All THINGS DILLARD - Part 3

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

That's an interesting perspective! I tend think very much otherwise. Polar! I foresee Jessa and Bin starting a ministry of their own. Very Outspoken. And Derrick and Jill, being more lite. I think Jill will grow more loving, doting upon on her infant, and lighten up the harshness of her family's fundamentalism values, at least in the child-rearing department.

[Firiel]

Again, Dear Free Jinger members, I apologize and am sorry any of you have taken offense. But please, feel free to patronize me if it makes you feel better.

Bad apology:

I'm sorry YOU were offended.

This is a bad apology because it places fault on the person who was offended by your words. It is a non-apology because it masquerades as an apology when in reality, you don't see anything wrong with what you did.

Good apology:

I'm sorry I did XYZ. When you called me out on it, I learned XYZ. I hope to do better in the future.

See how that apology is actually admitting that you were at fault and includes a promise to change behavior? That comes off as a genuine apology.

Now, I'm not trying to force you into apologizing for something you don't think is wrong. I'm actually not the thought-police. But when you offer up a shitty, non-apology, don't be all offended when people still think you are full of shit, and don't pull the "But I apologiiiiiiiiiiiized!" line.

In other words, if you think it's okay to use racist stereotypes that have been used to oppress a people group for centuries, then at least have the balls to own it and face the social repercussions of it. Don't hide behind a fake apology and then claim persecution.

[bionicmlle]

Indeed, I have rather ignored your collective posts, jews and non-jews alike. Because Ive been at work, I havent the time to reply to all the trolling of my posts as part of your collective police-state. So, start-up your eye-rolling engines, because here is my response. :auto-dirtbike: :roll: :roll: :roll:

If you are offended by the statement of Jessa handing money like a jew, and consider it anti-semitic, you are allowed to feel that way. And Im sorry you feel that way. And again, I am sorry to offend. Unfortunately, the matter is subjective. My point being, that Jessa is well-off, and will remain so, because "she handles money like a jew". You can interpret it any way you choose. However, I submit to the argument that economic anti-semitism is not a distinct form of anti-semitism and stems from theological causes (Because I may be Jewish, and furthermore, an accountant, but I am comfortable with my personhood and confident and secure in my heritage.). You cannot curb free speech in this world, and inevitably you will cross this stereotype again, so I encourage those of you offended by the stereotype to find new healthy ways to approach it.

Thank-you to everyone who sent me a PM, apologizing for the, "attacks" and bullying. I wouldnt want to come between a new poster and the Free Jinger police-statelynch-mob either. edit: Like I said, I come in peace!! Peace I tell you!

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that your initial intentions were not nefarious. The fact that you have dug your heels in so deeply on your stance that this rhetoric is not offensive ("'cuz I'm a Jew, ya'll, so it's all good!") is what is so troubling. I would encourage you (and all of us, really!) to be open to feedback concerning folks' reactions to your statements - what a gift to get this feedback on a relatively anonymous forum rather than in real life where a gaffe such as that may have real consequences.

We are a pretty tolerant bunch here... Except when it comes to hate speech which. IMHO, includes stereotypes of gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, socio-economic status, et cetera.

And on-topic - the teaser on the last episode hinted at a big move for the, and the family seemed more surprised than "a new job" - I do think they will be doing some church-planting somewhere internationally but maybe NOT Nepal.

[apple1]

I hadn't even posted in this thread until now. But I will now.

@Fullmoon...

-I'm fairly confident that I have read helpmeet instructions that say something to the effect of don't get butthurt if other posters call you out on shenanigans that you post.

-The main reason I'm pushing back right now is your manipulative attempt to silence posters who you disagree with by calling them bullies.

-PMs? I guess this means that you have a strong position (NOT).

-Firiel is correct. Anything with the phrase "I'm sorry you..." is a non-apology.

Done.

[Fascinated]

Indeed, I have rather ignored your collective posts, jews and non-jews alike. Because Ive been at work, I havent the time to reply to all the trolling of my posts as part of your collective police-state. So, start-up your eye-rolling engines, because here is my response. :auto-dirtbike: :roll: :roll: :roll:

If you are offended by the statement of Jessa handing money like a jew, and consider it anti-semitic, you are allowed to feel that way. And Im sorry you feel that way. And again, I am sorry to offend. Unfortunately, the matter is subjective. My point being, that Jessa is well-off, and will remain so, because "she handles money like a jew". You can interpret it any way you choose. However, I submit to the argument that economic anti-semitism is not a distinct form of anti-semitism and stems from theological causes (Because I may be Jewish, and furthermore, an accountant, but I am comfortable with my personhood and confident and secure in my heritage.). You cannot curb free speech in this world, and inevitably you will cross this stereotype again, so I encourage those of you offended by the stereotype to find new healthy ways to approach it.

Thank-you to everyone who sent me a PM, apologizing for the, "attacks" and bullying. I wouldnt want to come between a new poster and the Free Jinger police-statelynch-mob either. edit: Like I said, I come in peace!! Peace I tell you!

You have not been attacked, bullied or patronized. Posters, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, have explained to you politely that your comment was offensive, and they have explained why. There really shouldn't be too much debate or 'interpretation' here. It was offensive. Period.

[FloraKitty35]

There is a gulf of difference between a family who strives to lead a private life and is suddenly thrust in the spotlight, and a family that puts every excruciating detail: dentist visits, periods, laundry, bedrooms, tot casserole, personal habits, et al on camera for profit. The children, although they didn't arrange this, certainly have loved and benefitted from the lifestyle of Fundie royalty...magazine covers, mega weddings, ghost written books and assorted grifting. They can't now cry "invasion of PRIVACY!!! Eleventy!!!!!" Well, they can and do, but the hypocrisy burns.

They fail to realize that what is built up can (and usually will) be torn down.

[happy atheist]

-I'm fairly confident that I have read helpmeet instructions that say something to the effect of don't get butthurt if other posters call you out on shenanigans that you post.

Indeed.

[FloraKitty35]

I hope he has a new job somewhere within like a 3 hours drive. Far enough from Duggarville but close enough so that Cathy can still visit.

Getting a little bit of breathing room from Duggarville would be a good thing, also finding a good licensed and accredited therapist and utilizing his or her services in a positive and constructive manner would be a good thing for Jill (and Derick too). But, that might be a little too hopeful.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

I never get a secret PM army. :snooty:

Anyway, I wasn't pointing out that you were ignoring the Jewish people who said it was offensive because you took some days off to work, you skipped right over their posts and responded to other people.

You want to ignore that this stereotype is almost always used as an insult and has been used as propaganda to persecute Jews, but the rest of us aren't. Come in peace but don't remain in ignorance of what that stereotype means to most people.

I hate to remain on this matter, as Ive apologized many times, readers must be sick of this, but Id like to address your claim. :dead-horse:

Emotions and intentions are very much lost in translation, in texts and online-platforms. I def. sympathize with the suffering of any group of people having gone through centuries of injustice and painful discrimination. I will say it again, I am sorry for anyone who has to feel shame at the expense of their beliefs or heritage, by the mouth of an insensitive speaker (be it me or whomever).

So, economic anti-semitism stems from very early sentiments of Christian tradition and pagan antiquity. But YES, it has caused a lot of damage to the perception of the Jews, especially during times of recession. About the mid-1800s or so, the hate began with words such as "stupid" or "tight-fisted". But after the emancipation and heroic rise of Jews into the middle and upper-class, those words changed to "clever" and "dominating". And I sometimes speak loosely because I am proud and secure in the triumph of my ancestors, and in turn am comfortable using the stereotype. I am not ignoring what it means to others; I sympathize and apologize for offending. :cry:

[ClaraOswin]

That's an interesting perspective! I tend think very much otherwise. Polar! I foresee Jessa and Bin starting a ministry of their own. Very Outspoken. And Derrick and Jill, being more lite. I think Jill will grow more loving, doting upon on her infant, and lighten up the harshness of her family's fundamentalism values, at least in the child-rearing department.

I agree with the above. That's how I see it right now too. Jessa also strikes me as very likely to do stuff like blanket-training. Hopefully I'm wrong though because that shit is so messed up.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

Bad apology:

I'm sorry YOU were offended.

This is a bad apology because it places fault on the person who was offended by your words. It is a non-apology because it masquerades as an apology when in reality, you don't see anything wrong with what you did.

Good apology:

I'm sorry I did XYZ. When you called me out on it, I learned XYZ. I hope to do better in the future.

See how that apology is actually admitting that you were at fault and includes a promise to change behavior? That comes off as a genuine apology.

Now, I'm not trying to force you into apologizing for something you don't think is wrong. I'm actually not the thought-police. But when you offer up a shitty, non-apology, don't be all offended when people still think you are full of shit, and don't pull the "But I apologiiiiiiiiiiiized!" line.

In other words, if you think it's okay to use racist stereotypes that have been used to oppress a people group for centuries, then at least have the balls to own it and face the social repercussions of it. Don't hide behind a fake apology and then claim persecution.

That was sarcasm, directed at the post I was replying to (you should have included that post in the quote - without it you take my post out of context). Said post was rude, and belittled my sincere apology, and thus, was patronizing me and the apology I did very much "try" at, .

I will edit it, and direct it to whom its for.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

I hadn't even posted in this thread until now. But I will now.

@Fullmoon...

-I'm fairly confident that I have read helpmeet instructions that say something to the effect of don't get butthurt if other posters call you out on shenanigans that you post.

-The main reason I'm pushing back right now is your manipulative attempt to silence posters who you disagree with by calling them bullies.

-PMs? I guess this means that you have a strong position (NOT).

-Firiel is correct. Anything with the phrase "I'm sorry you..." is a non-apology.

Done.

I have literally said, "I apologize", in many ways, many forms, in many words. At this point, I feel like posters are taking my well-articulated and deeply thought-out apologies and confusing them as cold-hearted. In actuality, the problem is the platform wherein one cannot properly translate emotions or sincerity. Its unfortunate, because I have put in time and effort at responding with my feelings, my sorrow and apologies, related them to my personal history and beliefs, and have only meant well, only to be met by sarcasm and patronization.

So. Regarding your "points" there, please try re-reading my posts. And on the contrary, I have called no one a bully, others have.

[littlemommy]

I must say (/Ed Grimley voice) that I haven't enjoyed reading FJ as much lately since Duggargate. I mean, I wanted the Duggars to go down, but not like this. Not at the expense of the girls. So I haven't commented as much as usual and reading posts (even Lori posts) haven't brought me much pleasure.

But this thread? This somehow reminds me of the FJ I love. Ahhh, the feels!! :)

[purpleskies]

I agree with the above. That's how I see it right now too. Jessa also strikes me as very likely to do stuff like blanket-training. Hopefully I'm wrong though because that shit is so messed up.

I agree. Ben strikes me as an exceedingly fervent young man. I see him fully devoting himself to spreading his message and getting deeper and deeper into it all. Too bad he couldn't use all of his passion for good. Or a job.

*edit HOLY CRAP when did I start feeling old enough to call twentysomethings young man? ugh.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

I agree with the above. That's how I see it right now too. Jessa also strikes me as very likely to do stuff like blanket-training. Hopefully I'm wrong though because that shit is so messed up.

Yes! Youre right about Jessa! I began to like Jessa best (you know, if you were to choose one, lol) as I became exposed to the Duggars. She had sass, personality, and a little rebellion. Loved her eye-roll. Unfortunately, it seems shes taken that sass in the wrong direction; under the unadulterated flame of fame she has grown to like the power and use it for her own agenda, much like a sith lord instead of a jedi!

[ShepherdontheRock]

Yes! Youre right about Jessa! I began to like Jessa best (you know, if you were to choose one, lol) as I became exposed to the Duggars. She had sass, personality, and a little rebellion. Loved her eye-roll. Unfortunately, it seems shes taken that sass in the wrong direction; under the unadulterated flame of fame she has grown to like the power and use it for her own agenda, much like a sith lord instead of a jedi!

Maybe we should be worried for Jinger, if/when she gets her own social media...

Since she and Jessa are close and have similar personalities, I hope she doesn't go the exact same way.

[halcionne]

Yes! Youre right about Jessa! I began to like Jessa best (you know, if you were to choose one, lol) as I became exposed to the Duggars. She had sass, personality, and a little rebellion. Loved her eye-roll. Unfortunately, it seems shes taken that sass in the wrong direction; under the unadulterated flame of fame she has grown to like the power and use it for her own agenda, much like a sith lord instead of a jedi!

Darth Jessa. So true, and so sad. I'm partial to her for the same reasons you are, but I'm not enough of a Star Wars fan to continue the metaphor. :darthvader: It doesn't help that she lives in topsy turvy land where she thinks her people are the good guys and we're the bad ones.

:shakehead2:

[gilora]

Maybe we should be worried for Jinger, if/when she gets her own social media...

Since she and Jessa are close and have similar personalities, I hope she doesn't go the exact same way.

Unfortunately Jinger won't be allowed her own social media accounts until there's a new headship in the picture.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

I wouldn't say that Jessa and Jinger have similar personalities at all. Jessa seems like a controlling person, and Jinger absolutely does not. Jinger seems somewhat easy-going. Jessa is absolutely not easy-going. I don't think Jinger has ever been a loud, vocal, in-your-face kind of person like Jessa is. In fact, Jinger strikes me as uncomfortable with attention. I don't even think that's a self-esteem issue. I think that's just her personality.

[VelociRapture]

I wouldn't say that Jessa and Jinger have similar personalities at all. Jessa seems like a controlling person, and Jinger absolutely does not. Jinger seems somewhat easy-going. Jessa is absolutely not easy-going. I don't think Jinger has ever been a loud, vocal, in-your-face kind of person like Jessa is. In fact, Jinger strikes me as uncomfortable with attention. I don't even think that's a self-esteem issue. I think that's just her personality.

Im not sure. Jessa was apparently quite shy during their engagement episode - she seemed reluctant or hesitant to approach strangers in the park to collect the roses. And we have heard that Jinger used to spend time harassing handing out Jesus information to innocent bystanders random people around town.

I think that off camera all the kids are probably somewhat different than how they are on camera.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

Im not sure. Jessa was apparently quite shy during their engagement episode - she seemed reluctant or hesitant to approach strangers in the park to collect the roses. And we have heard that Jinger used to spend time harassing handing out Jesus information to innocent bystanders random people around town.

I think that off camera all the kids are probably somewhat different than how they are on camera.

With a matter of sharing opinions and what is affectionately called "spewing hatred", Jessa seems rather comfortable. Jessa seems comfortable in control. That engagement episode she had zero control over the whole ordeal and I don't think she liked at all. I don't know if Jinger is a control-happy person. At least she doesn't appear that way.

I would hope that off-camera they're different :| they should get to keep as much of their personalities to themselves as they can.

[VelociRapture]

With a matter of sharing opinions and what is affectionately called "spewing hatred", Jessa seems rather comfortable. Jessa seems comfortable in control. That engagement episode she had zero control over the whole ordeal and I don't think she liked at all. I don't know if Jinger is a control-happy person. At least she doesn't appear that way.

I would hope that off-camera they're different :| they should get to keep as much of their personalities to themselves as they can.

Very true. You do have a good point. I think Jessa needing control could be part of her personality - someone needed to help run things at her parents' house and you can't always be nice to be effective.

[Librul]

Re: future stances of Jilly/Derrick and Jessa/Bin.

I think they will double down on the crazed Fundie, at least for the near future. What happens 10 years down the road may be another matter, but I suspect now they feel the need to prove their upbringing and beliefs are TRUTH...because JESUS! I think it is far more likely that some of the herd of Batessess or the young Duggerlings might end up Lite.

[RebelYell]

Re the more fundie/less fundie positions the young couples may take in years to come: nothing would surprise me, it could go either way.

Personal longwinded example :embarrassed: -

I am from a Charity/Mennonite type deeeep fundie background (read: frumpers and head coverings) that taught a lot of the same things that the Duggars believe regarding courtship and marriage, headships (mm... ;) maybe not to the extent of gazing at your man whilst he waxes long, but still a definite pyramid of authority and submission) and a lot of the couples that were INSTRUMENTAL in that movement (I'm thinking of probably 10 different families) have stopped living that lifestyle completely, albeit gradually, wearing and letting their kids wear pants and low cut tops, going completely fundie-lite.

I wouldn't recognize them as fundie at all except for their evangelical style of Christianise. These are people that used to rebuke others for not being modest enough, and have now changed their position on it entirely, as well as many other things, like secular entertainment.

Some families consist of parents who still remain conservative, but the kids (who were all so devout at one time or another, ala Jessa and Ben) have completely left it all behind. I am in that group. I have really been pleasantly surprised to find out that almost everyone I grew up around has taken a less strict path in the end. But now I've stopped being surprised. So, it can and does happen that people enmeshed in that culture become less strict, but there are always others who get deeper and deeper into it and never leave. One of my uncle's families is like that. In fact, my uncle could be Stevehovah's twin, except HIS wife and my cousins have gone deep into frumperville. :hand:

[fuscia]

About thinking Derek was a better man... I was about to say he showed who he was by getting involved with this crazy group, but if he loves Jill I'm glad he didn't let her nutso family get in the way of being with her. What shows who he really is, to me, is that he is STILL hanging around with the Duggars and not getting his family out of there and making a life with them. And I don't mean to post-natural disaster Nepal!

I think that moving too far from Jim Bob controlling things might be too hard on Jill. She appears to be an overly needy daddy's girl. She cries over everything, by what we see on TV, and I suspect that Derek may have a long term plan to break away from the Duggars. It will take time to get Jill to be more independent from them. She has had a lot of changes in a short amount of time. I doubt Derek would want to shake her foundation at this time.