Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Well, I don't know Josh personally so I can't say that it isn't about sex. Many of his answers indicate to me that it could, in fact, be all about sex, or affection, even. But, with his upbringing, you certainly could be right. There could be a whole slew of different influences that have contributed to these destructive behaviours. I just can't say with any certainty.

Yeah, I think attempting to reduce this to simple terms is unfair. I know a man who was arrogant and narcissistic and came across as very all-knowing.

But he was also very insecure and poorly educated on certain social norms and kind to small children and some animals.

People are rarely black and white. They're all sorts of shades of grays (greys) and have both good and bad traits.

Some of his "wants" make me sad because they seem like some of the most basic elements in an egalitarian relationship. Some just make me roll my eyes. I just don't think we know enough to say, "This was his motivation," with any confidence. Even if he said, "This was my motivation," it'd get some side-eye from me.

[twinmama]

Normally I would agree that the partner almost always knows but I'm not sure in this case. Anna did everything she was supposed to. She kept modest and sweet. She learned to be the perfect wife and mother and then she waited patiently for her husband to claim her. I'm not sure that she ever even imagined that her prince could possibly be a toad but that isn't how fairy tales go.

I hope Jana and the older girls pay close attention. Their prince could turn out to be a jackass too and there is nothing fun about discovering yourself in the barn with 4 young kids, no job prospects and nothing but the donkey that you married to count on.

Oof, that's a good point about how they have NO security in case something happens to their husband or he turns out to be a total turd like Josh. If he dies, hopefully they have some kind of insurance, but if he just turns out to be a total jerk they almost have to stay because what else do they do? How depressing.

[CharityBear]

Somebody needs to play Carrie Underwood's "Before He Cheats" so Anna learns some things she could do to get back at Josh. She could dig her key into the side of his junior stink bus.

[Hot Dog Fingers]

Regardless, it doesn't look like the social media silence will be quite what it was after Joshgate1.0

I agree. I think the silence won't be long from everyone, especially since they have things scheduled.

I keep lurking Amy's Instagram because I know the silence is killing her lol. I saw that her fiance has posted a new pic, and even responded to someone asking about his thoughts on Josh: "I think it's not my business and social media isn't a place for myself to talk about it."

[twinmama]

Yeah, I think attempting to reduce this to simple terms is unfair. I know a man who was arrogant and narcissistic and came across as very all-knowing.

But he was also very insecure and poorly educated on certain social norms and kind to small children and some animals.

People are rarely black and white. They're all sorts of shades of grays (greys) and have both good and bad traits.

Some of his "wants" make me sad because they seem like some of the most basic elements in an egalitarian relationship. Some just make me roll my eyes. I just don't think we know enough to say, "This was his motivation," with any confidence. Even if he said, "This was my motivation," it'd get some side-eye from me.

Agreed that a lot of his profile makes me sad too. Saying he would have sex before marriage to me is such clear evidence that they waited, married and realized they were just not compatible that way. IMO they have been married long enough now that if it was a temporary thing or a tides turn and sex drives change thing, it would have happened by now. It's sad that they have young children and a young marriage and it already seems over, but they'll probably stay in it because of their upbringing and beliefs.

He is gross, I'm not defending him at all, but it is sad to see what that lifestyle has done to him and his family. Even more sad is that they can all see it, but won't leave the lifestyle!

[Vio1et]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I am trying to keep up and am finding it impossible. Somebody commented on another website that there is a Facebook account under the email address Josh used on his AM account. I haven't had time to do much snooping yet to see if I can find anything interesting.

https:// www. facebook.com/joe.smithson.9028?fref=ts

Thanks for the link. I haven't looked at it thoroughly yet but the first thing I noticed is Joe Smithson has a "friend" named Joe Smithson. :shifty:

[blinni]

Wow, coming out of lurkdom to say that they just mentioned the AM-leak and Josh on BBC World News.. Having never seen any of the Duggars on my tv, I was caught off guard :shock:

[alphagirlzk]

I bet you anything they are giving Josh and Anna a re-play of their Pursuing a Dynamic Marriage talk they did for IBLP. It's a doozy.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I agree. I think the silence won't be long from everyone, especially since they have things scheduled.

I keep lurking Amy's Instagram because I know the silence is killing her lol. I saw that her fiance has posted a new pic, and even responded to someone asking about his thoughts on Josh: "I think it's not my business and social media isn't a place for myself to talk about it."

Well. Himself showed a lot of discretion right there. I'd say more but myself doesn't think I should.

[shatteredreality]

My heart hurts for Anna. My husband & I split up nearly 3 months ago and there are still tons of people that don't know. We aren't hiding it and we answer questions if asked but we haven't been pressured to share with the world. The first of Sept he is moving hours away so things will change then and I'll deal with questions as they come. I'm grateful for the 3 months that I've had to process things privately though. It allowed me and the kids to find a new normal without everyone watching and "advising".

Anna doesn't have that. Her worst nightmare is playing out on a national stage. The pressure must be crushing. No matter what she decides there are those that will judge her unkindly and loudly. Her choices will be ripped apart and thrown back at her by one side or the other. There is no "win" for her.

I really feel for this woman! First her husband is accused of child molestation & now adultry! And just after having her 4th child. She need to find a job & kick his butt to the curb! This is the result of JB&M crazy theories on sex & non-tolerance of others who are different. Karma sucks but poor Anna didn't sign up for this I'm sure & people would support her if she left the Duggar insanity behind!

[RabbitKM]

My favorite response to his OK Cupid questionnaire is "Can you run a mile with out stopping?" --"Yes, and more!" LOL we all saw that 5k episode right? :lol:

[ClaraOswin]

Good lord. My husband and I have a masters degrees and our poor dumb 3.5 year olds can't even read yet! What have I done!? They didn't even talk until like 2 years old. It's really surprising they don't fall down more. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I'd say Anna could teach preschoolers, but her lack of a degree in early childhood ed would hold her back.

Also, I have a little bit of FUCK YOU going on right now because having a speech delay or speech impediment does not mean you or your parents are DUMB. Jesus.

Thank you for this. Some people are truly ignorant when it comes to children and development.

[MalteseBaby]

No, it doesn't. It's your obvious and uncalled for contempt of Anna and the bizarre subsequent attempt to mount a high horse of support for her that diminishes who you are.

OK, this seems to be the majority's opinion, so be it. I'm an ass for wanting 4 small children to have a better life with a parent whom, as far as is known, hasn't hurt anyone else.

None of the Duggars are great or good people IMO. I'm not a leghumper. I don't like them. I've never said I like any of them, or any fundy.

As far as mounting a high horse of support for Anna, is there a better option? Just wondering what you think is preferable.

[alphagirlzk]

You know JB is telling Anna, look if my Mom could get passed our house being repossessed and the utilities getting cut off, then you can get past this too.

[martian]

I can answer this for ya, from my personal experience. Someone else may have a different experience, and if so, please feel free to chime in. I also don't want to have a discussion about my family or shortcomings, unless someone needs to PM me for support. Sorry for the wall of text- feel free to scroll on by.

My parents were the type who wanted to know every little detail about everything. They didn't respect my privacy. We had a housekeeper, too, who would turn everything she found over to my mom. Notes from my friends, journals I'd written, emails, phone calls...everything was fair game. And, it was all coupled with the need to have a perfect image all the time.

Beyond that, my mom joined our church and almost instantly, she fell hook, line, and sinker. As I remember it, suddenly church was so moving to her, so emotional, so important. She spent multiple hours a day, multiple days a week there. Jesus was suddenly her thing. And all I recognized as a child was that suddenly my mom was spending a lot more time at church than she was with me. Add that to being constantly dragged there and made to dress up/attend youth group with the Mean Girls of Jesus, and you had a recipe for resent.

That all was bearable up until a point, but when I finally had my rebellious stage of talking to people she didn't like (so bad, I know. Didn't even get to hang out with them, just pass notes and occasionally text), things got extreme. One night when she and my dad suspected (suspected!) I might have friends they didn't like, they stormed into my room and forced me to give them access to all of my accounts and show them how to look up the history on my computer. My dad went berserk. My phone, emails, live journal, myspace, Facebook, everything was constantly monitored from then on out. There was no discussing it, that's just the way it was. There was also no leeway for youthful mistakes- I was a young adult, dammit, and I would act like it! If I expressed discontent, well, that was on me because this was all my fault and couldn't I see how upset I'd made my parents?

So, I became a smooooooth operator. I mean smooth. Like, criminal organizations would probably want me on their team. I had a story or excuse or Plan B, C, and D for everything. Outwardly, I did everything I could to adhere. When I was with them, I judged and derided the very people I was hanging out with in secret. I would give speeches about how I was moved by a certain passage or how hard I was studying for a test. In reality, I did whatever I wanted and came back with one hell of an alibi. I don't even mean bad things, like drugs or drinking...I straight up mean talking on the phone for an hour too late, getting a message that was worded wrong, or even looking at someone on the way to pick up at school that they didn't know. I had to explain all of it. There were more than a few occasions where I missed out on something because the risk was just too big. It wasn't until I'd grown up and left for college that I realized that life didn't have to be a constant fight.

It's tiring, but as rough as growing up with them was, I still want to maintain a relationship with them. So call me a brainwashed idiot like Anna, but I can see why she's not leaving.

Thank you. My own family was violently abusive and controlling. I can find it in me today to feel grateful that the Internet didn't exist as an avenue of escape to be policed, and my parents had pretty much zero interest in my thoughts, so I was free to retreat internally. The way the Duggars (and also you, which I really hope is not hurtful to say) were raised fills me with equal parts horror and terror, because how would I have gotten through that? I respect your strength. At the time, I viewed my sister and brother as collaborators for going along to get along and then sneaking out at night (we were kept confined), but I hope I'm well past judging anybody for how they got through. I cut my dad off stone cold, too, and my sister tries to maintain a relationship. Everybody has to do what they need to piece themselves together whole.

I think it slips away from the forefront of people's minds the reality of how abusive the Duggar parents were and are - how abusive all the Gothardite families are, however cuddly or photogenic. They vary in levels of abuse, vary in how enthusiastically they abuse, I suppose, but it is an intrinsically abusive system that people are then prone to bringing trauma multipliers to such as the Pearl system of soul murder. Josh may well be a terrible person now and, for the sake of his own mental health if nothing else, he needs to be held and to hold himself accountable, but I just can't see his behavior in isolation. The way he was raised is bound to produce a lot of human train wrecks.

I have no idea what Anna should do to best help herself. If she is still fully, truly steeped in the ideology, she might even find a kind of Christ-like, martyrish exaltation in forgiving Josh. Or she's deeply miserable and struggles to see a way out. Or all of that together. Who the hell knows, really? Even the people who really know her best might not actually know her true thoughts and feelings, so what hope of offering a solution that works for her do a bunch of randoms on a message board have?

[refugee]

I would hope her parents would be rallying around Anna right now but I don't think they're very bright. I think they're the types that just believe and do what they're told and I doubt there's ever been an independent thought between the two of them. I have a feeling that when they agreed to let Anna marry Josh that they probably agreed to let Jim Bob have the control.

Sad to say, from what I've seen IRL, you're probably right. It's all about the "father's" vision, after all. So the sons, even when they marry, don't really become independent adults. They just become a subset of the Patriarch, which in this family is JB. The Patriarch holds the top umbrella of authority over everyone, and his sons hold their own umbrellas over their wives and children, but *under* the P's umbrella.

The scripture says something about a man leaving his mother and a woman leaving her home. So when a woman in that culture marries, she is transferred from her father's authority to her husband's. But just because the man left his mother, doesn't mean he's free from his father's influence and rule.

So if you let your daughter marry into one of these families, you lose her (if you ever had her in the first place), and she loses herself.

[hollywood]

I kind of remember an episode where after their honeymoon Josh said something about not seeing the big deal over having sex it was over so fast? Or it was something like that? Am I imagining this or?

It wasn't exactly that said just something similar but i can't remember.

[sawasdee]

OK, this seems to be the majority's opinion, so be it. I'm an ass for wanting 4 small children to have a better life with a parent whom, as far as is known, hasn't hurt anyone else.

None of the Duggars are great or good people IMO. I'm not a leghumper. I don't like them. I've never said I like any of them, or any fundy.

As far as mounting a high horse of support for Anna, is there a better option? Just wondering what you think is preferable.

No, it is your calling out of fundie women as weak if they don't leave an abusive relationship that has upset me. Your subsequent 'support' of Anna rang a bit hollow.

[FreeJesusFromFundies]

Also, I have a little bit of FUCK YOU going on right now because having a speech delay or speech impediment does not mean you or your parents are DUMB. Jesus.

:clap: Thank you. I know quite a few people on the spectrum that have speech delays, but have above average intelligence.

[refugee]

I bet you anything they are giving Josh and Anna a re-play of their Pursuing a Dynamic Marriage talk they did for IBLP. It's a doozy.

Do tell!

Is there a recap anywhere?

(Curious. I only know IBLP from the spillover into the culture we spent too many years immersed in. I'd love to be able to identify how IBLP teachings have infiltrated and influenced marriage advice in that (non-IBLP but heavily influenced) community.)

[browngrl]

A brief interlude to say:

Thanks to amandaaries for the link to the religious fundamentalism tumblr site. I just spent an hour browsing and very nearly had to call out for the rescue ferrets to come and save me.

…and back to snarking.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Where? Link please? :)

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3206320/Father-surprised-wife-news-pregnant-announced-suffered-miscarriage-paying-user-Ashley-Madison.html

[NewSeasonOfLife]

Derick posted a completely unrelated photo on Instagram earlier today - just a "countdown" to his wedding that he found on his phone that had counted backwards to how many days since they've been married and how good their life is.

Come to think of it... maybe it is related...

Regardless, it doesn't look like the social media silence will be quite what it was after Joshgate1.0

I feel like this time pretty much everyone in the family beyond J&A and (possibly) JB&M are going to be very "Not my drama" about this. They are going to at least act like they have nothing to do with this and have nothing to feel badly about, so it will be life as usual, at least to the rest of the world.

How that will affect life inside TTH, that may be another matter entirely - I don't know how JB&M could be any stricter with the teens and unmarried adults than they are now, but I could see them try. But elsewhere I think everyone who can will try their best to distance themselves as much as possible from Josh, and I would not be surprised to either see Josh take a long trip somewhere to do penance or for the others to take a lot of trips away with "godly" people far away from him over the next few months. If we see him photographed with anyone else before Christmas I'll be shocked.

[twoanddone]

:clap:

Josh is nasty, horny, little pig bastard. In my opinion he is sorry he was caught, not sorry for what he has done. Stay tuned folks, I bet there is more to come!!

Oh and BTW, I hope his dick shrivels up and drops off!!!

[damnliberal]

:clap: Thank you. I know quite a few people on the spectrum that have speech delays, but have above average intelligence.

Amen. I have a doctorate. Hubs has written 4 history books published by major publishers and has a master's degree. My first child is on the spectrum and had speech issues (barely spoke, but taught himself to read in time for his 4th birthday, and was coding in JAVA by 5.) My second child is also very bright but could care less about figuring out how to read yet as she just turned 3.

There are developmental milestones, but there is a range. No two children advance at the same rate. Comparisons are futile unless you and a developmental pediatrician are talking about your own child. It sounds like the OP has a very gifted child who probably has a vast flashcard collection. Congratufuckinglations.

While one's exposure to books, reading, age appropriate developmental toys, etc. are a start. Yes, the number of books in a child's home has been directly tied to their academic success. However, measuring children you you see in highly edited clips against your own clearly advanced child is not indicative of their development, nor is their development indicative of their parent's intelligence. Neither correlation nor causation. I'm sure every parent on the playground that you come into contact with loves your anecdotes of your advanced child. ::eyeroll::

ANYWHO....

Everything I have seen suggests to me that Anna is a loving mother who is deeply engaged with her children. I wish everyone had that, regardless of how their progress academically.