nothing.

Nobody is talking about giving the kurds their own state afaik. Turkey is actually becoming more hostile towards the kurds after the HDP got 13% of the votes. Turkish nationalists ans Kurds are clashing in Europe too.

There has been talks about the UN setting up a protected area in northern Iraq, run by Kurds, where ethnic minorities (Kurds, Yazidis, Assyrians etc) can find shelter. I don't think they have agreed to anything and considering the oil in northern Iraq, the government is not likely to let it go.

Saudi Arabia and other gulf nations with the exception of Jordan and Lebanon have not signed the UN convention on Refugees (I think this has already been mentioned on a previous page.)

Again depending on your preferred reading or wish to believe Saudi Arabia statements they have accepted upward of 800,000 new 'citizens ' in the past year. They have financially supported both Jordan and Lebanon whilst also aiding with financial humanitarian aid.

Whilst it seems hardline to me their stance, in essence whilst you are condemning them you are seeking precisely the same. From your posts it would appear you would be quite happy to support the 'refugees' just not in your country.

I'm going to pretend I did not read the part where it would be great if they went to a country where they all speak the same language and are the same religion as I'm sure you did not intend that to sound so .......off.

[nausicaa]

See my rants on the previous pages about why it's important to give refugees not just a place where nobody is actively killing them, but a means of getting proper status and documentation, the ability to work, and a way to plan for the future.

Turkey has been simply a place where refugees could flee and not be killed. That's all. Syrians can't claim official refugee status in Turkey, so they are in legal limbo. The camps are completely inadequate, serving only 220,000 of the almost 2 million Syrians. It's too dangerous to return to Syria. Only 15% of Syrians outside of the camps receive humanitarian aid. The rest survive by trying to work any way that they can. They work under the table, or try to start unregistered businesses, and the locals resent the competition. They are still bona fide refugees - allowing someone the theoretical right to stay in Turkey while making it impossible for them to actually feed themselves or improve their circumstances is not a solution. Kurds face an extra dose of discrimination, as OKTBT noted, and Turkey wasn't helping with the documents so that they could improve their lives elsewhere. Kurdi had a sister who was anxious to bring family members over and who had the ability to employ them.

BTW - is anyone talking about finally giving the Kurds their own state? If there was ever a group that needed and deserved it, it's them.

Some random thoughts.

1. I think another reason we see so many more men than women is the fear the women have of being sexually assaulted on the trip. If these smugglers can be as vile as they sound.

2. There has been talk of giving Kurds their own state for years, particularly at the dawn of the second Iraq war. But considering the major Kurdish diaspora crosses (in addition to Iraq and Syria) Turkey and Iran, it ain't happening. You will pull that land out of Turkey's cold dead hands. And Iran giving up land? To Sunnis and Yazidis? Don't even think about it.

3. I cannot emphasize enough how much the concept of a united Kurdistan scares the EVER LOVING SHIT out of most Turkish people. When I lived there, even the word "Kurd" seemed verboten. I mean, the region of northern Iraq and Syria and southern Turkey is commonly referred to as "Kurdistan," but God help you if you ever used that term. Also, a lot of Turks conflate Kurds with the AKP (a Kurdish separatist terrorist group), so Kurd independence is directly associated with bomb attacks at shopping malls and execution style shootings of people riding on buses. A lot of people I worked with knew someone who had been killed in an AKP attack.

Because of all this, there is also an intense bigotry towards Kurds. More than Armenians, more than Jews, more than al-Qaeda (which has attacked several locations in Turkey). I could not believe some of the things I heard from college-educated, otherwise decent, logical people. Comments included "Kurdish isn't a real language, it's just made up" and "We didn't have crime here before the Kurds came" and "Well, they're not really people." There are stories of Turkish patients in southeastern hospitals refusing to share a room with a Kurdish patient.

I lived in an incredibly liberal and well-educated city, Izmir, and was pleasantly surprised at how accepting the people there were towards the local Jewish population, Christians, atheists, and foreigners. Al-Qaeda and religious extremism was both ridiculed and scorned. But people with Kurdish heritage hid it like their lives depended on it (I have parallels I could make, but I'm trying not to Godwin here). If that was the attitude in Izmir (the San Francisco of Turkey), I can't imagine how bad it is in the more rural, conservative, and religious south.

Orhan Pamuk, a once popular novelist and Nobel prize winner in literature, is generally disliked and was put on trial for mentioning that Turkey needs to make amends for its treatment of Armenians and Kurds. A feminist activist was also sued for saying that Kurds need to have a voice in the government. I believe she may have served some jail time as well.

4. I"m guessing all of this is a big reason why so little is being done to help incoming migrants/refugees in Turkey. The drain on its resources comes in a far second. The government probably wants the incoming Kurds out of their country ASAP. I'm guessing a big fear is that the Kurdish population will expand so much in southern Turkey that the Kurds there will have more leverage to either create their own state or lobby for more political and economic rights within Turkey.

*Just as not all Kurds are terrorists, not all Turkish people are anti-Kurd bigots, obviously. But it did seem to be a very, very prevalent attitude.

[nausicaa]

I'm going to pretend I did not read the part where it would be great if they went to a country where they all speak the same language and are the same religion as I'm sure you did not intend that to sound so .......off.

I don't think you can ignore that the transition for most people to a country with the same language, religion, and a (somewhat) similar culture would generally be smoother. I'm American, and it would be loads easier for me to rebuild my life in Canada than it would be to do so in India. I'm certainly not saying we need to segregate refugees so they only go to racially and religiously "matching" countries. But it does stick out to me that countries that are so close and with similar cultures and the same language as the Syrian refugees seem to be doing very little (as far as I can tell).

It's also a bit rich since the Qu'ran specifically encourages people to take in and care for the wandering and the needy, whether some Islamic country has signed a UN treaty or not. But I digress.

[OkToBeTakei]

I don't think you can ignore that the transition for most people to a country with the same language, religion, and a (somewhat) similar culture would generally be smoother. I'm American, and it would be loads easier for me to rebuild my life in Canada than it would be to do so in India. I'm certainly not saying we need to segregate refugees so they only go to racially and religiously "matching" countries. But it does stick out to me that countries that are so close and with similar cultures and the same language as the Syrian refugees seem to be doing very little (as far as I can tell).

It's also a bit rich since the Qu'ran specifically encourages people to take in and care for the wandering and the needy, whether some Islamic country has signed a UN treaty or not. But I digress.

I don't disagree. Also it does seem unclear what aid they are offering (depends where you choose to read/believe.) To the bolded....yes, that would not be good. I daresay it is precisely what some would like.

The other issue is choice. From a purely personal perspective if I was Syrian and had watched this unfold, which it has been for many years and I had watched Saudi bombs dropping on my country EVEN if it was to oust a despotic leader I would probably not seek to go there or anywhere near really. The region is not stable, if I was going to uproot and disrupt my whole life and those of my family, I would choose what I saw as safe rather than more of what might seem the same.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't disagree. Also it does seem unclear what aid they are offering (depends where you choose to read/believe.) To the bolded....yes, that would not be good. I daresay it is precisely what some would like.

The other issue is choice. From a purely personal perspective if I was Syrian and had watched this unfold, which it has been for many years and I had watched Saudi bombs dropping on my country EVEN if it was to oust a despotic leader I would probably not seek to go there or anywhere near really. The region is not stable, if I was going to uproot and disrupt my whole life and those of my family, I would choose what I saw as safe rather than more of what might seem the same.

Add to that the fact that some things which may look similar to outsiders are actually huge fucking differences.

Part of Syria's inherent instability stems from the fact that the modern country was arbitrarily formed by Britain and France drawing a map after they defeated the Ottoman Empire in WWI, without paying much attention to the groups that actually lived in the area. So, you've got Sunnis and Shi'ites and Kurds and Druze and Alawites and even Christians, and the communities never truly gave up tribal/community identities in favor of a Syrian national identity. The Assads kept a brutal lid on things, but lived in constant fear that the larger Sunnis would kick them out of power and attack the Alawites. That's why they had no problem killing so many of their own citizens - they didn't truly see them as part of the same group.

A Shi'ite or Alawite or Druze from Syria is not going to feel perfectly at home in Saudi Arabia, which is Sunni and embraces the Wahhabi school of thought. It may feel quite dangerous for them, since Sunni-Shi'ite conflict can be so intense. As well, Assad's Ba'ath party is secular and somewhat socialist - very different from Saudi Arabia.

[nausicaa]

Some random thoughts.

1. I think another reason we see so many more men than women is the fear the women have of being sexually assaulted on the trip. If these smugglers can be as vile as they sound.

2. There has been talk of giving Kurds their own state for years, particularly at the dawn of the second Iraq war. But considering the major Kurdish diaspora crosses (in addition to Iraq and Syria) Turkey and Iran, it ain't happening. You will pull that land out of Turkey's cold dead hands. And Iran giving up land? To Sunnis and Yazidis? Don't even think about it.

3. I cannot emphasize enough how much the concept of a united Kurdistan scares the EVER LOVING SHIT out of most Turkish people. When I lived there, even the word "Kurd" seemed verboten. I mean, the region of northern Iraq and Syria and southern Turkey is commonly referred to as "Kurdistan," but God help you if you ever used that term. Also, a lot of Turks conflate Kurds with the AKP (a Kurdish separatist terrorist group), so Kurd independence is directly associated with bomb attacks at shopping malls and execution style shootings of people riding on buses. A lot of people I worked with knew someone who had been killed in an AKP attack.

Because of all this, there is also an intense bigotry towards Kurds. More than Armenians, more than Jews, more than al-Qaeda (which has attacked several locations in Turkey). I could not believe some of the things I heard from college-educated, otherwise decent, logical people. Comments included "Kurdish isn't a real language, it's just made up" and "We didn't have crime here before the Kurds came" and "Well, they're not really people." There are stories of Turkish patients in southeastern hospitals refusing to share a room with a Kurdish patient.

I lived in an incredibly liberal and well-educated city, Izmir, and was pleasantly surprised at how accepting the people there were towards the local Jewish population, Christians, atheists, and foreigners. Al-Qaeda and religious extremism was both ridiculed and scorned. But people with Kurdish heritage hid it like their lives depended on it (I have parallels I could make, but I'm trying not to Godwin here). If that was the attitude in Izmir (the San Francisco of Turkey), I can't imagine how bad it is in the more rural, conservative, and religious south.

Orhan Pamuk, a once popular novelist and Nobel prize winner in literature, is generally disliked and was put on trial for mentioning that Turkey needs to make amends for its treatment of Armenians and Kurds. A feminist activist was also sued for saying that Kurds need to have a voice in the government. I believe she may have served some jail time as well.

4. I"m guessing all of this is a big reason why so little is being done to help incoming migrants/refugees in Turkey. The drain on its resources comes in a far second. The government probably wants the incoming Kurds out of their country ASAP. I'm guessing a big fear is that the Kurdish population will expand so much in southern Turkey that the Kurds there will have more leverage to either create their own state or lobby for more political and economic rights within Turkey.

*Just as not all Kurds are terrorists, not all Turkish people are anti-Kurd bigots, obviously. But it did seem to be a very, very prevalent attitude.

***AKP should be PKK. Too many "P"s , too many "K"s and too little sleep. :embarrassed: And thanks to Pretzel for the heads up!***

[nausicaa]

Add to that the fact that some things which may look similar to outsiders are actually huge fucking differences.

Part of Syria's inherent instability stems from the fact that the modern country was arbitrarily formed by Britain and France drawing a map after they defeated the Ottoman Empire in WWI, without paying much attention to the groups that actually lived in the area. So, you've got Sunnis and Shi'ites and Kurds and Druze and Alawites and even Christians, and the communities never truly gave up tribal/community identities in favor of a Syrian national identity. The Assads kept a brutal lid on things, but lived in constant fear that the larger Sunnis would kick them out of power and attack the Alawites. That's why they had no problem killing so many of their own citizens - they didn't truly see them as part of the same group.

A Shi'ite or Alawite or Druze from Syria is not going to feel perfectly at home in Saudi Arabia, which is Sunni and embraces the Wahhabi school of thought. It may feel quite dangerous for them, since Sunni-Shi'ite conflict can be so intense. As well, Assad's Ba'ath party is secular and somewhat socialist - very different from Saudi Arabia.

I agree that there are major differences; I'm not someone who thinks that the Middle East is some homogeneous desert. But there are many Sunni refugees, and I'm imagining some of them at least would be willing to go to the UAE, Qatar, or Kuwait. Or maybe Azerbaijan? (though then the language issue pops up again).

This discussion does get me wondering though, if the more stable Middle Eastern countries were to be open to refugees, what percentage of the refugees would be interested in going? Would the deadly risks of getting to Europe still be worth the possible better end point or would a safer transition to a less stable country be more appealing?

[Clementine]

The majority of Syria's population is sunni. Also, the rich countries in the Middle East has a lot of guest workers who aren't even muslims. It should be possible for refugees to stay in one of the countries, at least until the conflict is over. I miss the Arab / Islamic countries in the debate, they too should be expected to help the Syrian refugees, not just the West.

nausicaa25: Interesting post about Turkey, thank you for sharing!

[Cleopatra7]

Hopefully, these people are outliers, but it's super-creepy to see a Finnish nationalist dressed in a makeshift KKK costume:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/world ... click&_r=0

[latraviata]

Hopefully, these people are outliers, but it's super-creepy to see a Finnish nationalist dressed in a makeshift KKK costume:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/world ... click&_r=0

Although the designated FJ racist and bigot, I find this is absolutely appalling and certainly not the solution at all au contraire! The uncontrollable refugee invasion is worrisome, but focus your concerns on the decision-makers!

[sockinshoe]

So my parents recently decided to begin looking after/helping out/keeping an eye on these two young men (brothers in their late teens) who fled from Damascus, leaving behind their parents. Those kids have gone through hell. They fled through territory controlled by IS, made it to Macedonia where one boy was beaten badly by police, and now they're in Berlin. They speak no German, the young man who got beaten is in near-constant pain (his ribs were badly bruised and maybe cracked); they have nothing. These kids are innocents whose lives were no longer possible where they were living. They are braver than I could ever be, especially as they begin to settle in and learn German. They want to make this work.

It's galling to see people want to deny these kids the chance to live lives that are safe and long and prosperous, just because they're foreign/refugees/Muslims. It's even more galling that this happens in Germany, a country that once produced its fair share of refugees. In 1945, my German grandmother was a refugee. She was 15. She was running from the aftereffects and devastation of a war she did not cause, that claimed almost her entire family. She was fortunate enough to have strangers, who often had nothing themselves, open their homes and pantries to her. How can Europe, especially Germany, forget its own refugee history?

[VelociRapture]

So my parents recently decided to begin looking after/helping out/keeping an eye on these two young men (brothers in their late teens) who fled from Damascus, leaving behind their parents. Those kids have gone through hell. They fled through territory controlled by IS, made it to Macedonia where one boy was beaten badly by police, and now they're in Berlin. They speak no German, the young man who got beaten is in near-constant pain (his ribs were badly bruised and maybe cracked); they have nothing. These kids are innocents whose lives were no longer possible where they were living. They are braver than I could ever be, especially as they begin to settle in and learn German. They want to make this work.

It's galling to see people want to deny these kids the chance to live lives that are safe and long and prosperous, just because they're foreign/refugees/Muslims. It's even more galling that this happens in Germany, a country that once produced its fair share of refugees. In 1945, my German grandmother was a refugee. She was 15. She was running from the aftereffects and devastation of a war she did not cause, that claimed almost her entire family. She was fortunate enough to have strangers, who often had nothing themselves, open their homes and pantries to her. How can Europe, especially Germany, forget its own refugee history?

I'm very glad to hear there are good people like your parents who are willing and able to help. If we lived in a European country then we would help - as it is, there's not much we can do.

Please let those boys know I'm thinking of them and I hope they are able, with time, to heal from the horrors they've seen. They are so strong and so brave.

[sockinshoe]

I'm very glad to hear there are good people like your parents who are willing and able to help. If we lived in a European country then we would help - as it is, there's not much we can do.

Please let those boys know I'm thinking of them and I hope they are able, with time, to heal from the horrors they've seen. They are so strong and so brave.

Currently, I have no common language with either of them. Nor do my parents. Instead a friend of my mom's who is also taking care of a young refugee acts as interpreter. The most mindboggling thing is that, aside from acknowledging that the older brother had been beaten, was in pain, and wanted to seek medical treatment/pain relief, they haven't complained about anything they experienced. They haven't expressed any alienation or discomfort. They don't dwell on what they left behind; they are choosing to move forward. My parents are encouraging them to seek counseling, but the response so far has been "why would I talk about the things that hurt and upset me? That would only bring me down. I'm too busy moving forward to let the past bring me down".