Josh Duggar, Admitted Child Molester - Part 9

[Snarkle Motion]

I really despise that narrative--that victims of a abuse become abusers. A small minority of abused people turn into abusers. It is outrageous that people believe that victims go on to hurt other people. It victimizes the victims further.

Personally, I blame that show "Criminal Minds" as every episode is about profiling some monstrous criminal as someone who suffered abuse as a child.

The reality is that there are all kinds of heinous monsters that came from wonderful homes and there are all kinds of sweet, compassionate people who were horribly abused, but would never hurt anyone.

And as for protecting future victims of abuse--by SoHiDaisy's logic, victims should be executed before they turn into monsters! I am surprised Gothard hasn't come up with that since he already believes that victims cause their own abuse!

I'm too lazy to look up citations right now but I do believe there is truth to this. The vast majority of people who experience abuse will NOT become abusers. But those who do become abusers are more likely to have experienced abuse. It does not mean that victims will become abusers - there are likely lots of risk factors at work. It just means that experiencing abuse may put someone at greater risk to become an abuser if other risk factors are also in play. Its like saying if you have XYZ risk factors and someone does this terrible thing to you as a child you may learn to repeat those acts. But someone without XYZ risk factors would never do that if they were abused.

Hope that made sense and was sensitive since its late. No one deserves to be blamed as future monster because they suffered abuse. But rather I think this is a way of humanizing the perpetrator - its likely that this behavior was learned or modeled in someway to them. Basically, we need to stop the cycle of abuse and not just condemn the evil "monsters" who may have also been victims themselves and part of larger system of abuse. Its not about rooting out "monsters" but stopping the cycle and starting healing. Did that make sense? I'm too tired. I hope so. Just saying that in cases like this one I do think Josh - whether or not he was also abused - was still a child and also a victim in some ways although clearly not in the same way as his victims.

[DeFrauder]

Someone raped me. He has two children, whom he neglects terribly. He's barely their father anyway so who cares. I wouldn't feel sad if he killed himself. Dare I say, I'd be delighted. The only shame there would be that I didn't get to kill him. I wouldn't feel sad for his kids. This was nearly two years ago so definitely still not over it.

However, I know this guy personally, and I can safely say that he is a bad person. He's an abusive person. He physically attacked me multiple times and threatened me with death on so many occasions that I couldn't count. Thank god abortion is legal and free here, because all this guy wanted to do was impregnate me. He was dead set on me having his baby (that's how he had two kids!). Anyway, details don't matter, but my point is that he is truly a dangerous person. If he died - no loss! In fact, a victory.

So... I kind of understand what they were saying. I don't think it's unusual to wish death on someone who abused you, or someone who you know abused other people. It may not be rational, but it's a reaction to strong feelings. I can't 100% support what that person said for obvious reasons, but I understand the thought process. None of us know Josh personally, and we can't really know if he is just a twisted product of having JB+M as parents or if he's truly a sociopathic person. We don't know.

I gave you a like--not because I endorse suicide for any reason, but because I have empathy for your pain. Perhaps the OP was speaking from a place of pain, as well. Prior to healing, if it ever truly comes, we can have a lot of scary, vicious thoughts about our abusers.

This horrific Duggar issue is triggering a lot of people and probably even some people who thought they had put their abuse behind them. I know that in my own experience, I have been struggling lately because for the last year I have been preparing to perform some academic research in a certain town. By coincidence, this town is RUMOURED to be where my former abuser now lives. I have not seen my abuser in many, many years and I do not even know if she really lives there. All kinds of anger that I thought I had forgotten about is welling up inside of me. I have had nightmares (and, regrettably, some day dreams) of seeing her there in that town, confronting her and beating the crap out of her just to make up for the fact that she never suffered a single consequence for her actions. (I am a woman, too). I, of course, will not act out these PTSD revenge fantasies, and am displeased with myself that I would have them at all.

However, it is common to indulge in revenge fantasies--although it is never productive. The truth is that my abuser is mentally ill. Neither revenge nor justice would make a difference.

[DeFrauder]

I'm too lazy to look up citations right now but I do believe there is truth to this. The vast majority of people who experience abuse will NOT become abusers. But those who do become abusers are more likely to have experienced abuse. It does not mean that victims will become abusers - there are likely lots of risk factors at work. It just means that experiencing abuse may put someone at greater risk to become an abuser if other risk factors are also in play. Its like saying if you have XYZ risk factors and someone does this terrible thing to you as a child you may learn to repeat those acts. But someone without XYZ risk factors would never do that if they were abused.

Hope that made sense and was sensitive since its late. No one deserves to be blamed as future monster because they suffered abuse. But rather I think this is a way of humanizing the perpetrator - its likely that this behavior was learned or modeled in someway to them. Basically, we need to stop the cycle of abuse and not just condemn the evil "monsters" who may have also been victims themselves and part of larger system of abuse. Its not about rooting out "monsters" but stopping the cycle and starting healing. Did that make sense? I'm too tired. I hope so. Just saying that in cases like this one I do think Josh - whether or not he was also abused - was still a child and also a victim in some ways although clearly not in the same way as his victims.

Yes, I completely agree.

Although, it is really difficult to obtain reliable stats on the issue due to the methodological difficulties in targeting an appropriate sample. We only know about the abusers that have been caught, and the abused that get caught later for abusing others. Missing from the data are all the people that were abusers who did not get caught and the abused that never reported their abuse to the authorities (a really huge number, they say).

It reminds me of the purebred vs mutt dog debate. You will hear a lot of people insisting that mutts are healthier and more intelligent than purebred dogs. That might be the case, but there is only anecdotal evidence to support this belief. While there are sufficient numbers of registered purebred dogs with detailed information on their health and pedigrees---there is nothing equivalent in regards to mutts. Until someone does a longitudinal study on the health and genetic makeup of mutts (and to my knowledge there has never been one), we have no evidence that mutts are healthier or less healthy than purebreds.

[bionicmlle]

I trimmed your post because it was, quite frankly extremely disturbing and disgusting - not to mention the Mods have asked us not to quote those portions to make things easier for them.

That said:

What the fuck is wrong with you? What the fuck makes you think that Josh doing something like that would benefit anyone? He has a pregnant wife and three young children who seem to adore him - did you pause to think of them before writing that shit? Do you really think Josh dying would be good for them in any way at all?

There must be something really fucking wrong with you if you honestly believe what you wrote. You're absolutely disgusting.

Just going to tack on to this to say to SoHiDaisy: What the everloving fuck? Seriously? Suicide is one of the most absolutely damaging and devastating things that can happen to a family - it leaves so many ripples of unanswered questions, guilt and high risk of more suicides. It is tragic. Saying something like you said, even on a snark board, is ignorant.

Further, to you and others who continue to lambast Josh with the label of "Child Molester" and "Pedophile" - I still feel this is inappropriate. There are no reports that have been released regarding any psychiatric or psychological evaluations nor is he registered with a sex offender registry. I think we can all agree that his, and his parents actions around his behaviors as a teen, were completely inappropriate. We can probably also agree that they should not have a show. How their family is managed NOW is up to CPS, not public opinion.

[jendall]

Just going to tack on to this to say to SoHiDaisy: What the everloving fuck? Seriously? Suicide is one of the most absolutely damaging and devastating things that can happen to a family - it leaves so many ripples of unanswered questions, guilt and high risk of more suicides. It is tragic. Saying something like you said, even on a snark board, is ignorant.

Further, to you and others who continue to lambast Josh with the label of "Child Molester" and "Pedophile" - I still feel this is inappropriate. There are no reports that have been released regarding any psychiatric or psychological evaluations nor is he registered with a sex offender registry. I think we can all agree that his, and his parents actions around his behaviors as a teen, were completely inappropriate. We can probably also agree that they should not have a show. How their family is managed NOW is up to CPS, not public opinion.

Sorry, but I thought FJ was about being free to give thoughts on topics without censure and scolding.

Are there morality police here that find it their job to impose self-determined ethics?

If so, then we're no better nor different than the Fundimentalists.

.

[Kak]

Sorry, but I thought FJ was about being free to give thoughts on topics without censure and scolding.

Are there morality police here that find it their job to impose self-determined ethics?

If so, then we're no better nor different than the Fundimentalists.

.

Yes, there is censure and scolding. Sorry.

FJ is fairly lenient, but there are some topics which cause widespread offence and some which aren't allowed. Differences of opinion are debated, often heatedly. Rule breaking is not tolerated by posters or mods.

There are site rules which should clarify things. I think the fact that so many found the latest contentious post about Josh so offensive is a realistic representation of the mood and culture here.

[bionicmlle]

Sorry, but I thought FJ was about being free to give thoughts on topics without censure and scolding.

Are there morality police here that find it their job to impose self-determined ethics?

If so, then we're no better nor different than the Fundimentalists.

.

If you think that giving some feedback to that poster about her thoughts on suicide had a "scolding" tone, I'd suggest you keep reading more threads (maybe venture out of the Duggar threads). Yes, I have some incredibly strong feelings about suicide. So should you.

eta: As far as my second paragraph - it's fine to disagree with me. That's what the board is about - discussion. Not everyone is going to agree. And. that's. okay. (And that's why I'm NOT like the fundamentalist Christians.)

[drivingmishcrazy]

What the ever loving fuck?

This is why I bowed out of this conversation like a thread ago, because certain aspects were getting out of control.

I would not wish suicide on anyone, not even a shitty person like Josh. The absolute fucking hell you have to be living, mentally and emotionally, is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. Have I wanted to exact revenge on people in my life I later found out were abusers? Sure, though I would never act on it, both because it would not help those they abused and because they don't deserve to become a victim in their own mind. Should the ex-coworker who was harassing me sexually hope I never catch him at it with someone else? Hell yes, I'm five feet one inch and could still hand him his own ass on a silver platter. Would I ever wish death or suicide on the little toad? No. That's fucking cruel, crueler than I am, and I can be pretty cruel.

Sorry for adding fuel to the fire, but that pissed me off. Wishing that shit on anyone is not cool.

[VelociRapture]

Sorry, but I thought FJ was about being free to give thoughts on topics without censure and scolding.

Are there morality police here that find it their job to impose self-determined ethics?

If so, then we're no better nor different than the Fundimentalists.

.

Having the freedom to say whatever you want does not mean you are free of the consequences that may result. That poster was free to write the shitty things they did - we are free to call them out for being a complete asshole. Big difference between that and the Fundies who actually do censor conversations they don't agree with.

We have very few rules here at FJ because the Mods wanted to create an environment where people could talk freely - part of that means we self-police and call each other out on our bullshit. Obviously a lot of people took issue with what that poster said and, to be honest, the system we have here worked well in this instance.

[Four is Enough]

Further, to you and others who continue to lambast Josh with the label of "Child Molester" and "Pedophile" - I still feel this is inappropriate. There are no reports that have been released regarding any psychiatric or psychological evaluations nor is he registered with a sex offender registry. I think we can all agree that his, and his parents actions around his behaviors as a teen, were completely inappropriate. We can probably also agree that they should not have a show. How their family is managed NOW is up to CPS, not public opinion.

Bionicmlle, you may have missed the earlier discussion about my own child and his treatment for molesting young children. The offenses happened when my child was 15, not 14, as Josh was. He was discovered and went through treatment. During that treatment, and even before, He had to state out loud that he molested those children. His counselors used those words. "Sex offender" "Child molester" and mentioned "pedophilic" tendencies. There were psychological tests late in the treatment, but only to see if his mindset was different than at the beginning of treatment.

So, yes. I feel it entirely appropriate to call Josh both a sex offender AND a child molester. Pedophile? Possibly. Furthermore, I feel his non-treatment only compounded the possibility that he might still re-offend. It was made completely clear to us that it is the mark of pedophiles to choose not only the ages of the victims (much younger than the offender's) but also the number. (not just one)

Not every sex offender is on a registry. Sex offenses are categorized in levels, and only higher level offenders normally have to register. Thanks to my child's completing his treatment, and getting successfully through therapy, he did not have to register, and they feel his possibility of re-offending is low. They told us they never say a person is "cured" but only that the possibility of re-offending is high or low.

I feel Josh is in a bad situation and he may never get out of it. I wish he'd stop hiding and get some real counseling, and I wish the girls would, too.

[sockinshoe]

So, I've kind of been a little haunted by the "parents aren't mandatory reporters" remark. :ew: :evil-eye:

But wouldn't the Duggars be mandatory reporters as "teachers" to their children, since they homeschool? Is there any way anything could happen to them through that?

[LilahBelle]

So, I've kind of been a little haunted by the "parents aren't mandatory reporters" remark. :ew: :evil-eye:

But wouldn't the Duggars be mandatory reporters as "teachers" to their children, since they homeschool? Is there any way anything could happen to them through that?

They have probably escaped the mandatory reporting requirements through a loophole. But this case is a good reason for changing the laws - if you homeschool you are an "educator" under mandatory reporting laws. If you don't take your kids to the doctor, you are the "physician" under mandatory reporting laws, etc.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sorry, but I thought FJ was about being free to give thoughts on topics without censure and scolding.

Are there morality police here that find it their job to impose self-determined ethics?

If so, then we're no better nor different than the Fundimentalists.

.

So give me a moment here. You feel that people expressing their horror/ displeasure at a human being encouraging another human being to kill himself and offering to provide the tools to do so impinges on your rights to post your thoughts? That these people expressing their horror/displeasure at said encouragement to commit suicide.....are morality police with self determined ethics?

I'm assuming therefore your ethics dictate its hunky dory to tell somebody to kill themselves and offer the means. Because damn it you don't like being scolded. I mean that's the picture you are painting ...... Which lets face it makes it kind of a necessity to have decent people around to point this out. I can only imagine you are also this way in real life because you know, although your keyboard and anonymity lend you great bravery, these are real people and words as the saying goes.... Have meaning.

As for the fundie comment. It's tiresome lately how some posters are using But fundamentalism... But patriarchy.... to basically just say the most ignorant and offensive thoughts that pop into their heads.

There is plenty to snark on without stooping to those levels.

[southernfriedwriter]

It's so hard to keep up with all these posts, especially since I've been gone and away from the computer. This might have already been posted but several versions of it caught my eye.

Jim Bob And Michelle Duggar More Worried About Josh Being Suicidal Than About Jill And Jessa's Feelings Amid Scandal?

Josh Duggar Suicidal?: Family Fears For Him After Molestation Scandal

Of course, consider the source. But I've read several articles citing Josh is in seclusion and is depressed and the family worries he'll do something drastic.

As much as I dislike the family for all their hypocrisy, I surely wouldn't wish this on them on top of everything else.

[sockinshoe]

This thought just hit me: Josh's behaviour is why his sisters do all the work.

Think of it this way: When Josh was discovered, all the Howlers (except maybe Jackson) had been born. They were "safe" with their male buddies, but then the Lost Girls started. Now, Michelle "couldn't" hand off her weaned baby girls to their bigger brothers, so the sisters had to step in. In 14 Kids and Whatever, Josh is shown as one of the Howlers' buddies, so we know that boys could be buddies too. Following the birth of the Lost Girls, the girls took over buddying and buddy teams were formed. As for the house work, that too was once shared more or less equally. Perhaps, again, JB & M thought it was "safer" to have "girl" jurisdictions and "boy" jurisdictions.

This disgusts me all over again. Not only do you fail your daughters (and your son) by getting nobody the treatment they need, you punish your daughters by making them do all the chores and childcare. Disgusting.

[isarhenne]

I'm sorry if someone already posted a similar thing (I didn't have the time to read through all the parts of the thread) but I still wanted to write something about the molestation.

Josh was 14 at the time but it went on over months if not years and on several occasions, right?

I just thought that the way Josh did it, it was not curiosity! If you are curious about something you do it once!! What was going on in Josh's case was lust. If you are lusting after someone or something then you repeat it and you want to do it again! So in my opinion Josh was not only curious if it was several girls on several occasions, but he was lusting after his sisters!

Second (and I'm asking all the straight men here and lesbians): Who were you lusting after when you were 14 years old and hitting puberty? Probably not 5 year old girls!!!!! But more like 14 and probably older, grown women in playboy magazine!

Josh has a serious problem. I sincerely hope he gets REAL psychological help!

But still I have to cut him some slack (I don't know I phrased that right): He does seem to be intelligent and sensitive and does seem to know that what he did was wrong. I don't think Josh will do it to his own daughters but if he really is lusting after younger kids ( which would not be his fault, but just a situation) then he should get help.

[DeFrauder]

So, I've kind of been a little haunted by the "parents aren't mandatory reporters" remark. :ew: :evil-eye:

But wouldn't the Duggars be mandatory reporters as "teachers" to their children, since they homeschool? Is there any way anything could happen to them through that?

This is a really good point. Homeschooled children are particularly vulnerable to abuse and in my opinion there should be more effective oversight of homeschool parents. If governments are not willing to invest in homeschool oversight, then they should make it illegal to homeschool. I say this because homeschooling can be thought of as a form of abuse in itself. Home schooled children are being prevented from obtaining the universal public education available to all citizens. Their parents are purposely thwarting the education of their children with the specific intent to prevent them from socialization within the mainstream culture. If the kids were just doing "correspondence" at home using the approved state curriculum it would be one thing, but the Duggars are teaching their children false information and sheltering them from exposure to factual information.

[DeFrauder]

I'm sorry if someone already posted a similar thing (I didn't have the time to read through all the parts of the thread) but I still wanted to write something about the molestation.

Josh was 14 at the time but it went on over months if not years and on several occasions, right?

I just thought that the way Josh did it, it was not curiosity! If you are curious about something you do it once!! What was going on in Josh's case was lust. If you are lusting after someone or something then you repeat it and you want to do it again! So in my opinion Josh was not only curious if it was several girls on several occasions, but he was lusting after his sisters!

Second (and I'm asking all the straight men here and lesbians): Who were you lusting after when you were 14 years old and hitting puberty? Probably not 5 year old girls!!!!! But more like 14 and probably older, grown women in playboy magazine!

Josh has a serious problem. I sincerely hope he gets REAL psychological help!

But still I have to cut him some slack (I don't know I phrased that right): He does seem to be intelligent and sensitive and does seem to know that what he did was wrong. I don't think Josh will do it to his own daughters but if he really is lusting after younger kids ( which would not be his fault, but just a situation) then he should get help.

We don't know what Josh will do or has done in regards to other children. But I agree with everything else you have said. What Josh did is not the norm and it was incredibly more serious than a lot of people understand. If Josh had hit puberty (which he had) it is not normal to have a sexual interest in pre-pubescent children. That is pedophilia whether the law defines it as such or not.

I am not sure of what to think about the debate on pedophilia being a choice or a mental illness, but I do know that the rights of children not to be abused trump any rights of a pedophile. If Josh were murdering people because he was mentally ill, he would still have to be "removed" from society for society's protection--whether that means going to jail or to a psychiatric hospital. There would be no argument about that.

The fact that the statute of limitations has run out for his older victims (and the youngest victim might still have the ability to seek legal action but is most likely being thwarted from doing so even if s/he wanted to) does not mean that Josh is not a serious threat to other children. If Josh has any integrity, he would check himself into treatment as soon as possible.

[imjustasteph]

This is a really good point. Homeschooled children are particularly vulnerable to abuse and in my opinion there should be more effective oversight of homeschool parents. If governments are not willing to invest in homeschool oversight, then they should make it illegal to homeschool. I say this because homeschooling can be thought of as a form of abuse in itself. Home schooled children are being prevented from obtaining the universal public education available to all citizens. Their parents are purposely thwarting the education of their children with the specific intent to prevent them from socialization within the mainstream culture. If the kids were just doing "correspondence" at home using the approved state curriculum it would be one thing, but the Duggars are teaching their children false information and sheltering them from exposure to factual information.

You have to recognize, though, that some of us homeschool specifically because the school system denies our kids an education.

I personally homeschool for a number of reasons, including that the local public school persistently denied my child a safe place to learn. My kid was coming home every day so upset that he couldn't function, lashing out at others, and wanting to hurt himself, because he was watching a teacher and a group of children heap systematic abuse on another child, and it was eating him up. I took him out and the whole world got brighter. I pulled the other two out as well, and since then, they've been learning far more than the school was teaching them, and still being done by early afternoon.

I know homeschooling is an excellent tool for covering abuse, but so are long-sleeved shirts. It also has a lot of positive points, when it's done for solid reasons and actually includes an education. I wouldn't mind reasonable regulations, though -- here in NC, my only legal requirements are that I keep records, and that I give them a state test every year. I'd even better like if the online public schooling was actually available to us.

[gustava]

This thought just hit me: Josh's behaviour is why his sisters do all the work.

Think of it this way: When Josh was discovered, all the Howlers (except maybe Jackson) had been born. They were "safe" with their male buddies, but then the Lost Girls started. Now, Michelle "couldn't" hand off her weaned baby girls to their bigger brothers, so the sisters had to step in. In 14 Kids and Whatever, Josh is shown as one of the Howlers' buddies, so we know that boys could be buddies too. Following the birth of the Lost Girls, the girls took over buddying and buddy teams were formed. As for the house work, that too was once shared more or less equally. Perhaps, again, JB & M thought it was "safer" to have "girl" jurisdictions and "boy" jurisdictions.

This disgusts me all over again. Not only do you fail your daughters (and your son) by getting nobody the treatment they need, you punish your daughters by making them do all the chores and childcare. Disgusting.

I think that Got-hard/ATI say that child raising is women's work, ergo a female jurisdiction. It doesn't seem to have ever been equally shared among Duggar males and female offspring. I think it has more to do with theology and child spacing than with Josh's behavior.

[Nic]

They have probably escaped the mandatory reporting requirements through a loophole. But this case is a good reason for changing the laws - if you homeschool you are an "educator" under mandatory reporting laws. If you don't take your kids to the doctor, you are the "physician" under mandatory reporting laws, etc.

If you kids need medical care, but you aren't taking them, you're a negligent parent.

Although I think it was shitty and shady that JB whipped out "not a mandatory reporter" card, I'm guessing the idea behind parents not being mandatory reporters is to encourage kids to disclose info to their parents. In return, we want parents to make the right decisions.

If Josh knew that FOR SURE his parents would immediately report him to the police, would he have turned himself in to JB?

[RosyDaisy]

Josh is most definitely a child molester, sex offender, and pedophile. My gut tells me there are more victims. I don't want him dead. I want him in prison for life. I want him to get secular therapy and counseling. There are fates worse than death.

[sockinshoe]

If you kids need medical care, but you aren't taking them, you're a negligent parent.

Although I think it was shitty and shady that JB whipped out "not a mandatory reporter" card, I'm guessing the idea behind parents not being mandatory reporters is to encourage kids to disclose info to their parents. In return, we want parents to make the right decisions.

If Josh knew that FOR SURE his parents would immediately report him to the police, would he have turned himself in to JB?

Some sources mention that it was one of the girls who went to JB and M, and that they confronted Josh. I think either way, the lack of reputable counselling should count as negligence...

[MarcyMM]

I just am really starting to doubt that Josh went to JB and Michelle, tears in his eyes and full of remorse. He got caught. And kept getting caught. And they hoped like hell they could keep it contained.

[Snarkle Motion]

Just going to tack on to this to say to SoHiDaisy: What the everloving fuck? Seriously? Suicide is one of the most absolutely damaging and devastating things that can happen to a family - it leaves so many ripples of unanswered questions, guilt and high risk of more suicides. It is tragic. Saying something like you said, even on a snark board, is ignorant.

Further, to you and others who continue to lambast Josh with the label of "Child Molester" and "Pedophile" - I still feel this is inappropriate. There are no reports that have been released regarding any psychiatric or psychological evaluations nor is he registered with a sex offender registry. I think we can all agree that his, and his parents actions around his behaviors as a teen, were completely inappropriate. We can probably also agree that they should not have a show. How their family is managed NOW is up to CPS, not public opinion.

What is inappropriate about calling Josh a "child molester"? He molested children and admitted to it.