Duggars Vs. Bates

[lisa_m]

Can you please explain fundie royalty to me? newbie here.

Fundie royalty are famous fundie families or individuals. They become famous for either being on tv or they having their own website which shows how extreme they are. Examples of fundie royalty include the Duggars, Bateses, Maxwells, Kellers, Wallers, Jeubs, Ardnts, Pearls, Mallys and Botkinses.

[19 cats and counting]

Ok I was thinking about this while at the gym. Let's do a wager here--- at the end of 2016, who will have more grandchildren--- Duggars or Bateses?

Duggars currently are at 3 with 2 on the way. No courtships on the horizon.

Bateses are currently at 1 with 2 on the way. Michael is courting and probably will be married by the end of 2015.

[Alexa]

The Bates are coming off more likable and "normal" at this point, no matter how much they are like the Duggars. I will say that they appear to be more comfortable with each other and have an easier time making jokes with one another. They just don't seem as on edge as the Duggars do. Probably because Kelly doesn't appear as outwardly crazy as Michelle. Kelly seems like she is actually smart and would be able to hold a conversation with someone, her kids seem to actually like her too.

You know it has to kill Jim Bob that 2 of Gil's daughters are married to fundie royalty and one is about to be married to one. Derrick Dillard was a good catch, but Ben was his lawn boy. Neither one comes close to being a Senator's son. Unless the Duggars start marrying off more of their kids, the Bates are going to beat them with more grandchildren soon.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

The Bates are coming off more likable and "normal" at this point, no matter how much they are like the Duggars. I will say that they appear to be more comfortable with each other and have an easier time making jokes with one another. They just don't seem as on edge as the Duggars do. Probably because Kelly doesn't appear as outwardly crazy as Michelle. Kelly seems like she is actually smart and would be able to hold a conversation with someone, her kids seem to actually like her too.

You know it has to kill Jim Bob that 2 of Gil's daughters are married to fundie royalty and one is about to be married to one. Derrick Dillard was a good catch, but Ben was his lawn boy. Neither one comes close to being a Senator's son. Unless the Duggars start marrying off more of their kids, the Bates are going to beat them with more grandchildren soon.

I know that everyone keeps saying that it has to kill JB but I really don't think it does. I think that, if we were talking about boys, it would be one thing -- JB seems to treat his sons like pawns -- but he really does seem to want his daughters to be happy. I'm sure that, if it was all about the competition, JB would play the "I'm headship" card and force his daughters into courtships they don't want. But he hasn't. And, trust me, with the number of people throwing themselves at the Duggars, Ben was not "chosen" for that reason.

Plus, why would JB want his daughters to marry a senators son? Look at what happened to Alyssa. She got married to him and now she's wearing pants and shirts that bring attention to her body and being immodest. Also, JB is probably looking at Erin's infertility as some kind of punishment (since that's what quiverfulls believe) and probably view their children's courtships as more godly in general (especially with things like Zach and Whitney kissing). I think, if there's any competition there, it's probably more towards "who is godlier," which JB would assume he won (since his daughters and son had very strict courtship rules AND Jill got pregnant as soon as she was married).

[RosyDaisy]

The Bates are coming off more likable and "normal" at this point, no matter how much they are like the Duggars. I will say that they appear to be more comfortable with each other and have an easier time making jokes with one another. They just don't seem as on edge as the Duggars do. Probably because Kelly doesn't appear as outwardly crazy as Michelle. Kelly seems like she is actually smart and would be able to hold a conversation with someone, her kids seem to actually like her too.

You know it has to kill Jim Bob that 2 of Gil's daughters are married to fundie royalty and one is about to be married to one. Derrick Dillard was a good catch, but Ben was his lawn boy. Neither one comes close to being a Senator's son. Unless the Duggars start marrying off more of their kids, the Bates are going to beat them with more grandchildren soon.

If the new show lasts for a few seasons, attitudes will change just like they did with the Duggars. As far as JB being upset over not marrying his daughters off to funde royalty, I don't think he is. He wants yes men that he can control.

[Kira]

Fundie royalty are famous fundie families or individuals. They become famous for either being on tv or they having their own website which shows how extreme they are. Examples of fundie royalty include the Duggars, Bateses, Maxwells, Kellers, Wallers, Jeubs, Ardnts, Pearls, Mallys and Botkinses.

I wouldn't call the Kellers, Wallers, Juebs, and Arntds fundie royalty. The Mawells? :shrug:

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I wouldn't call the Kellers, Wallers, Juebs, and Arntds fundie royalty. The Mawells? :shrug:

I thought fundie royalty consisted of people who were really involved in their fundamentalist groups. Like on the board of directors or something similar.

[SassyPants]

I know that everyone keeps saying that it has to kill JB but I really don't think it does. I think that, if we were talking about boys, it would be one thing -- JB seems to treat his sons like pawns -- but he really does seem to want his daughters to be happy. I'm sure that, if it was all about the competition, JB would play the "I'm headship" card and force his daughters into courtships they don't want. But he hasn't. And, trust me, with the number of people throwing themselves at the Duggars, Ben was not "chosen" for that reason.

Plus, why would JB want his daughters to marry a senators son? Look at what happened to Alyssa. She got married to him and now she's wearing pants and shirts that bring attention to her body and being immodest. Also, JB is probably looking at Erin's infertility as some kind of punishment (since that's what quiverfulls believe) and probably view their children's courtships as more godly in general (especially with things like Zach and Whitney kissing). I think, if there's any competition there, it's probably more towards "who is godlier," which JB would assume he won (since his daughters and son had very strict courtship rules AND Jill got pregnant as soon as she was married).

JB likes attention, control and money. He may not want influential in-laws for his kids, because he wants to be the one receiving the attention, having the control and the money.

IMO, JB and Michelle are both stuck in adolescence as indicated by their immature behaviors.

[LittleOleMe]

I know that everyone keeps saying that it has to kill JB but I really don't think it does. I think that, if we were talking about boys, it would be one thing -- JB seems to treat his sons like pawns -- but he really does seem to want his daughters to be happy. I'm sure that, if it was all about the competition, JB would play the "I'm headship" card and force his daughters into courtships they don't want. But he hasn't. And, trust me, with the number of people throwing themselves at the Duggars, Ben was not "chosen" for that reason.

Plus, why would JB want his daughters to marry a senators son? Look at what happened to Alyssa. She got married to him and now she's wearing pants and shirts that bring attention to her body and being immodest. Also, JB is probably looking at Erin's infertility as some kind of punishment (since that's what quiverfulls believe) and probably view their children's courtships as more godly in general (especially with things like Zach and Whitney kissing). I think, if there's any competition there, it's probably more towards "who is godlier," which JB would assume he won (since his daughters and son had very strict courtship rules AND Jill got pregnant as soon as she was married).

In the holier-than-thou christ-lympics, JB has clearly won. Josh is married with his fourth kid on the way after six years of marriage. He's working for FRCaction in DC fighting on the front lines for jesus, making sure those sinful gays can't marry and the commies can't force hobby lobby to provide birth control. Plus the three (modestly dressed) kids he does have are all super cute. Jill married a godly man who was doing gods work for two full years in a third world heathen country, trying to save the people of Nepal from certain damnation. They followed Daddy's rule very specifically and didn't hold hands until they were engaged. They saved that first kiss for their wedding and waited until their wedding night to have their very first moment alone without anyone else being there. God then rewarded them by opening her womb that very night. Then there's Jessa. She's married a child, yes, but he was from a godly family. Even his daddy married at the exact same age! He preaches against the wrong forms of christianity constantly and he isn't afraid about offending people. If they're offended, then they need to get right with god. His sister just did a mission trip to yet another third world heathen country and worked tirelessly for a whole week or two to try and save the people of wherever she went. Jessa is staying home - literally at home - and learning how to be a wife while her husband works for her daddy and keeps the family close together.

Then there's Gil. Zach had a courtship with a lovely young lady and when he proposed she practically ran away from him. Understandable, Zach was heartbroken. He started looking for love in all the wrong places and eventually found a pants-wearing, working, heathen of a woman. But she was pretty and willing to change absolutely everything for Zach. She now is a skirts-only SAHM who has accepted Jesus as her personal saviour. Still, though, she was adopted and the family still carries around the sins of the father. He may have converted her, but she was still a pant-wearing heathen woman who was working and had been adopted. No wonder they broke their courtship vows and kissed before the wedding! That harlot! Then there's Erin. Like Jill, she didn't hold hands until engagement and didn't kiss until she was married. She even married fundie royalty! But she obviously has some sort of sinful past since she's had several miscarriages. Maybe she led on Gothard, since she is very pretty. Maybe it's because she really did want to go to that other school for free, even if it was more worldly. Maybe she complained about that or never really forgave her parents for it. Either way, she did something for god to punish her by opening her womb and then taking those babies away. Or maybe the sin is one of her husband's? Or maybe Erin is being punished for Zach's mistake of bringing an adopted girl into the family. Maybe the sins of her father are punishing the entire family, even Erin. Whatever the case, she finally forgave whomever or repented her sins or just prayed hard enough bc she's finally pregnant and finally carrying a baby to what appears to be full term. Next we have Alyssa. She not only married fundie royalty, but a politicians son! She married into a family working just as hard as Josh as making sure those evil gays can't marry and the commies don't make hobby lobby supply women with pills that can cause abortions, bc those are evil, too, no matter what the circumstance. But, she moved away from her family and then started wearing pants and sleeveless tops. It took her a few months to get pregnant, but she is in fact going to have a baby right around her first wedding anniversary.

So yeah, JB clearly won.

Just to note, I don't actually believe this shit, but this is exactly how these people think. I would never consider anyone less worthy of anything just bc they were adopted or bc they kissed before married or be they had fertility issues. That's absolutely ridiculous. But so are these people. Sadly.

[Boogalou]

Same shit different wardrobe with some southern charm thrown in. Let's take a look:

* Gil quit a good paying job at Nabisco to start his own business per Gothard's teachings.

* Grifted for free stuff while claiming they aren't on welfare.

* They belong to a cult whose former leader, Bill Gothard, has sexually harassed and assaulted teen girls and young women.

*2 daughters married to and 1 courting fundie royalty.

* Gil is on IBLP BoD (happened around the same time the courtships began).

* The girls are sent to Journey to the Heart, putting them in Bill Gothard's path.

* Jobs held by the Bates ladies are Gothard approved.

* Kelly pimped out Zach to fundie families with marriageable daughters after his failed courtship and while he was dating Whitney.

* "Convicted" Whitney to wear skirts only.

* Older daughter homeschooling her younger siblings.

* Late Bates

* Kelly didn't leave to check on her son after his wreck.

* These people seek to make away our rights.

There is absolutely nothing likeable about the Bates or Duggars...PERIOD. They are hateful people who hide behind take smiles and fake wholesomeness, and they hide the ugly. They have spiritually and emotionaly abused (and MAYBE even phsically) their kids. They deserve no sympathy, and I will cut them no slack or give them the benefit of the doubt.

Don't forget that it was also the older daughters who potty trained all the little ones.

[formergothardite]

Also don't forget that when asked to name her children Kelly admitted that she is unable to do so. She wouldn't even try. She is hardly an involved mother.

[CorruptionInc.]

Also don't forget that when asked to name her children Kelly admitted that she is unable to do so. She wouldn't even try. She is hardly an involved mother.

That is pathetic. HOW can you not know your Children's names?!

Even with 19, there are NO excuses!

[calimojo]

I don't remember seeing that. When did that happen when she couldn't recall the names?

I have a much smaller family and I get names mixed up all the time. I even rotate in the poor dog's name on occasion.

I feel pretty certain Kelly knows who here children are, and like we have all observed the kids certainly seem more lively and comfortable around their parents than the Duggar kids. But I do think that Kelly's relationship with her older kids is different that with her younger ones. I feel like she is definitely more in a manager role with the younger ones, and delegates much of the work to raise them to others. I feel like with about Carlin on up, she and Gil really know the kids well, and from younger than Carlin, it is more like a full time day care where the kids are taught things, taken care of and even receive a decent amount of affection, but they are being "Group raised" instead of individually raised. I don't feel like I am explaining that right, but hopefully you know what I mean.

The Bates are more fun to watch, but as so many have said, that isn't necessarily a good thing. Unless we see them stepping away from ATI, Gothard etc,, we have to assume they carry the same harmful beliefs and behaviors.

Re: the Duggars. I am really curious to know if TLC will edit them differently now that they have seen the good reaction that people have had to the less obviously scripted and controlled kids on the Bateses' show.

[Formosa]

Similarities:

The oldest Duggar boy and the oldest Bates boy are married.

The second oldest and the third oldest Duggar girl are married.

The second oldest and the third oldest Bates girl are married.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I don't remember seeing that. When did that happen when she couldn't recall the names?

I have a much smaller family and I get names mixed up all the time. I even rotate in the poor dog's name on occasion.

I feel pretty certain Kelly knows who here children are, and like we have all observed the kids certainly seem more lively and comfortable around their parents than the Duggar kids. But I do think that Kelly's relationship with her older kids is different that with her younger ones. I feel like she is definitely more in a manager role with the younger ones, and delegates much of the work to raise them to others. I feel like with about Carlin on up, she and Gil really know the kids well, and from younger than Carlin, it is more like a full time day care where the kids are taught things, taken care of and even receive a decent amount of affection, but they are being "Group raised" instead of individually raised. I don't feel like I am explaining that right, but hopefully you know what I mean.

The Bates are more fun to watch, but as so many have said, that isn't necessarily a good thing. Unless we see them stepping away from ATI, Gothard etc,, we have to assume they carry the same harmful beliefs and behaviors.

Re: the Duggars. I am really curious to know if TLC will edit them differently now that they have seen the good reaction that people have had to the less obviously scripted and controlled kids on the Bateses' show.

It was during an interview a while (maybe a few years) ago. The interviewer asked her to name her children and she said something like "oh Gil is much better at that than I am," and he took over.

Though, honestly, I don't think she was saying she didn't know her kids. I think she just defered to her husband to make him look good. I mean she does follow Gothard's teachings and all. It's all about making your headship look amazing, regardless of how you come across.

[19 cats and counting]

Similarities:

The oldest Duggar boy and the oldest Bates boy are married.

The second oldest and the third oldest Duggar girl are married.

The second oldest and the third oldest Bates girl are married.

Difference-- the oldest Duggar girl is single (as far as we know). The oldest Bates girl is in a courtship (and possibly hiding an engagement until it airs on TV) and has been for over a year.

[formergothardite]

I don't remember seeing that. When did that happen when she couldn't recall the names?

I have a much smaller family and I get names mixed up all the time. I even rotate in the poor dog's name on occasion.

I feel pretty certain Kelly knows who here children are, and like we have all observed the kids certainly seem more lively and comfortable around their parents than the Duggar kids. But I do think that Kelly's relationship with her older kids is different that with her younger ones. I feel like she is definitely more in a manager role with the younger ones, and delegates much of the work to raise them to others. I feel like with about Carlin on up, she and Gil really know the kids well, and from younger than Carlin, it is more like a full time day care where the kids are taught things, taken care of and even receive a decent amount of affection, but they are being "Group raised" instead of individually raised. I don't feel like I am explaining that right, but hopefully you know what I mean.

The Bates are more fun to watch, but as so many have said, that isn't necessarily a good thing. Unless we see them stepping away from ATI, Gothard etc,, we have to assume they carry the same harmful beliefs and behaviors.

Re: the Duggars. I am really curious to know if TLC will edit them differently now that they have seen the good reaction that people have had to the less obviously scripted and controlled kids on the Bateses' show.

It wasn't a case of her getting names mixed up, it was an interview where she was asked to name her children and she replied that she was unable to do so but that Gil could. Gil said that he could name them as long as it was oldest to youngest. I think Kelly could name the oldest but has tuned out the youngest and remembering their names is much harder for her. Hard to the point where she wouldn't even attempt to name them.

[Firiel]

It wasn't a case of her getting names mixed up, it was an interview where she was asked to name her children and she replied that she was unable to do so but that Gil could. Gil said that he could name them as long as it was oldest to youngest. I think Kelly could name the oldest but has tuned out the youngest and remembering their names is much harder for her. Hard to the point where she wouldn't even attempt to name them.

I can understand needing to name them all in an order. With 19, if you are just naming them randomly, when you get to 17 or 18, I imagine there would be a lot of "Did I mention Alyssa first or is she the one I'm leaving out?" Though it's weird that Gil said he could ONLY name them oldest to youngest as opposed to also being able to go youngest to oldest, oldest to youngest for boys and girls separately, etc.

Obviously, it's completely ridiculous and pretty horrifying that Kelly couldn't name them at all.

[karen77]

If you have so many kids that you can't be sure if you named them all if they aren't in order...you have too many kids.

[Firiel]

If you have so many kids that you can't be sure if you named them all if they aren't in order...you have too many kids.

Well, yeah. But I don't think needing to name them in an order means you don't know your kids in the same way not being able to name them at all does.

[ILoveJellybeans]

How can someone, even with so many kids, not be able to name them all? Theyre your kids. I could name pretty much everyone in my class at school, and none of them came out of my vagina. I can remember the names of various fundie family kids, and none of them came out of my vagina. I don't live with these fundie kids either, and I don't have any day to day contact with them. I cant believe someone can not keep track of a whole bunch of small humans they birthed.

[karen77]

How can someone, even with so many kids, not be able to name them all? Theyre your kids. I could name pretty much everyone in my class at school, and none of them came out of my vagina. I can remember the names of various fundie family kids, and none of them came out of my vagina. I don't live with these fundie kids either, and I don't have any day to day contact with them. I cant believe someone can not keep track of a whole bunch of small humans they birthed.

Maybe pregnancy/mommy brain really got to them!!! Or they just aren't that bright to begin with.

[Nic]

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I think when the producers were planning the Bates show, they thought how can we differentiate ourselves from 19AC? What would people want to see so they decided to play up on the happy go lucky factor. Yes, I am sure they are a bit more whimsical naturally than the Duggars, but I also think they are mugging it up to the cameras. Also definitely scripted moments like when Gil & Kelly plan the baby shower.

I cut Kelly a bit of slack because that is pressure to name all her kids on the spot. If she leaves out any... I always thought it was a bit weird when JB would "test" someone say Derick to name all the kids IN ORDER like it was a field sobriety test. It takes them from individuals into a one "Joshjanajohndavidjilljessa..." entity.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I think when the producers were planning the Bates show, they thought how can we differentiate ourselves from 19AC? What would people want to see so they decided to play up on the happy go lucky factor. Yes, I am sure they are a bit more whimsical naturally than the Duggars, but I also think they are mugging it up to the cameras. Also definitely scripted moments like when Gil & Kelly plan the baby shower.

I cut Kelly a bit of slack because that is pressure to name all her kids on the spot. If she leaves out any... I always thought it was a bit weird when JB would "test" someone say Derick to name all the kids IN ORDER like it was a field sobriety test. It takes them from individuals into a one "Joshjanajohndavidjilljessa..." entity.

I don't know about your first point. I think, even in what little we've seen of them on TLC, the family has always appeared happier and more emotionally secure than the Duggars. I think they're just naturally that way. But TLC doesn't like to show their "characters" as being "normal," TLC focuses on the "freak show" aspect. Up likes more of the "uplifting" aspect of programming. So they're just going to focus on different things.

As for the naming the children thing, I honestly don't think its that big of a deal. And anyone who claims they wouldn't give her as hard of a time if she missed a name as they do because she didn't try is lying. She would be torn to pieces if a child was forgotten. And the same things would be said about her being an awful mom. Even if, unlike Michelle, she can actually tell you about all of her children as they are now -- Michelle can just name the child and their birth story.

[zz22zz]

To clarify...19KAC and Bringing up Bates are filmed and produced by the same company. Figure 8 Films.

Jchelle and JB have mentioned many times, including in their books that THEY are in charge of EVERYTHING that is shown on television. They get final say on every edit and what is included in each episode. If you pay attention to the talking heads, it does come across like each episode is a "story" being narrated by one of them or Jill or Josh (you know the kids that drank the most Kool-Aid) and yes sometimes Anna but after all the Kellers afford their lavish trailer lifestyle (how on earth did their whole family fit in there??) they are Kool-Aid farmers!

Since they view it as a ministry I'm sure they feel showing their family life events as scripted filmed carefully packaged stories is okay. Like bible stories. (though that would imply that the bible contains generalizations and fictionalized accounts to get across a message and is NOT meant to be taken word for word as fact. :pink-shock: )

TLC is just the cable channel that airs the show and enjoys the advertising revenue.