Duggars Vs. Bates

[Kira]

I get people's reservations about suggesting the Bates family is all sunshine and roses. They have a lot of very serious problems with their beliefs and Gil has done some pretty bad things with IBLP.

But I think it is honestly very obvious that they have been better parents than Jim Bob and Michelle. Despite the messed up beliefs, the body and purity shame, the sheltering, the unhealthy food...their kids seem SO much more emotionally well adjusted and comfortable with themselves, and that is one of the most important parts of parenting IMO. When your kids are resilient, confident, and have a good sense of self worth, they can weather difficult things as an adult. I don't think the Duggar kids are any of those things. I don't think they have an ounce of self worth, honestly. They always seem like they are trying desperately hard to prove they are good enough and Christian enough.

The Bates parents did SOMETHING right. It doesn't excuse all the things they did WRONG. But I do think it's pretty obvious that the Bates kids feel loved and valued. They seem to all be genuinely very close and supportive of each other...I've never really gotten that impression from the Duggars, honestly, and I think part of it is because Jim Bob and Michelle pit the kids against each other.

???????

[eh02]

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They encourage them to tattle on each other and pull manipulative moves like the famous "give your sister your most cherished possession since she was mean to you" story with Jana. Those choices are NOT unintentional. They are beating it into their kids that their feelings are not important. Feel sad because someone hurt you? Feel mad because someone wronged you? Nope, not OK. We whisper "sorry" to each other and act like it never happened. That is not a healthy way to deal with your feelings.

Hell, even fighting is better than bottling everything up and being told the way you feel doesn't matter. At least when kids fight they are dealing with their emotions in SOME way, even if it's not the best way. I see the Bates kids casual bickering as a much healthier and more age-appropriate way of dealing with their emotions and any spats they have between each other than what the Duggars do, which is slap a smile on your face and act like everything's fine.

[SassyPants]

I do think some are giving JB and M.'s parenting tactics too much credence and attention. IMO, they both parent from the perspective of what is the easiest for them. I doubt there is any deep seated or thought out plan as to why and how they parent. Look to the lowest common denominator: what is easy for JB and M.

The entire jewelry box incident probably went something like this:

Meek little Jana going to mama about the bully Jessa taking her possession.

Tired and heavily pregnant (and likely thinking, STFU) told Jana to set the example and be the better person...and it looks like Joe could use a diaper change. Can you help mama out?

[eh02]

I don't know, I do think parts of it are intentional - especially from Michelle. She comes across as a woman who has never really had much intrinsic self worth, to the point where I think she actually considers it a negative, "prideful" character trait to love yourself and feel confident communicating your wants and needs. She seems to equate confidence with selfishness and has beaten that into her kids. If there's anything the Duggars have thoroughly stamped on those kids, it's "Yourself Last." The Bates parents might have similar beliefs, but they definitely do not communicate it in such a negative way.

Sometimes I think Michelle really resents her own kids when they are happy or more confident than she is. I think that is why she always loved Jill, who was so desperate to please everyone and was very sensitive, and probably pretty insecure as a child. And it also would explain why Michelle tends to look kind of awkward interacting with Jessa, who is so assertive. Michelle almost seemed afraid to open up her mouth to disagree with Jessa when they were talking about the wedding. It was like Jessa was Queen Bee and Michelle was intimidated by her.

[SassyPants]

I don't know, I do think parts of it are intentional - especially from Michelle. She comes across as a woman who has never really had much intrinsic self worth, to the point where I think she actually considers it a negative, "prideful" character trait to love yourself and feel confident communicating your wants and needs. She seems to equate confidence with selfishness and has beaten that into her kids. If there's anything the Duggars have thoroughly stamped on those kids, it's "Yourself Last." The Bates parents might have similar beliefs, but they definitely do not communicate it in such a negative way.

Sometimes I think Michelle really resents her own kids when they are happy or more confident than she is. I think that is why she always loved Jill, who was so desperate to please everyone and was very sensitive, and probably pretty insecure as a child. And it also would explain why Michelle tends to look kind of awkward interacting with Jessa, who is so assertive. Michelle almost seemed afraid to open up her mouth to disagree with Jessa when they were talking about the wedding. It was like Jessa was Queen Bee and Michelle was intimidated by her.

Well, if putting yourself LAST was so important they missed the mark.

Look at Jill's reliance on Jana: the bridesmaid's dresses, the Nepali dinner, the ties. Sitting there snacking at the bridal tea while Jana was sewing. Did anyone even offer Jana a cup of tea? Not that we saw. How is that putting yourself last?

What about those bridal and baby registries? How does greed dovetail with putting yourself last?

From my vantage point, those kids are on par with most others, very me-centric.

And I know that the kids have been hosed by their parents, but my point is JB and M have not turned out any better product than the vast majority of people. They act as if they have this parenting and family thing nailed down, yet their results are no better, and at times far worse, than the balance.

Sometimes I think JB and M are just blowing smoke- to keep the gravy train rolling.

[Duggor]

With some of the Duggar and Bates girls pregnant, it kept me wondering if Gil and Kelly or Jim Bob and Michelle will get the most grand babies? And will there be more Duggar weddings or Bates weddings in the future? :think:

[lilith]

I don't see any of the currently married Bates offspring going quiverful, Erin and Chad cause of Erin's clotting issues, Zach and Whitney and Allyssa and John just don't strike me as couples who want a child every 18 months.

Josh and Anna and Jill and Derick, on the other hand, are anxious for "as many children as God will give them". We're yet to see Jessa and Ben's attitudes. So my prediction is that the Duggars will stay ahead in the grand baby numbers.

[ariel9]

Ok on the bates episode where they rematches their season and commented I thought Zach and whit said something about bradley having a lot of brothers and sisters. However to win the grandbaby competition JB has to let more people court and marry.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think that neither family will have a kid who reaches 19. Only a few from each family will reach 10. It isn't a very sustainable lifestyle, and I think most of them will drift away from fundamentalism and only have 5 at the most.

[iknowright]

I think the most visible children from these families will tow the line of QF with the exception of Erin. Even though her husband and father are full blown ATI/IBLP authorities, her medical issues may trump multiple pregnancies, but I think still I can see if medication works for her issues, then they could still be QF.

Jill & Derick - Jill will chart and do everything she can to get pregnant as often as possible. I am reminded that Michelle had really began weaning her babies early - she was not solely breastfeeding and I'm pretty sure I remember that she was big into scheduled feedings (which limits breast milk production). I also remember that at six months, the babies would be moved into the girls' room (their new "buddy"). Yes, I know you can get pregnant breastfeeding exclusively, but I'm pretty sure with the set up Michelle had, she was mostly weaning them to ensure getting pregnant again. If Jill does the same, she too will end up with loads of pregnancies.

Josh and Anna - four children in six years is alot. I just think she doesn't get pregnant as easily while breastfeeding. I think for her, it does affect fertility. I think she wants a huge quiver. I can't read him so I don't know about Josh.

Jessa - if she's not pregnant now, I'm stunned and I think there would be a medical reason for that. I do not believe she is using BC. I also think her talk about adoption is to win the public over since there was a backlash against Michelle and JB "open to adoption" when it is so clear that Gothard teaches against adoption. It's just another ploy to make them appear normal and the hide the teachings of Gothard. I predict while the show is centering on she and Ben, either they will have tons of kids or not be able to and pursue adoption. When the show dies, I DO think she will limit the size of her family and keep that secret.

I also seem to remember that Kelly with some of those last pregnancies did everything she could to get pregnant and sustain them. I just don't know how far her married children will tow the line. Even if they move far away, I don't know that distance just erases the Gothard dogma or the damage it does. I mean, a tell tale sign is how many of her married children have pursued pregnancy quickly after marriage?

In a few years, once the shows have gone away, then I think several of the kids will pursue different educational choices, churches, and careers. Perhaps even some of the girls will go for degrees or marry outside of QF, Gothard, etc...and have normal lives and family sizes. But right now, I think the ones in the spotlights pursue marriage, pregnancies, and children.

[HarleyQuinn]

If any of the Duggars and Bates marry each other, that will be the one that has 19 kids. :lol:

So basically Joe and Carlin lol

[19 cats and counting]

Bates

Their one (older) kid (Michael/Michaella) likely to be the most fundie as an adult is 25 and not yet married (but is courting and possibly engaged). She'll be pregnant shortly after her wedding barring medical issues. If the Bates want to 1 up the Duggars on grandchildren, then they need to get her married ASAP to add another mother to the mix.

I see Whit being pregnant again by Bradley's first birthday. Not sure how many she will have, but she's young (21?) and has the potential to have a brood.

Erin I don't see having too many given her medical issues and the difficulty she has carrying a baby to term. I think she initially wanted a larger family, but she and Chad see the realities. I'm incredibly happy for her that she has a husband that understands her medical issues. Their family size will most likely be in the hands of doctors.

Alyssa surprised me when she made the announcement given that she seems so impatient with her siblings. Maybe her own flesh and blood will be different. I'm about 50/50 as to whether she'll be expecting #2 by Allie's first birthday.

Duggars

Josh/Anna-- The Duggars have the head start on grandchildren because Josh and Anna had a 5 year head start. However, each kid seems to be a little further apart than the last two. I expect M5 to be a fall 2017 baby. As for them being in DC now, I fully expect Johannah to be shipped off there when M4 is born to be a mother's helper.

Jill/Derick--- Like Michael Bates, I see Jill as the biggest Kool-Aid drinker of the bunch. It took them no time to conceive Baby Dilly (although he seems to be taking his sweet time) I expect #2 to be announced before year's end. I doubt she'll be overwhelmed because she'll just call on the Lost Girls or her Buddy team to help her.

Jessa/Ben--- I'm surprised Jessa has not made an announcement (although I expect one after Dilly's arrival). I'll believe the adoption thing when I see it but these two are not qualified to adopt right now. I'd much rather they focus on Ben's employment/education so he can provide for a growing brood.

Right now the Duggars have the grandchildren edge at 3 (2 on the way) to the Bates 1 (2 on the way). THat could be surpassed as soon as next year though as the Bates have one more on the verge of marriage. I see Jill and Jessa making announcements by year's end (but not Anna). On the Bates side, Whitney will definitely make one, Alyssa's on the fence and likely not Erin.

[VelociRapture]

I don't see any of the currently married Bates offspring going quiverful, Erin and Chad cause of Erin's clotting issues, Zach and Whitney and Allyssa and John just don't strike me as couples who want a child every 18 months.

Josh and Anna and Jill and Derick, on the other hand, are anxious for "as many children as God will give them". We're yet to see Jessa and Ben's attitudes. So my prediction is that the Duggars will stay ahead in the grand baby numbers.

I say the jury is still out on the Dillards. They'll have their first any time now and neither of them truly knows what to expect - Jill doesn't know what its like to be the one in labor (and likely doesn't know the cost involved in raising a mega family) and Derick doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with infants (as well as the cost factor). It's possible that they'll have a lot, but also possible they won't. Same goes for the Seewalds.

I don't see the Websters having a huge family, but I do think they'll have a larger than average number of kids. Same with Whit and Zach. I think Anna would love having a huge family, but it may not happen due to the spacing between kids. And I get the feeling that Josh may secretly be relieved about that - I have no doubt that he loves his kids and is getting excited about M4, but he does seem to be stressed out lately.

I can see Michael and Brandon having a very large family, but only if they are physically able to have that many children when starting in their mid to late 20s. And I may be wrong here, but I just get the feeling that Jana would like a larger family as well - I honestly don't know why, but I get the feeling that she may be more devout than we all realize. She may also be more practical though. No way to know for sure because we don't have enough information about her.

[withaj]

I say the jury is still out on the Dillards. They'll have their first any time now and neither of them truly knows what to expect - Jill doesn't know what its like to be the one in labor (and likely doesn't know the cost involved in raising a mega family) and Derick doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with infants (as well as the cost factor). It's possible that they'll have a lot, but also possible they won't. Same goes for the Seewalds.

I don't see the Websters having a huge family, but I do think they'll have a larger than average number of kids. Same with Whit and Zach. I think Anna would love having a huge family, but it may not happen due to the spacing between kids. And I get the feeling that Josh may secretly be relieved about that - I have no doubt that he loves his kids and is getting excited about M4, but he does seem to be stressed out lately.

I can see Michael and Brandon having a very large family, but only if they are physically able to have that many children when starting in their mid to late 20s. And I may be wrong here, but I just get the feeling that Jana would like a larger family as well - I honestly don't know why, but I get the feeling that she may be more devout than we all realize. She may also be more practical though. No way to know for sure because we don't have enough information about her.

I disagree about Jill not understanding the cost of a mega family -- I think she absolutely does. As one of the older kids, she remembers the days in the ranch home and knows how tight things can be. She has been there on the many, many $700+ grocery trips to Aldi, even back to those days. However, given the family's ongoing financial gains from the show and the growing Duggar real estate empire, I suspect she's not altogether worried about being able to provide for a big family. Derick's already a step ahead -- a real job, y'know -- and I bet his income is already above what Jim Bob's was with half a dozen little ones already underfoot.

[clueliss]

Regarding the jewelry box incident involving Jana & Jessa.

It happened roughly when Jana was about 8-10 and Jessa was about 6. They shared a bunk bed. Jessa on bottom. The girls speculated in telling the story that they were put together likely because they did not get along. Jessa repeatedly kicked Jana's bed and did other things to annoy her at bed time. Jana did what she was supposed to and told her parents. Jessa was disciplined. But would go back to doing it again.

So that wise sage Michelle told Jana something along the lines of do something to really make her like you that she wouldn't expect. Jana and Jill had matching pink jewelry boxes. Jana gave it to Jessa with some kiddie pieces of jewelry.

Jessa didn't take anything per the story int he girls' book. Although I will interpret that Jessa was rewarded for being a stinkpot but 'felt bad' because she knew how much the box meant to Jana.

[19 cats and counting]

I say the jury is still out on the Dillards. They'll have their first any time now and neither of them truly knows what to expect - Jill doesn't know what its like to be the one in labor (and likely doesn't know the cost involved in raising a mega family) and Derick doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with infants (as well as the cost factor). It's possible that they'll have a lot, but also possible they won't. Same goes for the Seewalds.

I don't see the Websters having a huge family, but I do think they'll have a larger than average number of kids. Same with Whit and Zach. I think Anna would love having a huge family, but it may not happen due to the spacing between kids. And I get the feeling that Josh may secretly be relieved about that - I have no doubt that he loves his kids and is getting excited about M4, but he does seem to be stressed out lately.

I can see Michael and Brandon having a very large family, but only if they are physically able to have that many children when starting in their mid to late 20s. And I may be wrong here, but I just get the feeling that Jana would like a larger family as well - I honestly don't know why, but I get the feeling that she may be more devout than we all realize. She may also be more practical though. No way to know for sure because we don't have enough information about her.

I see the Dillards having a larger family than the Seewalds. Jill is the biggest Kool-AId drinker of the older girls and she (and family) have been feeding it to Derick and then giving it to him to bathe and swim in. I think there's a reason they got the McMansion from JB as opposed to the Seewalds. He gave the larger house to the couple who was more likely to fill it. And if Jill gets overwhelmed, she calls on her buddy team (who already was at the ultrasound). Jenny will be changing diapers in no time. I think the only thing that will stop the Dillards from having a large family is medical issues (a la Erin). Of the J-Slaves Jill's the most maternal and I see that continuing to married life.

Jessa (to the extent she's been allowed) has marched to the beat of her own drum. Does she have some extreme views that she's not afraid to share? Yes. She never struck me as very maternal and probably resented the buddy team thing (who were hers?). I definitely don't see her bringing them to an ultrasound. Also Ben's the oldest in a large family and he's seen the struggles and probably been called on to help with the youngers. If they're secretly using birth control, good for them. But I actually expect an announcement soon and I'm surprised we haven't seen one.

[Justme]

Boob:

3 kids married, 16 at home

no courtships in site

5 grandkids, 1 on the way

probably no more for a while as Josh just had Meredith, Jill just had Israel

Gill:

4 kids married, 15 at home

no courtships in site

3 grandkids,

possibly 2 more in the not so far future as Mikey is just married and Bradley will be a year in Oct.

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

I would NOT be surprised if Boob "encouraged" another marriage soon..... JD?!? :whistle:

[FloraKitty35]

Boob:

3 kids married, 16 at home

no courtships in site

5 grandkids, 1 on the way

probably no more for a while as Josh just had Meredith, Jill just had Israel

Gill:

4 kids married, 15 at home

no courtships in site

3 grandkids,

possibly 2 more in the not so far future as Mikey is just married and Bradley will be a year in Oct.

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

I would NOT be surprised if Boob "encouraged" another marriage soon..... JD?!? :whistle:

If Josh had Meredith in the literal sense, I bet his views on contraception and/or abortion would "evolve".

[CorruptionInc.]

Boob:

3 kids married, 16 at home

no courtships in site

5 grandkids, 1 on the way

probably no more for a while as Josh just had Meredith, Jill just had Israel

Gill:

4 kids married, 15 at home

no courtships in site

3 grandkids,

possibly 2 more in the not so far future as Mikey is just married and Bradley will be a year in Oct.

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

I would NOT be surprised if Boob "encouraged" another marriage soon..... JD?!? :whistle:

Boob was trying to catch up, but it wasn't God's will!

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Boob:

3 kids married, 16 at home

no courtships in site

5 grandkids, 1 on the way

probably no more for a while as Josh just had Meredith, Jill just had Israel

Gill:

4 kids married, 15 at home

no courtships in site

3 grandkids,

possibly 2 more in the not so far future as Mikey is just married and Bradley will be a year in Oct.

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

I would NOT be surprised if Boob "encouraged" another marriage soon..... JD?!? :whistle:

I wouldn't be surprised if it takes the Duggars a while to find appropriate matches for their children unless they really reexamine the way their children find and date people (I'm not holding my breath) after the whole Josh thing and the whole losing the show thing.

[Free Them All]

Gil and Kelly need to keep Nathan and all their children away from Jim Bob and Michelle.

[singsingsing]

I was just thinking about the Duggars vs. Bates spreadsheet I made a few months back. I was giving/subtracting points from them for various reasons. It's pointless now - because of dear old Josh, the Duggars are losing by a hundred points at least...

[Georgiana]

I was just thinking about the Duggars vs. Bates spreadsheet I made a few months back. I was giving/subtracting points from them for various reasons. It's pointless now - because of dear old Josh, the Duggars are losing by a hundred points at least...

Not only have the Duggars fallen, the Bates have shot up! I feel like even without the Josh scandals, the Bates would soon be taking the lead due to their charisma, cute and seemly healthy couples, adorable grandbabies, and actually appealing social media presence.

I'm on here, I know how dangerous and appalling the Bates' beliefs are, I know they are wolves in sheep's clothing...but even knowing all this, it is gosh darn HARD not to like them!

[HereticHick]

I know the Bates are dangerous--but I still can't stop hoping that Joseph Duggar has returned to Crown College for the fall semester & is living with the Bates. [sure, it would be better if he were in a dorm, but anyplace is better than the Duggar compound right now] And I'd love for him to bring some siblings along with him.

[Alexa]

I was just thinking about the Duggars vs. Bates spreadsheet I made a few months back. I was giving/subtracting points from them for various reasons. It's pointless now - because of dear old Josh, the Duggars are losing by a hundred points at least...

Good 'ol Josh has really sunk the Duggar ship. I would pay to be a fly on the wall when Jim talks about him privately now. The Duggars may talk a good game of forgiveness, but I would imagine the reality is they are all very resentful and angry at Josh for ruining their gravy train.