The European Refugee Crisis - MERGED

[Clementine]

Thank you for your elaborate explaination, Clementine. This reminds me alot about the situation in my country 5 years ago.

Is it okay to PM you ?

Absolutely!

[Sundaymorning]

Thank you Clementine for your posts.

I think the thought police that those, who usually claim that they are so accepting of everyone, impose on the whole society is really scary.

You are a (in reality pretty moderate) Libertarian like me? You are surely an ebil monster who wants people to starve and die.

You are against the EU in its current state? You are a mean Nazi.

You think that immigrants have to adhere to the local values and laws, and those who refuse should get kicked out again? You... I can't even have a discussion with you, I have to leave!!! (dramatic stormout)

It reminds me of the days where the Bush administration and their henchmen labeld anyone who dared to question the 2003 Iraq war as unpatriotic and a terrorist sympathizer.

[Clementine]

Thank you Clementine for your posts.

I think the thought police that those, who usually claim that they are so accepting of everyone, impose on the whole society is really scary.

You are a (in reality pretty moderate) Libertarian like me? You are surely an ebil monster who wants people to starve and die.

You are against the EU in its current state? You are a mean Nazi.

You think that immigrants have to adhere to the local values and laws, and those who refuse should get kicked out again? You... I can't even have a discussion with you, I have to leave!!! (dramatic stormout)

It reminds me of the days where the Bush administration and their henchmen labeld anyone who dared to question the 2003 Iraq war as unpatriotic and a terrorist sympathizer.

You're welcome, Sundaymorning. :)

I am something much worse than a Libertarian... I am a conservative. In a country where even the conservative party has become liberals, without any respect for our history or the people who built this country or supports it with the worlds highest taxes. My opinioin that changes in the society should be done in small steps, where we keep what is working and slowly and thoughtfully improve what is not is a view that doesn't even have a voice in Sweden today.

I so agree with you about the thought police and it really dumbs down a society where it's not allowed to have open debates where people focus on debating an issue, but instead do their best to make the opposing side shut up, preferably by namecalling. I don't know when bullying became an acceptable way of debating, but that's where we are now.

Right now it's impossible to debate the refugee issue when you are met with "SO YOU WANT BABIES TO DIE THEN!!!!"

The irony is that the kind of refugee relief we are doing by taking in refugees here is an extremely expensive one. If we truely wanted to save lives, we should spend money to improve the conditions in the refugee camps. It costs about $25 to feed a family in a camp for one month. And it costs about $200 per day to house one unacompanied minor asylum seeker in Sweden. So if we spend $6000, we can either house one Afghan teenager in Sweden for one month or feed 240 families in a Syrian camp. (Who wants to kill babies now?)

[aquitana]

What do the Swedish Democrats believe in? What is their point of view?

[Clementine]

What do the Swedish Democrats believe in? What is their point of view?

They call themselves social-conservatives. The party has it's roots in extreme right wing parties, but left that ideology 20 years ago and seems to work hard to kick out members with racist and extremist views. They are seen as an extreme party in Sweden but are rather mainstream compared to other European parties. And their politics regarding refugees and immigrants is more or less the same as the Conservative party had in Sweden in the 90's.

When it comes to refugees, they basically want to have the same rules of immigration as the other Nordic countries. Sweden has an extremely generous policy compared to our neighbours.

SD wants stricter immigration, temporary permits of residence as opposed to the permanent permits of residence that are issued now, they want to make it easier to expel criminal immigrants (right now even killers rarely are kicked out of the country), and above all they want to spend more money on helping refugees in the areas they live to get the most bang for the bucks.

I think that's the big ideas, you can read more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats

[PregnantPornStar]

I have nothing to add at the moment (beer) but I am absolutely fascinated (and horrified) with this discussion about Sweden. Thank you Clementine. This has brought up a big family discussion that my 15 year old daughter is taking part of!

[freejingerbeth]

Regardless of individual points of view, in this matter, I want to thank everyone for their posts. I have learned more about world politics and affairs, since joining FJ, than at any other time of my life. Some posters have an unpopular opinion. However, they seem to be sharing their thoughts, based upon what they are seeing, living in countries like Sweden and The Netherlands, instead of from an ideological standpoint. Thank you for that, especially. Sometimes, we get so caught up in our ideaology, that we fail to see reality. To Clementine and Latraviata: What do you think the U.S. response should be, to the concerns you laid out? For example, do you think we should demand that those claiming asylum, have legal papers? I don't even know if we have that kind of power. Also, what if someone who is legitimately claiming asylum, doesn't have legal papers? As to differences in culture, I am glad that more people, practicing Islam, have moved into my area. However, I have some concerns. It bothers me that none of the young Islamic women, who attend our local high school, drive. They also don't seem to attend any school events, such as sports games, or dances. If that is what they want, I have no problem with it. But, if they are being prevented from doing these things, and being forced to wear the headscarf to school, then I have a big concern. Additionally, we have had a few stories, within the US, in which girls have been married off, against their will, killed because they had a boyfriend, or sent to other countries, to be circumsized. I agree with the poster, (I think it was Sunday Morning) who said that if you re-locate to another country, you should have to agree, maybe in writing, that you will follow the laws of that country. Finally, I think it is unreasonable for someone to move to another country, and then demand their own court system. I can't imagine doing that. Finally, I am very glad to hear about the German citizens' reaction to the two schools who tried to dictate what the girls could wear, to prevent them from being attacked. Obviously, no one should be assaulted, based on their clothing.

[latraviata]

They call themselves social-conservatives. The party has it's roots in extreme right wing parties, but left that ideology 20 years ago and seems to work hard to kick out members with racist and extremist views. They are seen as an extreme party in Sweden but are rather mainstream compared to other European parties. And their politics regarding refugees and immigrants is more or less the same as the Conservative party had in Sweden in the 90's.

When it comes to refugees, they basically want to have the same rules of immigration as the other Nordic countries. Sweden has an extremely generous policy compared to our neighbours.

SD wants stricter immigration, temporary permits of residence as opposed to the permanent permits of residence that are issued now, they want to make it easier to expel criminal immigrants (right now even killers rarely are kicked out of the country), and above all they want to spend more money on helping refugees in the areas they live to get the most bang for the bucks.

I think that's the big ideas, you can read more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats

That is exactly what the Dutch alledged 'extreme right party" wants, their social policy is in fact very left wing, they have their roots in a fairly moderate conservative party. The Netherlands have about the same generous social benefit system, no illegal criminal has ever been kicked out of the country. The Netherlands are about the size of Maryland with 17 million inhabitants, a vision of the future seems necessary to me. Well, there isn't.

I want to emphasize that the large flow of refugees are really not only Syrians. Africans, Afghans, Pakistanis, Bangla Deshi and that's all to the detriment of genuine refugees, they must be helped, preferably in the region.

[latraviata]

Regardless of individual points of view, in this matter, I want to thank everyone for their posts. I have learned more about world politics and affairs, since joining FJ, than at any other time of my life. Some posters have an unpopular opinion. However, they seem to be sharing their thoughts, based upon what they are seeing, living in countries like Sweden and The Netherlands, instead of from an ideological standpoint. Thank you for that, especially. Sometimes, we get so caught up in our ideaology, that we fail to see reality. To Clementine and Latraviata: What do you think the U.S. response should be, to the concerns you laid out? For example, do you think we should demand that those claiming asylum, have legal papers? I don't even know if we have that kind of power. Also, what if someone who is legitimately claiming asylum, doesn't have legal papers? As to differences in culture, I am glad that more people, practicing Islam, have moved into my area. However, I have some concerns. It bothers me that none of the young Islamic women, who attend our local high school, drive. They also don't seem to attend any school events, such as sports games, or dances. If that is what they want, I have no problem with it. But, if they are being prevented from doing these things, and being forced to wear the headscarf to school, then I have a big concern. Additionally, we have had a few stories, within the US, in which girls have been married off, against their will, killed because they had a boyfriend, or sent to other countries, to be circumsized. I agree with the poster, (I think it was Sunday Morning) who said that if you re-locate to another country, you should have to agree, maybe in writing, that you will follow the laws of that country. Finally, I think it is unreasonable for someone to move to another country, and then demand their own court system. I can't imagine doing that. Finally, I am very glad to hear about the German citizens' reaction to the two schools who tried to dictate what the girls could wear, to prevent them from being attacked. Obviously, no one should be assaulted, based on their clothing.

What the US should do? I have no idea....

[freejingerbeth]

I only asked because Clementine stated that she couldn't believe that The U.S. was letting Sweden get away with their current policies. I was just wondering what The U.S. could do, to influence a different policy. Until I started reading this thread, I did not realize how complicated this issue, really was. At first glance, it seemed pretty straightforward. People were/are fleeing for their lives, we need to help them. I didn't understand how many other factors we needed to consider.

[freejingerbeth]

The only way the refugees can be helped, within their region, is if ISIS is eliminated. The U.S. is weary of war. And, we are trillions of dollars in debt. I understand that we helped create the mess, but I am not sure we are going to be of much help, at least short term. And, even if we did go in, with ground troops, we would be looking for a viable alternative. Right now, I don't see one. Although, maybe The U.S. needs to quit trying to set up new governments, and instead, just help countries, like Syria, get rid of extremists, like ISIS. Still, even if we adopted that philosophy, I don't think our country is very willing to expend a lot of money, or troops, in this situation.

[prayawaythefundie]

At first glance, it seemed pretty straightforward. People were/are fleeing for their lives, we need to help them.

I think that part ist still true. We should not be reconsidering help in general but the ways in which to help. Also, the general public will need to find a middle ground in discussion. People seem to be tending to extreme views, suggesting we only have the choice of letting everyone come to Europe because if they come, they must have a valid reason versus attacking refugee shelters out of frustration with current asylum politics. When did regulating influx and making people abide the laws become contradictory to providing food and a safe place to stay in for accepted refugees?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

The only way the refugees can be helped, within their region, is if ISIS is eliminated. The U.S. is weary of war.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Really? After how many wars in the last century? It was well about time! And ISIS have no mass destruction arms that we know of, oh wait...

Sorry I don't want to offend but I couldn't resist the temptation to mock you a bit. I hope that you will steer away from trying to influence our internal policies on AS or on anything else. At the moment in Italy there aren't many nice thoughts to spare for USA policies. Thanks to dear George W Bush and the economic crack down of 2008 and all the still lasting fall outs, people are wary.

But what you say is absolutely true. You helped to create the mess so you should help to clear it and an armed intervention would probably be the quickest way. Unfortunately it's also the most complicated. After all Syria is still a Russian ally and if you defeat ISIS you help Assad doing a favor to Putin. Russia is at the moment a very hot topic. Culturally and historically they are one of us European countries, politically they aren't in the EU and often they are on opposite positions. This is sensitive for economic reasons, we need Russian gas and we need Russia as a market for our goods (with the sanctions to them Italy alone has lost some billion euros) and for political reasons such as the Ukrainian situation, the bickering between USA and Russia and the historically based great wariness of many eastern European states (that now are in EU) towards Russia. Too many knots for the EU to quickly choose a position.

Back to Syria, ISIS isn't a big force, it doesn't have strong roots in the country, they are a hated minority, not well armed too. So if we really wanted to it wouldn't be too difficult to get rid of them. But on what basis you do an armed intervention in Syria? A fully fledged war? We Europe should move as a whole and it's nearly impossible for the reasons above, also for example Italy cannot make wars because in our Constitution it's written that we repudiate was if not for defense. A UN "peacemaking"/peacekeeping intervention? It's maybe more difficult to obtain a UN decision than to make EU countries agree. Also personally I (and many that I know) don't like UN. I think it failed every purpose it had (ie in the Balkan wars, Srebrenica in particular, in Rwanda, in telling USA you are not the Sheriff of the world etc). In conclusion I think an armed solution is hard to obtain, we are choosing to stay and watch and to go on bickering on AS.

About the AS I want to repeat that the vast majority of those who arrive on our (Italian) shores are economic migrants. Since we are morons, once it's clear that someone is an illegal migrant a court orders to this person to go away on his own. Next time they find this person the court orders it again and again and again, but with no enforcement whatsoever. We also don't repatriate those guilty of heinous crimes, we keep (and fund it) them on our third world (with no offence intended to the third world) rated jails. In this situation the mere arrival of this people is a problem.

For true refugees there are no possibilities here. Youth unemployment is at 45%, there are no jobs, especially in the South the situation is dire and, as our debt grows, it will worsen. But this opens the part of the book on the migration/refugee time bomb the whole Africa is.

What can USA do? Help with the refugees. Help them locally or take them to USA you choose but please help them.

@Clementine what's SD stance on EU? Where are those 25% voters? Don't you feel them between the population? 25% means one out of four, they could be very vocal by now.

Edited to fix quote, typos and grammar

[OkToBeTakei]

What do the Swedish Democrats believe in? What is their point of view?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/d ... istianstad

Niclas Nilsson, the Sweden Democrats’ group leader on Kristianstad council, rails against “the huge number of immigrants†and says the country has “the most irresponsible immigration policy in western Europeâ€, although he is unable to say how many immigrants live in Kristianstad.

“Swedish people don’t feel at home any more,†he said. “The problem we have is basically with the Muslims. They have difficulty assimilating, so much of their culture is based on Islam.†Nilsson acknowledged – but had no explanation for – the fact that the vote for his party is higher in isolated, rural areas, where there are fewer immigrants.

Nilsson fears that a higher birth rate among Muslim immigrants will eventually see them in the majority, with the inevitable dilution of the nation’s “Swedishnessâ€, although he struggles to define this notion. But his biggest concern is that the mainstream parties might adopt much of the Sweden Democrats’ immigration policies: “That could be disastrous for our continued growth,†he said.

For me the problem with this type of politics gaining popularity is the fact that immigration IS a problem. In Sweden other countries and the UK. The UK equivalent of the above, UKIP and it's leader Nigel Farage are also gaining in popularity. What is dangerous is that they appeal on some levels and do in fact make sense whilst hiding rather nasty little beliefs. The far right in the UK attracts the type of person who wants to hear their little part of the UK will remain theirs, their money will remain theirs and beyond that they really do not take the time to read further and in some cases don't really care.

“The risk is that in a society where the Sweden Democrats ( read other far right parties) have a greater and greater say and immigration is portrayed as basically a problem, racist ideas and actions become more normalised.

Immigration IS a problem, the answer I hope is not bigotry and racism.

Out of interest to any Swede here, I'm not wholly familiar with Swedish demographics, why is this party more popular in the south of Sweden?

There is an academic study in that article for those who wish to read further.

As an aside. In the wiki article linked The Swedish democrat party consider children raised in a 'traditional' nuclear family as the preferred option but claim to not be hostile to what they call the 'Homosex Lobby.' Oh wait, no I got that wrong, they claim not to be hostile to homosexuals but criticise what they call the 'Homosex Lobby.' Well that just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

[Clementine]

I have nothing to add at the moment (beer) but I am absolutely fascinated (and horrified) with this discussion about Sweden. Thank you Clementine. This has brought up a big family discussion that my 15 year old daughter is taking part of!

Thank you PregnantPornStar. :) I think it's great that the teenagers are getting informed about the complexity of the situation and the state of security around the world. (Or lack of security in our case.)

Regardless of individual points of view, in this matter, I want to thank everyone for their posts. I have learned more about world politics and affairs, since joining FJ, than at any other time of my life. Some posters have an unpopular opinion. However, they seem to be sharing their thoughts, based upon what they are seeing, living in countries like Sweden and The Netherlands, instead of from an ideological standpoint. Thank you for that, especially. Sometimes, we get so caught up in our ideaology, that we fail to see reality. To Clementine and Latraviata: What do you think the U.S. response should be, to the concerns you laid out? For example, do you think we should demand that those claiming asylum, have legal papers? I don't even know if we have that kind of power.

If we have a situation where there are people who we have no idea who they really are travelling the world on a Swedish passport, the other countries should react, to protect their own populations. The US could for example have a lot stricter rules regarding issuing visas to Swedes.

And although Sweden is offically a neutral country when it comes to the millitary (we're not members of NATO), there is a lot of collaboration between the US and Sweden. Some of it officially, like military exercises where Americans participate ( we had the Arctic Challenge Exercise in the north where nine nationalities participated earlier this year, the US was one of them). In return we get intelligence, for example. The US could put pressure on Sweden or else no more collaborations. Sweden has more to gain from them then the US who are basically doing us a favour.

It's not like there aren't Swedish terrorists that have threatened US interests. The most famous:

Oussama Kassir. Lebanese born islamist with a Swedish passport. Sentenced in the US for setting up terrorist training camps in Oregon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oussama_Kassir

Mohamed Moumou/Abu Qaswarah/Abu Sara. Maroccan with a Swedish passport. Married to a Swedish convert.

Was the second in command for Al Qaeda in Iraq. Killed by US military outside Mosul in 2008 (thanks guys!):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Moumou

Makram Mejri. Tunisian with a Swedish passport. Married to a Swedish convert. Blew himself up in a suicide mission in Iraq in 2011.

Mohamed Yusuf and Ali Yasin Ahmed. Somalis with Swedish passports. Pleaded guilty to uilty to conspiring to provide material support to al-Shabaab, a designated foreign terrorist organization. Today’s plea took place before United States District Judge John Gleeson. At sentencing, each of the defendants faces a maximum of 15 years in prison and automatic removal from the United States.

https://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-relea ... ganization

Fuad Qalaf/Fuad Shongole. Somali who was granted asylum in Sweden in 1992, later became a Swedish citizen. Worked in a mosque north of Stockholm before returning to Somalia and becoming a senior leader of Al Shabaab.

In May 2014, Qalaf stated that al-Shabab fighters would carry out jihad, or holy war, in Kenya and Uganda "and afterward, with God's will, to America."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuad_Qalaf

Mehdi Ghezali. Swede with an Algerian father. Was captured in Pakistan, near the Tora Bora mountains in 2001 and was sent to Guantanamo Bay. Released in 2004. Was arrested in Pakistan again in 2009, suspected og Al Qaeda links. Released and returned to Sweden. With him was Munir Awad, a Swede who is currently serving a sentence for plotting to blow up Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that published the Muhamed cartoons.

Ghezali's brother is currently fighting for IS in Syria.

+ the 300 IS terrorists who have left Sweden to join IS, something that is not illegal, nor is it illegal for them to return to Sweden, no strings attached. Our country is used as a garrison town by IS terrorists and there are no laws to stop them. I am surprised that there still are western countries that wants to have any relationship with us.

[Clementine]

Out of interest to any Swede here, I'm not wholly familiar with Swedish demographics, why is this party more popular in the south of Sweden?

There is an academic study in that article for those who wish to read further.

As an aside. In the wiki article linked The Swedish democrat party consider children raised in a 'traditional' nuclear family as the preferred option but claim to not be hostile to what they call the 'Homosex Lobby.' Oh wait, no I got that wrong, they claim not to be hostile to homosexuals but criticise what they call the 'Homosex Lobby.' Well that just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Two reasons: Malmö and Landskrona. Two working class harbour cities in Skåne in the south of Sweden that has had a very high influx of non European immigrants for 30+ years. The Swedes are becoming a minority in Malmö and I think that Landskrona has about 30% immigrants or second generation immigrants.

Both towns struggle with high unemployment, bad school results and very high crime rates. There are shootings and bombings in Malmö every week now, really not a safe place anymore. Both towns also have a very high rate of people who are dependent on welfare. Malmö gets huge subsidiaries from the government every year to make it. The third biggest town in Sweden, situated in the south, should do a lot better.

Also, the jews are fleeing Malmö because of the anti-semitism that is growing there. Not from Swedish neo nazis this time, but from immigrants with roots in the Middle East.

The people in Skåne has been able to see the effect of the immigration policies that our politicians have imposed for 30 years and as a result vote for the only party who wants to have stricter immigration laws. Simple as that.

[prayawaythefundie]

For me the problem with this type of politics gaining popularity is the fact that immigration IS a problem. In Sweden other countries and the UK. The UK equivalent of the above, UKIP and it's leader Nigel Farage are also gaining in popularity. What is dangerous is that they appeal on some levels and do in fact make sense whilst hiding rather nasty little beliefs. The far right in the UK attracts the type of person who wants to hear their little part of the UK will remain theirs, their money will remain theirs and beyond that they really do not take the time to read further and in some cases don't really care.

This.

to join IS, something that is not illegal, nor is it illegal for them to return to Sweden, no strings attached.

Now that is a big problem! If that were they case here I'd be scared as well.

[OkToBeTakei]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Really? After how many wars in the last century? It was well about time! And ISIS have no mass destruction arms that we know of, oh wait...

Sorry I don't want to offend but I couldn't resist the temptation to mock you a bit. I hope that you will steer away from trying to influence our internal policies on AS or on anything else. At the moment in Italy there aren't many nice thoughts to spare for USA policies. Thanks to dear George W Bush and the economic crack down of 2008 and all the still lasting fall outs, people are wary.

But what you say is absolutely true. You helped to create the mess so you should help to clear it and an armed intervention would probably be the quickest way. Unfortunately it's also the most complicated. After all Syria is still a Russian ally and if you defeat ISIS you help Assad doing a favor to Putin. Russia is at the moment a very hot topic. Culturally and historically they are one of us European countries, politically they aren't in the EU and often they are on opposite positions. This is sensitive for economic reasons, we need Russian gas and we need Russia as a market for our goods (with the sanctions to them Italy alone has lost some billion euros) and for political reasons such as the Ukrainian situation, the bickering between USA and Russia and the historically based great wariness of many eastern European states (that now are in EU) towards Russia. Too many knots for the EU to quickly choose a position.

Back to Syria, ISIS isn't a big force, it doesn't have strong roots in the country, they are a hated minority, not well armed too. So if we really wanted to it wouldn't be too difficult to get rid of them. But on what basis you do an armed intervention in Syria? A fully fledged war? We Europe should move as a whole and it's nearly impossible for the reasons above, also for example Italy cannot make wars because in our Constitution it's written that we repudiate was if not for defense. A UN "peacemaking"/peacekeeping intervention? It's maybe more difficult to obtain a UN decision than to make EU countries agree. Also personally I (and many that I know) don't like UN. I think it failed every purpose it had (ie in the Balkan wars, Srebrenica in particular, in Rwanda, in telling USA you are not the Sheriff of the world etc). In conclusion I think an armed solution is hard to obtain, we are choosing to stay and watch and to go on bickering on AS.

About the AS I want to repeat that the vast majority of those who arrive on our (Italian) shores are economic migrants. Since we are morons, once it's clear that someone is an illegal migrant a court orders to this person to go away on his own. Next time they find this person the court orders it again and again and again, but with no enforcement whatsoever. We also don't repatriate those guilty of heinous crimes, we keep (and fund it) them on our third world (with no offence intended to the third world) rated jails. In this situation the mere arrival of this people is a problem.

For true refugees there are no possibilities here. Youth unemployment is at 45%, there are no jobs, especially in the South the situation is dire and, as our debt grows, it will worsen. But this opens the part of the book on the migration/refugee time bomb the whole Africa is.

What can USA do? Help with the refugees. Help them locally or take them to USA you choose but please help them.

@Clementine what's SD stance on EU? Where are those 25% voters? Don't you feel them between the population? 25% means one out of four, they could be very vocal by now.

Edited to fix quote, typos and grammar

For accuracy and NON-sensationalist commenting it might be useful to know this is a projected vote. If you dig a little you will also find that projected YOU.GOV polls in Sweden do not always reflect actual voting. The actual vote was less than 13%.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

For accuracy and NON-sensationalist commenting it might be useful to know this is a projected vote. If you dig a little you will also find that projected YOU.GOV polls in Sweden do not always reflect actual voting. The actual vote was less than 13%.

That's what I was thinking. Lately polls have been quite a fraud. During the last Italian election campaign polls predicted a victory of the centre-left coalition with some margin too. Listening to people chatting around in bars,I (that admittedly know little about statistics) could say that it wasn't going to happen. In fact it didn't happen. So I was asking how she feels the atmosphere is, since if the 25% figure itssomething near reality you should feel it among population.

ETA I was asking because here happened somewhat the same with a party (radical ideas, anti EU, albeit a lot more left wing than SD) called Movimento5Stelle that from nothing (5% in the previous elections) arose to be the first Italian party with nearly 30% in the last italian elections to decrease to a more modest 15-20% in the last administrative (not general) elections. And I felt it was a similar pattern.

[OkToBeTakei]

Two reasons: Malmö and Landskrona. Two working class harbour cities in Skåne in the south of Sweden that has had a very high influx of non European immigrants for 30+ years. The Swedes are becoming a minority in Malmö and I think that Landskrona has about 30% immigrants or second generation immigrants.

Both towns struggle with high unemployment, bad school results and very high crime rates. There are shootings and bombings in Malmö every week now, really not a safe place anymore. Both towns also have a very high rate of people who are dependent on welfare. Malmö gets huge subsidiaries from the government every year to make it. The third biggest town in Sweden, situated in the south, should do a lot better.

Also, the jews are fleeing Malmö because of the anti-semitism that is growing there. Not from Swedish neo nazis this time, but from immigrants with roots in the Middle East.

The people in Skåne has been able to see the effect of the immigration policies that our politicians have imposed for 30 years and as a result vote for the only party who wants to have stricter immigration laws. Simple as that.

I don't think you can revise history that 'simply.' Or bypass that the region you are talking about has a history supporting fascism since the 1930's.

I don't think anybody is arguing that economic immigration is a not a problem in Europe. Speciafically the burden on Sweden accepting more than their share. I can understand why there may be anger and fear that the economy and culture is struggling but history and facts you have omitted paint a deeper picture.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... orm-sweden

In October 2010, a white Swedish man went on a rampage in Malmö, shooting more than 20 people of colour and killing one. The killer was officially considered to be a lone wolf with psychological problems rather than a terrorist with racist motives, and he has still not been prosecuted.

Last April, at a student dinner gathering at the prestigious Lund University, students arrived with their faces blacked up, with nooses and shackles around their necks and arms, and led by a white "slave trader". During the course of the evening, a slave auction was enacted.When I filed a complaint, I was subjected to a racist reprisal. Apart from threats against me and my family, a manipulated picture of me as a slave in shackles was made into posters bearing the words, in Swedish: "This is our runaway Redacted slave and he answers to the name Jallow Momodou. If you should find him please call this number." These were put up in several different spots around my workplace, Malmö university. Rev Jesse Jackson himself condemned the harassment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11637909

"If you're not blond, if you're not an original Swedish person, if you're an immigrant like me, that's it for you."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/1 ... 22851.html

On anti-semitism and Islamophobia

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/anti-semitism-in-malmö-reveals-flaws-in-swedish-immigration-system-1.

A fairly non-partisan view of the Swedish Democratic Party.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29202793

That does not mean the Sweden Democrats have shaken off their past but, with two MEPs in the European Parliament, they are now part of the same grouping as the Eurosceptic UK Independence Party - the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group.

Swedish voters are attracted to the party, more because it gives a voice to people who dislike the political elite than its stance on immigration, Prof Bjereld believes.

And although he argues that party membership will always have a racist element, the main stance is more xenophobic than racist.

[OkToBeTakei]

That's what I was thinking. Lately polls have been quite a fraud. During the last Italian election campaign polls predicted a victory of the centre-left coalition with some margin too. Listening to people chatting around in bars,I (that admittedly know little about statistics) could say that it wasn't going to happen. In fact it didn't happen. So I was asking how she feels the atmosphere is, since if the 25% figure itssomething near reality you should feel it among population.

ETA I was asking because here happened somewhat the same with a party (radical ideas, anti EU, albeit a lot more left wing than SD) called Movimento5Stelle that from nothing (5% in the previous elections) arose to be the first Italian party with nearly 30% in the last italian elections to decrease to a more modest 15-20% in the last administrative (not general) elections. And I felt it was a similar pattern.

It was similar in the UK Papessa. UKIP were projected to make huge gains in the last election, the reality was very different. I think it's important to balance out some of the more sensationalist comments on this thread for those Non-Europeans who show an interest. I think most posters have the intelligence to dig around and come to their own conclusions rather than buy into other's motivations and beliefs. Well I hope so. 8-)

[laPapessaGiovanna]

It was similar in the UK Papessa. UKIP were projected to make huge gains in the last election, the reality was very different. I think it's important to balance out some of the more sensationalist comments on this thread for those Non-Europeans who show an interest. I think most posters have the intelligence to dig around and come to their own conclusions rather than buy into other's motivations and beliefs. Well I hope so. 8-)

I wanted to write about UKIP and Marine Le Pen but I had to fix a healthy meal and watch the motoGP race :D. However I followed closely UK last election campaign and results reading the dailyfail (I love the comments, nearly as dumb and snarkable as Lori Alexander) and the guardian. However I noticed that UKIP lost so blatantly only because of how your count votes with your electoral laws, in Italy votes aren't tied to a local seat so those who earn ie 20% votes in the whole country win 20% seats in Parliament and those who earn (as a coalition) the most in % earns also bonus seats, last time even counting bonus seats the coalition with the majority of seats didn't have enough to make a government that had enough endorsement in Parliament hence the political chaos resulted in a government and a premier that aren't what we elected.

I'm sure that those who are curious, capable of critical thinking and want to make an opinion for themselves will do so basing their searches on a wide variety of material, the others won't.

[freejingerbeth]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Really? After how many wars in the last century? It was well about time! And ISIS have no mass destruction arms that we know of, oh wait...

Sorry I don't want to offend but I couldn't resist the temptation to mock you a bit. I hope that you will steer away from trying to influence our internal policies on AS or on anything else. At the moment in Italy there aren't many nice thoughts to spare for USA policies. Thanks to dear George W Bush and the economic crack down of 2008 and all the still lasting fall outs, people are wary.

But what you say is absolutely true. You helped to create the mess so you should help to clear it and an armed intervention would probably be the quickest way.

What can USA do? Help with the refugees. Help them locally or take them to USA you choose but please help them.

@Clementine what's SD stance on EU? Where are those 25% voters? Don't you feel them between the population? 25% means one out of four, they could be very vocal by now.

Edited to fix quote, typos and grammar

I empathize with your frustration, and am not offended. As an individual, I did not support the Iraq War, or Desert Storm. I was not even alive, when Vietnam began. And, as I recall, Italy had a hand in WWI, and WWII, as well. :) Americans were tired of war, well before we actually pulled out of Iraq, and Afghanistan. Regardless of the reason in which we came to that consensus, it is the truth, and will affect how our country helps. From both logistical and tactical view points, an armed intervention would not be quick. After a year of US air strikes, ISIS ranks have not decreased. They have been very successful in replenishing their ranks from foreign countries. They are extremely well funded, and have moved forward to become a presence in both Libya, and Egypt. Although they have not invested much of their money into their infrastructure, and their violent behavior towards Syrian people, suggests that they are not "winning the hearts and minds of its people", it also puts the US in a difficult place. To take advantange of that weakness, we would have to go in and do the same things we tried to do in Afghanistan and Iraq. We would try and provide the infrastructure and services, and in return be criticized for "Nation Building." More importantly, if we implement more armed intervention, in addition to the airstrikes, we are going to kill many innocent civilians. Too many innocent Iraq civilians lost their lives, due to our invasion. We don't need to repeat it, in another country. In addition, to all of this, one assessment by the CIA indicates that removing ISIS from all of their strongholds could take as long as 10 years.

Regarding our need to help, either locally, or within the US, I agree. As of today, I am hearing that we may take as many as 10,000 refugees. That isn't many. On the other hand, we don't exactly share any land borders so, getting the refugees here, is harder. I think a better solution, would be to help out more, locally. According to a couple of graphs/charts, the US has already given the most money, to the refugee camps. Perhaps we can give more. But, I would hope that we could also send more volunteers, to help, including either MED or FID Missions from our US Army Civil Affairs Units. Assisting in establishing safe routes for getting supplies in, would also help.

[prayawaythefundie]

Hate to be a pessimist but if we don't find a fair solution and find it quick, the Schengen Agreement might be discontinued.

Quoting myself here because there goes the Schengen Agreement: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/13/germany-to-close-borders-exit-schengen-emergency-measures (guardian, so not breaking link)

[Aurora rising]

I live in Germany and I don´t see any "downfall" right now or soon. And the terror the last year we had was much more from Nazis, not from Islamists. Just saying.