Josh Duggar, Admitted Child Molester - Part 9

[Mama Mia]

But that's not true. We know that Josh was discovered looking at porn some years after he molested the girls and after he returned from carpentry camp. So that speaks for itself.

So porn is In the same category as molestation??? Apparently even Gothard doesn't believe that.

[albanuadh_1]

Wonder if we will hear any news about the CPS investigation from May 27th? Read somewhere it generally takes about 45 days so that would be about now.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Wonder if we will hear any news about the CPS investigation from May 27th? Read somewhere it generally takes about 45 days so that would be about now.

I thought they were continuing to monitor the situation.

Guess if they can't find out anything else maybe they'll close it.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I sure as hell will judge anyone who has an attraction to young children. There is no way to prove they haven't acted on those urges.

Opinions may vary, but in a scientific setting, you cannot prove a negative.

If someone says ze has an attraction to children, seeks counseling, and refuses to be around children as a precaution, judging them seems cavalier, at best.

[singsingsing]

But that's not true. We know that Josh was discovered looking at porn some years after he molested the girls and after he returned from carpentry camp. So that speaks for itself.

But do we actually know that? Or do we just know that a tabloid said it?

[J.O.Y.nomore]

Wonder if we will hear any news about the CPS investigation from May 27th? Read somewhere it generally takes about 45 days so that would be about now.

I thought CPS wasn't allowed to talk about cases. :think:

[Trynn]

At least, I hope not. Those kids deserve some privacy in their lives.

[FundieFarmer]

Stress, anxiety, and depression can all have negative side effects on the body.

Both of the counselors I saw after my assault, as well as my MD, said it's an accepted school of thought that the body holds on to trauma even if the mind doesn't remember it. There are a bunch of books on Amazon about it (including The Body Keeps the Score!), if you want to learn more. But I think that like much of trauma and trauma healing, it's probably one of those things that's stronger for some people than others, especially because as I understand it, it has more to do with the body's automatic reactions to triggers. So while I think it's true, I think it's also totally feasible that you don't experience it as I did and I don't experience it as another did, etc.

[CorruptionInc.]

Both of the counselors I saw after my assault, as well as my MD, said it's an accepted school of thought that the body holds on to trauma even if the mind doesn't remember it. There are a bunch of books on Amazon about it (including The Body Keeps the Score!), if you want to learn more. But I think that like much of trauma and trauma healing, it's probably one of those things that's stronger for some people than others, especially because as I understand it, it has more to do with the body's automatic reactions to triggers. So while I think it's true, I think it's also totally feasible that you don't experience it as I did and I don't experience it as another did, etc.

I was a victim of abuse from 2004 - 2008. While my mind has blocked out most of what happened, there are definitely some responses to situations (either mental or physical) that are clear my body is holding onto the trauma.

My depression is linked to my weight gain and osteoporosis, it is not something I have chosen to be and I wouldn't wish it on any one. The next time I hear "you're a pretty girl, all you need to do is lose weight" someone is getting punched.

[DeFrauder]

I thought CPS wasn't allowed to talk about cases. :think:

They are not.

[nelliebelle1197]

To me,Josh viewing pornography at work is just another example of his selfishness. The workplace in question could have been in legal trouble for exposing an underage teen to pornography (and given how the Duggars have a problem with the truth, I'm surprised that they didn't go this route). He had no regard for how his irresponsibility might impact his co-workers or boss, just about his immediate gratification. As usual,Josh got daddy to bail him out, thus reinforcing the view that the Duggar image is the most important thing.

Cleo, normally I like what you post, but this one is off the rails. The kid was 16 with no experience and without proper parenting and healthy modeling. If this was any other 16 year old with no life experience would you have the same reaction and call him selfish? How many 16 year olds think things through so thoroughly as to analyze the impact of every inch of their actions on others? How many grown ups get fired for the exact same thing?

To me, this kind of post is a perfect example of Duggar Derangement Syndrome. Everything these people do is held under such a microscope, I am surprised that the Duggars are even considered human any more. The standard to which certain people hold them is irrational. Yeah, they put themselves out there, but they are not exactly intelligent, introspective or educated enough to manage a slick image. And the kids not only did not have a choice, they know nothing else outside their bubble. Even their exposure to the real world is from inside the fundie extreme bubble.

I am not in the camp that Josh is some sort of sicko attracted to children who has continued to molest. As someone who was around and into fundieism as kid, I can tell you it is terrifying what they do to you about sexuality. It warps you. Josh did a lot of really bad things and that cannot be excused. However, as I have said countless times, the guy is a victim of Bill Gothard and his crazy parents. He is uneducated, not terribly bright and isolated. He was fed a wrap view of the world. That breeds extremes. I hope Josh is better. I hope he has moved passed all this. The best outcome would be that he moves away from Gothard and gets his kids out before their little minds are twisted like his and his siblings.

[FloraKitty35]

The whole house remodeling/carpentry shtick is just to Pillsbury Pervert look more Christ-like?

[Alicja]

I was a victim of abuse from 2004 - 2008. While my mind has blocked out most of what happened, there are definitely some responses to situations (either mental or physical) that are clear my body is holding onto the trauma.

My depression is linked to my weight gain and osteoporosis, it is not something I have chosen to be and I wouldn't wish it on any one. The next time I hear "you're a pretty girl, all you need to do is lose weight" someone is getting punched.

Amen to that sister. You have no idea how many times I've gotten "if you're anxious, just do yoga!"

And trauma is very much YMMV. Some people have symptoms decades later, while others' symptoms are relieved within a few months.

[Mama Mia]

Amen to that sister. You have no idea how many times I've gotten "if you're anxious, just do yoga!"

And trauma is very much YMMV. Some people have symptoms decades later, while others' symptoms are relieved within a few months.

Yes, I understand that different people react differently to trauma. And the same people will even react differently to different traumas. And what might be the most severe sort of trauma to one person may barely get a notice from another. Or it might be some strange side issue that causes the most damage to someone, instead of what most people would consider the worst abuse.

I'm just not getting how , in this particular situation there would even be something for the body to remember? By all accounts, with the girls who were asleep, Josh quickly put his hand on a clothed chest or , possibly, between their legs, over their nightgown and underwear. I mean, what would your body remember and be triggered by? :? I'm really curious.

Of course, once they were told about it, they could ( but wouldn't necessarily ) feel anxious if someone came near them, or touched them in a way they thought was similar. But that would be due to their emotional reactions to the idea of loss of control, sexuality, molestation, power, that came from what they were told of the event, etc. not, due to the actual memory of it happening. Or their body's unconscious reaction. I don't think I'm putting this clearly. I'm just trying to say that the body might react to an unusual or painful or uncomfortable physical experience that disturbed their sleep enough to cause some sort of I distinct, hazy impression. But it doesn't sound like that's what happened in this case. It sounds like it wouldn't be any more disturbing to their body, without context, than turning over or adjusting their clothes.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of the idea. It's just not making logical sense to me.

[FundieFarmer]

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying now, Mama Mia. Correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation. I think you're saying: it makes sense for the body to remember a violent or aggressive assault, but not necessarily a light touch like what the girls experienced. It may have just felt like a quick passing brush albeit in the wrong part of the body, so how would the body hold on to that as opposed to more aggressive assaults?

If I'm understanding correctly, you raise an interesting point that somebody who's read the book could probably explain, but is there a threshold for what the body holds on to? It seems as if the more serious violations occurred when the girls were awake, so it's an interesting perspective to consider when the bottom line is for remembering a trauma like that. This is not at all to minimize what the girls went through, but there is a big difference in terms of physical experience from a light brush to a more violent assault. If it's the case and they do have bodily memories, it the where that makes it traumatic, or how aggressive, or, or?

[Mama Mia]

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying now, Mama Mia. Correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation. I think you're saying: it makes sense for the body to remember a violent or aggressive assault, but not necessarily a light touch like what the girls experienced. It may have just felt like a quick passing brush albeit in the wrong part of the body, so how would the body hold on to that as opposed to more aggressive assaults?

If I'm understanding correctly, you raise an interesting point that somebody who's read the book could probably explain, but is there a threshold for what the body holds on to? It seems as if the more serious violations occurred when the girls were awake, so it's an interesting perspective to consider when the bottom line is for remembering a trauma like that. This is not at all to minimize what the girls went through, but there is a big difference in terms of physical experience from a light brush to a more violent assault. If it's the case and they do have bodily memories, it the where that makes it traumatic, or how aggressive, or, or?

Thank you! Yes, you put that much more clearly than I was able to. That is exactly what I meant.

[Mama Mia]

Cleo, normally I like what you post, but this one is off the rails. The kid was 16 with no experience and without proper parenting and healthy modeling. If this was any other 16 year old with no life experience would you have the same reaction and call him selfish? How many 16 year olds think things through so thoroughly as to analyze the impact of every inch of their actions on others? How many grown ups get fired for the exact same thing?

To me, this kind of post is a perfect example of Duggar Derangement Syndrome. Everything these people do is held under such a microscope, I am surprised that the Duggars are even considered human any more. The standard to which certain people hold them is irrational. Yeah, they put themselves out there, but they are not exactly intelligent, introspective or educated enough to manage a slick image. And the kids not only did not have a choice, they know nothing else outside their bubble. Even their exposure to the real world is from inside the fundie extreme bubble.

I am not in the camp that Josh is some sort of sicko attracted to children who has continued to molest. As someone who was around and into fundieism as kid, I can tell you it is terrifying what they do to you about sexuality. It warps you. Josh did a lot of really bad things and that cannot be excused. However, as I have said countless times, the guy is a victim of Bill Gothard and his crazy parents. He is uneducated, not terribly bright and isolated. He was fed a wrap view of the world. That breeds extremes. I hope Josh is better. I hope he has moved passed all this. The best outcome would be that he moves away from Gothard and gets his kids out before their little minds are twisted like his and his siblings.

:clap: :clap: Very well put. I was finding it very disturbing that people were putting 16 year old Josh viewing porn at work as some sort of horrible thing on the level of the molestation, or as proof" that he still had sexual issues. But your pointing out the " Duggar Derangement Syndrome " reassured me that people probably don't generally view teen age porn watching this way. Or at least I hope not. Because that would throw a remarkably high percentage of young people into the " problem" area sexually.

I'm sure most teens don't sneak a peek at porn at work, but only because typical teen jobs don't involve internet access, or the teen already can access the Internet at home so doesn't need to take the risk. Nowadays , of course, it's almost universally accessible, but I would bet decent money that teens that work at convienvece stores still will look at the adult x mags if they aren't on a security camera. And I, personally, think the only thing it has to do with his parents or the way he was raised is that he had less easy Internet access than most teens ( although this was 10+ years ago - private internet access was harder for teens in general ).

[FundieFarmer]

Thank you! Yes, you put that much more clearly than I was able to. That is exactly what I meant.

Phew! Okay, yay! Glad I got that right :)

But you do raise a really interesting point about what that threshold would be. Does anybody know what the research says?

[Cleopatra7]

Cleo, normally I like what you post, but this one is off the rails. The kid was 16 with no experience and without proper parenting and healthy modeling. If this was any other 16 year old with no life experience would you have the same reaction and call him selfish? How many 16 year olds think things through so thoroughly as to analyze the impact of every inch of their actions on others? How many grown ups get fired for the exact same thing?

To me, this kind of post is a perfect example of Duggar Derangement Syndrome. Everything these people do is held under such a microscope, I am surprised that the Duggars are even considered human any more. The standard to which certain people hold them is irrational. Yeah, they put themselves out there, but they are not exactly intelligent, introspective or educated enough to manage a slick image. And the kids not only did not have a choice, they know nothing else outside their bubble. Even their exposure to the real world is from inside the fundie extreme bubble.

I am not in the camp that Josh is some sort of sicko attracted to children who has continued to molest. As someone who was around and into fundieism as kid, I can tell you it is terrifying what they do to you about sexuality. It warps you. Josh did a lot of really bad things and that cannot be excused. However, as I have said countless times, the guy is a victim of Bill Gothard and his crazy parents. He is uneducated, not terribly bright and isolated. He was fed a wrap view of the world. That breeds extremes. I hope Josh is better. I hope he has moved passed all this. The best outcome would be that he moves away from Gothard and gets his kids out before their little minds are twisted like his and his siblings.

As many other posters have noted, JB and Michelle have enabled Josh's misbehavior. In the case of Josh viewing porn at work, it's very telling that their response was "sin in the camp" (or something similar) and bringing shame on the family, rather than a rational explanation about how viewing porn at work is unprofessional, could get his employers in trouble, is illegal for teens to access, etc that would take into account the needs and wants of other non-Duggar people. It seems that JB and Michelle's twisted parenting seldom mentioned how real-life individuals were harmed by Josh's actions, just the family unit/brand and god. The problem with using "sin" as an explanation for wrongdoing is that sin refers to what is offensive to god, not necessarily what is harmful to human beings. By continually telling Josh that his main concern should be "getting right with god/Gothard/daddy," it minimizes how his actions harm others (this is where forced or coerced forgiveness on the part of the victims comes in handy). This is why I think Josh behaves selfishly, which is largely due to the fact that his parents were/are willing to throw his victims under the bus to save their darling prince and their image of a "wholesome Christian family."

[mebeforee]

I don't have any idea whether an unconscious body can register trauma in some physical way, but I DO know that a rapist who takes advantage of someone unconscious (whether they deliberately drugged them, came across them while already drugged/drunk or raped them while they were asleep) should be held accountable as doing something completely unacceptable. It doesn't matter whether the victim remembers the assault, the person who violated them is still guilty of a horrific thing and should be held accountable for it. It is not okay to have nonconsensual sex even if the person was incapacitated and unable to say 'no'. Anyone who chooses to then molest or have sex with that incapacitated person is displaying seriously delinquent behaviors and a desire to overpower the helpless, and should be punished.

(As far as porn is concerned, I think that the idea that it's immoral or alarming for an underage kid to view porn is kind of laughable. They are in transit toward sexual maturity, their hormones are firing, and of course they have a wish to see porn. I looked at it, all my friends looked at it, and I'm sure many fundie kids look at it too. It's not a matter of being underage therefore illegal therefore immoral. There is no victim in those situations so long as the pornography in question features consenting adults. Yeah, Josh was at 'work' at the time, but he was helping out his dad. It wasn't a real job and he probably wasn't getting paid. He was a kid in an environment where he could look at stuff that people have a natural desire for - just check out the sexual/nude paintings and sculptures of early mankind - and given his upbringing he likely didn't see 'work' as being more formal or strict in any way than his home life. His crimes lay elsewhere, in the molestations of young girls, not in looking at porn. Teens look at it, there's no stopping that, and the US is somewhat behind the rest of the world in recognizing that it's a natural desire of young people reaching sexual maturity.)

[mebeforee]

Seriously, there is NO difference between Josh waiting until his victims were asleep to grope them and a date rapist putting a drug in his victim's drink. They are both waiting for their victim to be incapacitated to make their move. If we can recognize that a date rapist's actions are reprehensible we should be able to view Josh's actions in the same light. It doesn't matter how religious the family is, there was a deliberate choice to molest those unable to resist.

[Mama Mia]

Seriously, there is NO difference between Josh waiting until his victims were asleep to grope them and a date rapist putting a drug in his victim's drink. They are both waiting for their victim to be incapacitated to make their move. If we can recognize that a date rapist's actions are reprehensible we should be able to view Josh's actions in the same light. It doesn't matter how religious the family is, there was a deliberate choice to molest those unable to resist.

Do you really think anyone is arguing that it was a- ok for Josh to grope his sleeping sisters? No. Of course not. This particular sub-conversation wasn't about Josh and his guilt, it was about whether the body would remember the touching, even if the mind was unaware of it.

Of course his actions were reprehensible. No one, including his parents and his sisters have ever said it was acceptable behavior. Of course it was horrible.

I do think there is a difference in degreebetween a young teen sneaking in when he sees a sleeping sister and quickly groping over her clothes - and a grown man percuring a drug for the purpose of causing unconsciousness, making a date, putting the drug in the drink when the woman looks away, getting her into a place where he presumably won't get caught and then raping her. Now a kid like Josh seems to me to have a lot of red flags in his victimization pattern that could have escalated to that level,down the line - but at the point that any known abuse stopped - it was far , far short of a planned rape.

--

[Nic]

As many other posters have noted, JB and Michelle have enabled Josh's misbehavior. In the case of Josh viewing porn at work, it's very telling that their response was "sin in the camp" (or something similar) and bringing shame on the family, rather than a rational explanation about how viewing porn at work is unprofessional, could get his employers in trouble, is illegal for teens to access, etc that would take into account the needs and wants of other non-Duggar people. It seems that JB and Michelle's twisted parenting seldom mentioned how real-life individuals were harmed by Josh's actions, just the family unit/brand and god. The problem with using "sin" as an explanation for wrongdoing is that sin refers to what is offensive to god, not necessarily what is harmful to human beings. By continually telling Josh that his main concern should be "getting right with god/Gothard/daddy," it minimizes how his actions harm others (this is where forced or coerced forgiveness on the part of the victims comes in handy). This is why I think Josh behaves selfishly, which is largely due to the fact that his parents were/are willing to throw his victims under the bus to save their darling prince and their image of a "wholesome Christian family."

Though they see looking at porn on a work computer and molesting on the same level and toss it all in as that typical "selfish Josh", we shouldn't. It over-reacts to the former, and minimizes the latter. And we should take them to task for this ridiculous skewed view.

Looking at porn on a work computer is an example of stupid, selfish, reckless behavior, which are hallmarks of being a (male) teenager.

Molesting sisters (or anyone) is something entirely different.

I'm not saying these always exist in separate vacuums, but they certainly don't deserve the same amount of criticism, punishment, etc.

The bigger issue that the media etc is failing to address is we have a group that lumps it all in as one, that is where society should be saying WTF-- and not bad Joshie looking at porn. Because as long as all these issues are treated the same, there will never be any progress towards alleviating any of it.

The Radar article treated Josh looking at porn as no better than his parents did. It could have been an opportunity to take a macro look and say no wonder they are so fucked up in that community-- look at how they handle all these situations. Instead, they opt to say that pervert was at it again.

[DeFrauder]

There are so many different debates going on about what Josh did. Sex is a very controversial subject.

Looking at porn is considered normal behavior (providing it does not involve minors).

Having premarital sex as a teenager is normal behavior.

"Mild, inappropriate touching" of a sleeping person is highly abnormal and predatory behavior.

Sexual molestation of a child while they sleep is highly abnormal and predatory.

Sexual molestation of a minimum of 5 different children is alarmingly abnormal and predatory behavior.

[HarleyQuinn]

The Duggars treat porn like it's worst than child molestation. It's ridiculous.