Free Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 2 - Merge

[FreeJesusFromFundies]

There's no evidence that Josh was bad to his kids. So there's no justification for giving full custody to Anna. And why would she want it, anyway? Wouldn't it mean that she'd give up her right to child support?

That's not how child support works. The less the non-custodial parent sees a child, generally, the more they pay. For instance, parents who have joint custody and see the children somewhat equally are more likely to share financial responsibility. A non-custodial parent that sees their children every other weekend will pay quite a bit to help chip in for the heavier financial burden being placed on the custodial parent.

Typically, the only way to forfeit child support is for a parent to have their rights terminated.

[usedbicycle]

Someone around here said that if Josh had been allowed to have normal hormonal feelings and normal dating experiences, he would not have acted out. He would have been that guy that we "all know" who never grows up, parties as if he's in college into his mid-life, and is always hanging around at the bar with women.

My thoughts exactly. If Josh weren't a child molester, I would actually feel *a little* sorry for him for being pushed way too young into marriage and fatherhood, a HUGE COMMITMENT, when we all know he got married to put his lego piece into Anna's. And even though he's one of those gross sleazy bro types that needs to sleep with a bunch of girls to feel manly, it's still something that non-religious people have the right to do. I had my proud slutty days and no regrets. I feel bad for all the Duggar kids who think heterosexual monogamy from a young age is their only option.

HOWEVER, I obviously can't feel entirely sorry for him because 1) he touched little girls, 2) if he really wanted to screw around secretly he could have lived in the shadows like John-David without hurting anyone, 3) he benefited immensely from his conservative christian image though TV $$$ and his 6 figure-salary lobbying job (Btw, I still can't believe he was making between 100 and 150 K for being on vacation half the time and gay-bashing the rest. I'm a inner-city teacher trying to make decent human beings out of my students and make barely a third of that. Barf.)

His parents and himself deserve all the backlash coming their way.

[Nowyn]

I think there is a big difference between reality and what Anna thinks. She grew up as ATI and was indoctrinated since childhood. I doubt leaving Josh is as instinctive to her than it would be for most cheated spouses. And even if it crossed her mind I don't think she has the slightest idea how to go about it. JB doesn't have any real authority to stop her, but that doesn't mean she knows that. Umbrella of protection, submitting to one's husband and carrying the responsibility of men's actions have been honed in her mind. Poor Anna. This is the biggest reason I hate fundamentalism. I don't care what anyone believes in as long as they realize it's their truth (although none fundamentalists do so) but when it limits choices their children can make it's abhorrent. I give a pass to the second etc. generation in many things. Josh has run over the line so far over that it's not even funny, but I still have compassion for others. I might criticize them as some of their choses are ridiculous, but I can see some root causes that makes me less mad than sad.

[DeFrauder]

Joint custody is the norm and the standard. It is granted in most divorces because that is what is thought to be best for the kids.

You can't seek full custody to punish an adulterer. Courts won't allow custody to be used as a punishment. The standard is always "what is best for the kids"

There's no evidence that Josh was bad to his kids. So there's no justification for giving full custody to Anna. And why would she want it, anyway? Wouldn't it mean that she'd give up her right to child support? And most importantly, if the kids love Josh, and he has been a reasonably good father, then joint custody is the best for the kids.

Now, it is likely, given the kids' young age, that they will live with Anna most of the time, and Josh will have visitation. But that has nothing to do with the custody situation. The custody will still be joint. When the kids are older (say 10-14), they can have a say about who they want to live with.

The reason why Anna would easily get full custody has nothing to do with JOsh's "affairs" with other women. It is not for "punishment" purposes. If Anna were to choose to seek full custody she would get it based on how crazy the Duggars are and the instability of their household.

You are confusing custody with access and visitation.

Full custody means the children reside with Anna and she has the sole right to make decisions for them about things like where they go to school and where the kids live and what they are allowed to do. Josh still has every right to see his kids. Often visitation resembles something like every second weekend and 1 evening per week plus a month or so during the summer. Or the custodial parent can say "you are welcome to pick up the kids any time --just give me a call and I will get them ready for you". It is extremely rare for the custodial parent to LEGALLY say "you can't see the kids ever".

Joint custody means that both parents have decision making rights. Often this includes splitting the time equally between the houses of the parents. 3 days at moms and 4 days at dads per week kind of thing (personally I find that very unstable). Or they have some other sort of time sharing schedule that suits them. This is a deal that really is only workable for parents that get along and are on the same page in terms of parenting--in my opinion. If the parents are still busy hating on each other, everybody, especially the kids, are gonna have a bad time.

No matter what the custody arrangement is--it does not have anything to do with Josh's responsibility to pay child support. Except sometimes a joint or shared custody arrangement where the kids spend 50% of time at each parent's house means that child support is not required (but I think that is super rare).

It doesn't have anything to do with Josh's responsibility to pay spousal support---if that is what is arranged.

Even if Josh cannot cough up the child support and goes into arrears---it does not remove his right to see his children.

And besides this, considering ALLLLL that we know about the Duggars, their buddies, about Josh, his problems, the way his family deals with problems etc etc---who would even want Josh and his parents to have unrestricted access to ANY children???

Are far as I am concerned, all the minor Duggar kids should have been apprehended already. CPS should have swooped in to pick up the kids the night M&JB went on Fox News Channel to tell the world they lock their kids up at night to safeguard against sexual abuse.

[meep]

As much as I would love to believe Anna would leave, I don't believe she ever will. I think she genuinely loves her kids (obviously) and the way she was raised, a "broken home" is one of the worst things you can do for your children.

[nelliebelle1197]

The reason why Anna would easily get full custody has nothing to do with JOsh's "affairs" with other women. It is not for "punishment" purposes. If Anna were to choose to seek full custody she would get it based on how crazy the Duggars are and the instability of their household.

You are confusing custody with access and visitation.

Full custody means the children reside with Anna and she has the sole right to make decisions for them about things like where they go to school and where the kids live and what they are allowed to do. Josh still has every right to see his kids. Often visitation resembles something like every second weekend and 1 evening per week plus a month or so during the summer. Or the custodial parent can say "you are welcome to pick up the kids any time --just give me a call and I will get them ready for you". It is extremely rare for the custodial parent to LEGALLY say "you can't see the kids ever".

Joint custody means that both parents have decision making rights. Often this includes splitting the time equally between the houses of the parents. 3 days at moms and 4 days at dads per week kind of thing (personally I find that very unstable). Or they have some other sort of time sharing schedule that suits them. This is a deal that really is only workable for parents that get along and are on the same page in terms of parenting--in my opinion. If the parents are still busy hating on each other, everybody, especially the kids, are gonna have a bad time.

No matter what the custody arrangement is--it does not have anything to do with Josh's responsibility to pay child support. Except sometimes a joint or shared custody arrangement where the kids spend 50% of time at each parent's house means that child support is not required (but I think that is super rare).

It doesn't have anything to do with Josh's responsibility to pay spousal support---if that is what is arranged.

Even if Josh cannot cough up the child support and goes into arrears---it does not remove his right to see his children.

And besides this, considering ALLLLL that we know about the Duggars, their buddies, about Josh, his problems, the way his family deals with problems etc etc---who would even want Josh and his parents to have unrestricted access to ANY children???

Are far as I am concerned, all the minor Duggar kids should have been apprehended already. CPS should have swooped in to pick up the kids the night M&JB went on Fox News Channel to tell the world they lock their kids up at night to safeguard against sexual abuse.

No. Please stop internet lawyering. You really don't know what you are talking about. Your opinions of the stability of the Duggars have nothing to do with reality.

[elleighjae]

I hope more than anything, more than the scandal, the religion, the money, the pain, above all else, that someone Anna loves and trusts has taken her aside and told her that none of this is her fault.

[Whipple]

I am hoping (and betting) that Anna will summon the courage to leave. The situation is different from the normal fundie betrayal in that the pressure on her is much greater. She may think that she can handle the fryer and stay with Josh but in reality she has to deal with the fame and infamy as well as the betrayal and Josh's fall from grace. Being on a reality show has magnified the families narcissism. She is in a pressure cooker, events are still unfolding what seems like real time, she has no one to turn to for support except the public, and she has a one month old baby to take care of. No human being can or should withstand that kind of pressure. For these reasons, I believe that if she doesn't leave now, she will within a few years--when she realizes that no amount of prayer is going to change her husband or make things better. At some point, Anna may just have a breakdown that will force her to leave, especially if she finds herself circling the drain right along with Josh. Something will have to give with these two.

Hopefully, if Josh doesn't leave, she will choose to leave for her survival and the survival of her children, even if that means divorce.

And another thing: What no one outside of FJ has noted, is that it has been apparent to us for years that Josh has zero respect for Anna. After he went to DC he probably got some coaching and learned to go underground with the abuse but in those earlier episodes, Josh treated Anna like a slave/doormat and appeared bored with her. There was a thread years ago that he may end up being physically abusive and or that he may end up cheating on her. It seemed at the time like physical abuse was more likely than the cheating. (It was that bad, and we thought she might leave back then.)

If Josh continues to be abusive and dismissive of Anna on top of the adultery, it may be too much for her to bear. She is only human and she can only stuff her emotions down so far until they pop up in some really damaging way. We have always wondered when Michelle would crack and now I see Anna as another one who may fall apart. I hope she knows she has power and that she will survive.

God knows she isn't going to get any support from her parents. The lucky thing is that she only has four kids. I've known divorcees with four kids and it's hard but they have managed okay. Better than ten kids, poverty, and a pop-up tent. Most encouraging thing: She hasn't made a statement.

[prayawaythefundie]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. Hi y'all ;)

I have been wondering for the time it took to activate my account: Is keeping it sweet Anna's only option if she stays? I'm pretty sure she won't leave... for now. She might consider staying with Josh but on her terms. No gazing at him adoringly any more. No beeing available for him. No more kids. Sending the kids to school and finding something she really enjoys. Doesn't have to be a real job, could be a hobby. He would either agree with those terms and deal with the fact that he is no longer the headship or he would leave. If so, fine, then he's the sinner for leaving, not her. And it's not like it would be big loss for her.

I sure would stop being the helpmeet if I were her. I would even make him suffer a little. Then again, I wasn't raised to believe that my only worth as a woman is praying for and popping out more children :angry-banghead:

Edited for riffle

[HighlandCow]

On the David loves Priscilla blog, they show a family trip where the Kellers have gone to "support" Anna and Josh. This happens to be Ma and Pa Kellers 35th wedding anniversary, an opportunity to beat Anna over the head with biblical marriage.

They are there to keep her in line, and in her marriage.

[ClaraOswin]

On the David loves Priscilla blog, they show a family trip where the Kellers have gone to "support" Anna and Josh. This happens to be Ma and Pa Kellers 35th wedding anniversary, an opportunity to beat Anna over the head with biblical marriage.

They are there to keep her in line, and in her marriage.

Are you talking about the one from August 11th? Wasn't that before the Ashley Madison story broke?

[Seren Ann]

Are you talking about the one from August 11th? Wasn't that before the Ashley Madison story broke?

Yes, that visit was in July, way before the most recent mess came to light.

[justoneoftwo]

Joint custody is the norm and the standard. It is granted in most divorces because that is what is thought to be best for the kids.

You can't seek full custody to punish an adulterer. Courts won't allow custody to be used as a punishment. The standard is always "what is best for the kids"

There's no evidence that Josh was bad to his kids. So there's no justification for giving full custody to Anna. And why would she want it, anyway? Wouldn't it mean that she'd give up her right to child support? And most importantly, if the kids love Josh, and he has been a reasonably good father, then joint custody is the best for the kids.

Now, it is likely, given the kids' young age, that they will live with Anna most of the time, and Josh will have visitation. But that has nothing to do with the custody situation. The custody will still be joint. When the kids are older (say 10-14), they can have a say about who they want to live with.

It does not mean you give up your right to child support. If Josh only has visitation that is not joint custody. If that were the case she would actually get more child support because the kids would be with her more of the time (it is assumed the parent with custody is primarily paying for the kids while they are in that parent's custody, its part of the calculation). Visitation has no impact on having to pay child support. When the kids are older they do get a say, but it is not final and the courts regularly ignore what the kids say. They would get a lawyer to represent their interests at almost any age but this lawyer does not have to do what they want. It is about what the judge thinks is in their best interest, not what a child thinks is in their best interest.

[justoneoftwo]

The reason why Anna would easily get full custody has nothing to do with JOsh's "affairs" with other women. It is not for "punishment" purposes. If Anna were to choose to seek full custody she would get it based on how crazy the Duggars are and the instability of their household.

You are confusing custody with access and visitation.

Full custody means the children reside with Anna and she has the sole right to make decisions for them about things like where they go to school and where the kids live and what they are allowed to do. Josh still has every right to see his kids. Often visitation resembles something like every second weekend and 1 evening per week plus a month or so during the summer. Or the custodial parent can say "you are welcome to pick up the kids any time --just give me a call and I will get them ready for you". It is extremely rare for the custodial parent to LEGALLY say "you can't see the kids ever".

Joint custody means that both parents have decision making rights. Often this includes splitting the time equally between the houses of the parents. 3 days at moms and 4 days at dads per week kind of thing (personally I find that very unstable). Or they have some other sort of time sharing schedule that suits them. This is a deal that really is only workable for parents that get along and are on the same page in terms of parenting--in my opinion. If the parents are still busy hating on each other, everybody, especially the kids, are gonna have a bad time.

No matter what the custody arrangement is--it does not have anything to do with Josh's responsibility to pay child support. Except sometimes a joint or shared custody arrangement where the kids spend 50% of time at each parent's house means that child support is not required (but I think that is super rare).

It doesn't have anything to do with Josh's responsibility to pay spousal support---if that is what is arranged.

Even if Josh cannot cough up the child support and goes into arrears---it does not remove his right to see his children.

And besides this, considering ALLLLL that we know about the Duggars, their buddies, about Josh, his problems, the way his family deals with problems etc etc---who would even want Josh and his parents to have unrestricted access to ANY children???

Are far as I am concerned, all the minor Duggar kids should have been apprehended already. CPS should have swooped in to pick up the kids the night M&JB went on Fox News Channel to tell the world they lock their kids up at night to safeguard against sexual abuse.

You are confusing custody with visitation. Generally full custody means the kids don't spend nights with the other parent. Joint custody does not have to be 50%, in general its not. Removing kids is a huge deal, you need extreme situations and even then they are allowed to try to fix it. Being what you think (or we all think) is a bad parent with bad values will not do it.

[alphagirlzk]

Has anyone read this article? It talks about ATI and the teachings about STD's. Here is part of the article.

Well it was kind of two different teachings that went together. One was an STD teaching that basically said you can’t get an STD from your wife; as long as you’re in a godly, monogamous relationship and nobody cheats, then you can’t get an STD. It’s just going to completely ignore if these people would have had any contact with humanity before they met each other because presumably they are virgins. But in addition, there’s this idea of immunity, that when a husband and a wife have monogamous relations for a long time, the wife develops an immunity to a natural reaction to semen. If you are promiscuous, you will ruin this immunity and get cancer. A lot of ATI’s ideas about disease and spirituality are that it’s kind of two sides of the same coin. Your spiritual problems cause your physical problems. They believe cancer is a punitive condition for a lot of people, that God will curse you will cancer. To tie it all together, their big thing was that God and the Bible and fundamentalism could be applied to every situation. Every situation in life is black and white and there is something God has to say about it.

Here is the article site:salon.com/2015/06/08/a_former_homeschooler_on_the_duggar_familys_horrifying_fundamentalist_education_it%E2%80%99s_literal_rape_culture/

[CorruptionInc.]

Anna wont leave her shithead of a husband. She'll stay, because that's what she has to do. After all, it's her fault that he cheated.

This cult just blows up any chance of female rights. It is NOT Anna's fault he cheated. Her husband is a piece of shit, plain and simple. His "rehab" won't work.

As much as we wish she'd leave, it just doesn't work that way. :cry:

If only JB & Mullet could be arrested for the crap they have soaked their kids in.

Edited for bad iPad grammar!

[withaj]

Now that we know Josh is out of commission for the foreseeable future... anyone want to hazard a guess which sister mom is moving in to the Siloam Springs house to help Anna out?

I would guess Joy, but of course she's off bringing Catholic heathens to Jesus with the Dillards. Hannie's just 9. So I guess Jana or Jinger are the only available candidates. Can the TTH survive without Jana?? I know she's helped out Josh and Anna with the kids before (that whole RV trip where she was off-camera and unacknowledged, for one). Come to think of it, I wonder if the reason she's been the one to help them out in the past is because she wasn't one of Josh's victims.

ETA I do hope that whoever it is can be some comfort to Anna. I wish for her a safe space to express real emotions, though I know that's basically unprecedented in Duggarland and is probably not something that would occur to her to take advantage of, anyway.

[August]

Joint custody is the norm and the standard. It is granted in most divorces because that is what is thought to be best for the kids.

You can't seek full custody to punish an adulterer. Courts won't allow custody to be used as a punishment. The standard is always "what is best for the kids"

There's no evidence that Josh was bad to his kids. So there's no justification for giving full custody to Anna. And why would she want it, anyway? Wouldn't it mean that she'd give up her right to child support? And most importantly, if the kids love Josh, and he has been a reasonably good father, then joint custody is the best for the kids.

Now, it is likely, given the kids' young age, that they will live with Anna most of the time, and Josh will have visitation. But that has nothing to do with the custody situation. The custody will still be joint. When the kids are older (say 10-14), they can have a say about who they want to live with.

What's the word for unequal split visitation? Someone was telling me the other day that the trend is now away from 50/50, and I wanted to see if that's widespread and what sort of things they arrange, but have no idea what to google. They seemed to think that even every weekend with Dad, how it was in the 80s, is not preferred.

[Ellie]

I can't help feeling sorry for Anna. She has now to deal with four children including a very small one, the two oldest being able to ask where is dad and why doesn't come back home and what is he doing now. I wouldn't be her when explaining that he will be away for a long time but is still loving them. As for explaining he has gone into rehab, what is rehab and why he does need it ... If they explain the kids dad is ill, that could lead to funny questions next time Josh will see his children. I hope the M children will be able to escape what their parents have gone through and will grow into plesant children with their own personalities, not copycats.

[Marissap]

What's the word for unequal split visitation? Someone was telling me the other day that the trend is now away from 50/50, and I wanted to see if that's widespread and what sort of things they arrange, but have no idea what to google. They seemed to think that even every weekend with Dad, how it was in the 80s, is not preferred.

Taking care of a newborn is hard enough Then throw in 3 other very young children and (for me) it would be impossible. I do hope she gets help but I hope it's supportive and not just nonsense. I know in dreaming but if jinger or Jana came and they could emotionally support eachother that would be for the best.

[luv2laugh]

Guys read the bottom of this article. The source revealed Anna's sister Rebecca is going through a divorce http://www.people.com/people/mobile/art ... 95,00.html

[Pretzel]

Guys read the bottom of this article. The source revealed Anna's sister Rebecca is going through a divorce http://www.people.com/people/mobile/art ... 95,00.html

I can't imagine that this is true, but I'm sorry if it is.

[VelociRapture]

I can't help feeling sorry for Anna. She has now to deal with four children including a very small one, the two oldest being able to ask where is dad and why doesn't come back home and what is he doing now. I wouldn't be her when explaining that he will be away for a long time but is still loving them. As for explaining he has gone into rehab, what is rehab and why he does need it ... If they explain the kids dad is ill, that could lead to funny questions next time Josh will see his children. I hope the M children will be able to escape what their parents have gone through and will grow into plesant children with their own personalities, not copycats.

Her best bet would be age-appropriate honesty. For instance:

- Tell Mack and Michael that Daddy isn't feeling like himself lately and had to go away for a bit to feel better. He misses everyone a lot, loves them all, and is doing his best to feel better again. That he will be back soon and will be all better! Josh and Anna can deal with any funny questions the kids have when he gets back - they appear to have a bit of time to figure out appropriate answers right now.

Note: The important thing is that the kids keep up a normal schedule right now, Anna gets emotional support that she needs, and the kids are reassured that Dad is coming home again. I'm not saying that any of this will actually happen. But it's possible this is how Anna and the Duggars are viewing the situation and that they honestly believe he'll come back all better.

[justoneoftwo]

What's the word for unequal split visitation? Someone was telling me the other day that the trend is now away from 50/50, and I wanted to see if that's widespread and what sort of things they arrange, but have no idea what to google. They seemed to think that even every weekend with Dad, how it was in the 80s, is not preferred.

Joint custody is now generally not 50/50. In my state it is joint custody if the parent with less time gets 3 days a week and holidays along with the right to make some decisions.

[Ellie]

Her best bet would be age-appropriate honesty. For instance:

- Tell Mack and Michael that Daddy isn't feeling like himself lately and had to go away for a bit to feel better. He misses everyone a lot, loves them all, and is doing his best to feel better again. That he will be back soon and will be all better! Josh and Anna can deal with any funny questions the kids have when he gets back - they appear to have a bit of time to figure out appropriate answers right now.

Note: The important thing is that the kids keep up a normal schedule right now, Anna gets emotional support that she needs, and the kids are reassured that Dad is coming home again. I'm not saying that any of this will actually happen. But it's possible this is how Anna and the Duggars are viewing the situation and that they honestly believe he'll come back all better.

Yes, that would be a good way to deal with this whole mess.

I really hope Anna will get some true help.

A woman I met years ago had long been a Society of St. Pius X faithful (the most fundie catholic society). She said in the women-only meetings, many women complained about having given birth to their children to closely or wanting to be a little less tired, but that could be said to other women, never to the priests or the husbands. Finally, this woman left, get divorced and remarried. She feels far better know, for she met people who truely helped her. I wish Anna will have a place to say how she really feels. I guess she may be like these SSPX women : have a lot of her own feelings and not being allowed to express it, while giving a perfect-christian-spouse look to everybody.