Bringing Up Bates

[19 cats and counting]

She got her ears pierced after she moved out and says everyone has to make their own rules as they start their own households.

.

I find this very hard to believe about Alyssa because in her wedding photos, she's wearing some very loud, dangly earrings. Perhaps they were clip ons?

I'll have to pour through her instagram and look for evidence.

As someone who's struggled having pierced ears (and can't due to infections), I remember all too well being limited on what kind of earrings we could wear in the first 6 months (studs only).

[Sister Mozz]

I haven't watched the full episodes, but this web exclusive on Katie's birthday celebration made me really sad:

http://www.uptv.com/videos/bringing-up- ... -exclusive (Not breaking the link because it's the UP website)

The reason it made me sad was because they talked about how often Katie "gives up her right" to do activities because someone else wants to do them more than she does, and how she chooses to stay home and help Kelly instead of going out with the others. Maybe she really is that generous and good-hearted, but I sincerely hope it's not because she somehow feels less worthy or that other people are more important than she is. Hopefully also there's no guilt from the whole "Mom needs help" thing. It could be that she is naturally more of a mother hen type or a homebody, but if I were her parent I would be concerned. It's one thing to be helpful, another thing to consider yourself of lesser value than other people. :(

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I haven't watched the full episodes, but this web exclusive on Katie's birthday celebration made me really sad:

http://www.uptv.com/videos/bringing-up- ... -exclusive (Not breaking the link because it's the UP website)

The reason it made me sad was because they talked about how often Katie "gives up her right" to do activities because someone else wants to do them more than she does, and how she chooses to stay home and help Kelly instead of going out with the others. Maybe she really is that generous and good-hearted, but I sincerely hope it's not because she somehow feels less worthy or that other people are more important than she is. Hopefully also there's no guilt from the whole "Mom needs help" thing. It could be that she is naturally more of a mother hen type or a homebody, but if I were her parent I would be concerned. It's one thing to be helpful, another thing to consider yourself of lesser value than other people. :(

I'm not going to lie, when they said that, she looked upset. I mean it could be that she doesn't like to be on the spot, but it really looks like she's swallowing hard to hide her real feelings. She shouldn't be made to feel "special" because she's always willing to give up the good things in life. Someone needs to step forward and make sure that girl goes out and actually has fun.

[Closed Womb]

How interesting... And unfortunate. I hope it was just a bad situation rather than a glimpse of how he is all the time... All the married Bates children have seemed to make out well with the partner they chose. I would hate for Michael to be the exception and end up in an unhappy marriage**!

I thought he looked more shocked than irritated.

It did really warm my heart when girl Michael was talking with Gil and said she waited on God and she really did get the best. When I was a church goer (unlike Michael, I was an un-beautiful woman looking for a Christian husband, so I didn't meet anyone) it really was painful to be overlooked. So many people in her situation would have settled, but it sounds like she didn't. I hope they're very happy together.

(For those that are interested, my beliefs changed over time, and I began specifically looking for a husband that was not a devout Christian. In my mid 30's I also found "the best".)

[calimojo]

I think what Kelly said to Katie was kind of messed up. It really did feel like she was not only praising, but encouraging poor Katie to be the Cinderella of the family. I get the whole idea of teaching your children to not be selfish and to learn the rewards of helping others, but to not also teach the importance of balance is so harmful. In order to be effective in helping others, having "a servant's heart" and so on, you also have to know when you need to care for yourself, you need to learn to have down time and some fun. If not, then eventually that servant's heart will turn bitter and resentful. (think of the stereotypical mean "nun" as an example of what happens when pleasure and relaxation is completely sacrificed in the name of service)

[formergothardite]

I think what Kelly said to Katie was kind of messed up. It really did feel like she was not only praising, but encouraging poor Katie to be the Cinderella of the family. I get the whole idea of teaching your children to not be selfish and to learn the rewards of helping others, but to not also teach the importance of balance is so harmful. In order to be effective in helping others, having "a servant's heart" and so on, you also have to know when you need to care for yourself, you need to learn to have down time and some fun. If not, then eventually that servant's heart will turn bitter and resentful. (think of the stereotypical mean "nun" as an example of what happens when pleasure and relaxation is completely sacrificed in the name of service)

It is all part of the JOY(Jesus, Others, Yourself) that the Duggars and Gothard teach. Of course, this only seems to apply to the children, the parents in both families seem to put themselves before their children.

[calimojo]

a few pages back, people have wondered about if Erin and Chad are possibly being judged by their religious co-horts for their fertility problems. It got me thinking, Isn't one of Gothards' or perhaps Phillips teachings about the Sins of the Fathers being visited upon the children? I thought this was one reason why some of the fundies are not in favor of adoption.

Well, it kind of made me wonder if there are some that would hold Kelly and Gil responsible for the problem. Maybe Kelly and Gil have sinned and now poor Erin is being visited by that sin, and is possibly barren? It is all sick and twisted, I know, but It would break my heart to think Erin or any young fundie daughter, raised in that culture would be blamed as being unworthy of a blessing from God in the form of children.

Then again, given that Gothard himself never had children, perhaps their ideology allows for some people who are so special, that they will be blessed in different ways, than by just having children. Certainly Gothard has had to justify his single, childless status as a result of him being so busy doing God's work, that he had to sacrifice that part, because he had an even higher calling.

[feministxtian]

Just watched the second episode. I am glad to see that the kids are allowed to branch out from the house rules a bit once married, even if it is just watching TV and getting their ears pierced. I was also happy to see Kelly and Gil say that their rules are for their house...pretty typical parents "under our roof you'll do as we say". They may not like it if the kids decide to do differently once they're married but at least they are stating the possibility of change vs. the Duggars who seem to think their kids will follow all of their rules till the end of time.

Just my opinion, but the Bates do seem much more down to earth/realistic than the Duggars. And so much more likeable!!!!!

Re: the bolded above. My kids are grown...and when they are in my house, the house rules still apply. Visiting for a day is one thing...I usually just live and let live. But, on the occasion when the children have returned "to the nest" due to some life upheaval, they have to obey the house rules as a condition of staying. For me, it's a respect thing. I am letting you come home to get back on your feet instead of leaving you to fall on your face. So...you will respect the home that I am providing. My rules are fairly simple...and when the kids are really up a creek, I don't even charge them rent. However the kids and I both know what is expected, and it's really not that much. If it's dirty, clean it. If it's empty, fill it. If it's out of place, put it back, if its full (and clean), empty it (the dishwasher, washer, dryer). If it's full and dirty, empty it (trash cans). That's about it.

So...I can definitely see the "my house, my rules" thing even for adult children. It doesn't have anything to do with power, but everything to do with respect.

[LittleOleMe]

Certainly Gothard has had to justify his single, childless status as a result of him being so busy doing God's work, that he had to sacrifice that part, because he had an even higher calling.

People aren't allowed to date court while attending the classes and camps and such at IBLP/ATI. Maybe his justification is that he, too, has to remain single because he is in charge of and running these things?? :shrug:

On a side note, Kelly had no problem talking about all the stuff she had to take in order to keep a pregnancy going. It didn't seem like she was being punished (from her perspective). That makes me really want to believe that no one in that family is thinking Erin is being punished for whatever reason. But I can see someone like JB saying to his girls "this is why you don't need college and a job. Erin went to school and now she teaches piano lessons and she can't get pregnant." Which is beyond wrong.

Did anyone else notice that Erin said that at the end of the first episode?? "I've been married for over a year and I can't get pregnant". She didn't say she has miscarriages, she said she can't get pregnant.

[formergothardite]

Gothard said his mother didn't approve the woman he wanted to marry. :roll: That was his excuse for being single. It had absolutely nothing to do with him surrounding himself with young teen girls.

[calimojo]

People aren't allowed to date court while attending the classes and camps and such at IBLP/ATI. Maybe his justification is that he, too, has to remain single because he is in charge of and running these things?? :shrug:

On a side note, Kelly had no problem talking about all the stuff she had to take in order to keep a pregnancy going. It didn't seem like she was being punished (from her perspective). That makes me really want to believe that no one in that family is thinking Erin is being punished for whatever reason. But I can see someone like JB saying to his girls "this is why you don't need college and a job. Erin went to school and now she teaches piano lessons and she can't get pregnant." Which is beyond wrong.

Did anyone else notice that Erin said that at the end of the first episode?? "I've been married for over a year and I can't get pregnant". She didn't say she has miscarriages, she said she can't get pregnant.

Oh dear, I would hope he wouldn't do that.

I agree that perhaps no one would be blaming, but I guess I am not sure how you are supposed to not feel bad if "God hasn't blessed you with children" when that seems to be the most important achievement of a woman raised in that culture. It has to make you wonder if you are a disappointment to this God, who shows his love by sending blessing after blessing to your uterus.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Re: the bolded above. My kids are grown...and when they are in my house, the house rules still apply. Visiting for a day is one thing...I usually just live and let live. But, on the occasion when the children have returned "to the nest" due to some life upheaval, they have to obey the house rules as a condition of staying. For me, it's a respect thing. I am letting you come home to get back on your feet instead of leaving you to fall on your face. So...you will respect the home that I am providing. My rules are fairly simple...and when the kids are really up a creek, I don't even charge them rent. However the kids and I both know what is expected, and it's really not that much. If it's dirty, clean it. If it's empty, fill it. If it's out of place, put it back, if its full (and clean), empty it (the dishwasher, washer, dryer). If it's full and dirty, empty it (trash cans). That's about it.

So...I can definitely see the "my house, my rules" thing even for adult children. It doesn't have anything to do with power, but everything to do with respect.

It wasn't mentioned like "oh when you're going to live in my house," it was mentioned as "when the children come home for ANY reason." And there's a huge difference between keeping things clean/being respectful of others in the space and leaving your individuality at the door.

[LovelyLuna]

I REALLY hope that if Erin can’t carry a baby to term they won’t make her just keep miscarrying. If she has had 3 miscarriages in the last year, she could easily have 60 over the next two decades. Other then using birth control or being celibate there is no stoping it. Please, Please G-d let her truly have a kind husband that puts her before the cult BS.

[calimojo]

It wasn't mentioned like "oh when you're going to live in my house," it was mentioned as "when the children come home for ANY reason." And there's a huge difference between keeping things clean/being respectful of others in the space and leaving your individuality at the door.

I really don't remember it that way. I took it as her saying in their home they had their rules and when the kids leave they can make their own rules, but they hoped the core values would not change much.

I did not get the impression that they expected the adult kids to return to complete house rules again. So if Alyssa wears pants now and then I don't think they would ban her from the house.

IN some ways, I do understand that it is respectful for adult children to abide by house rules when returning for a visit to some extent. And I think it is also important for parents and adult children to have honest discussions about this situation. When There are still younger kids in the family, parents may have stricter expectations of their visiting adult children, than if all the kids are adults.

For example, if there are a lot of minor kids in the house, Parents might not allow an adult child to sleep with their significant other when they are visiting. But if all the kids are now grown, the parents might not really care too much about adult children having their Significant others stay with them.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

My mom didn't let me sleep in the same room as my live in boyfriend (later my husband) when I visited her. Even when I was pregnant. I thought it was stupid but it was her house.

[LittleOleMe]

I get that it's her house, but I feel like that is disrespectful to you and your relationship, especially if you're pregnant.

[amyand4]

It looks like Erin could carry to term but she would have to go on Lovenox when pregnant. Its actually good she knows this because she could be at risk for a blood clot in the future. I know when I had a pulmonary embolism they asked me if I had had more then 2 miscarriages.

[Rachel333]

I REALLY hope that if Erin can’t carry a baby to term they won’t make her just keep miscarrying. If she has had 3 miscarriages in the last year, she could easily have 60 over the next two decades. Other then using birth control or being celibate there is no stoping it. Please, Please G-d let her truly have a kind husband that puts her before the cult BS.

I hadn't thought about that possibility. I don't doubt there are fundie women who miscarry over and over because they can't stay pregnant but won't use birth control because it thwart's God's will. How utterly horrible. I really hope that doesn't happen to Erin.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

A family friend decided in her 40's that birth control was wrong (directly influenced by the Duggars) and after her husband had his vasectomy reversed she did have a few more kids but also went through multiple miscarriages. She hemorrhaged and came very close to death several times, but still believed it would be wrong to prevent pregnancy. It was very scary and was one of the first things that made me realize how dangerous the Duggars' agenda could be.

[LittleOleMe]

I hadn't thought about that possibility. I don't doubt there are fundie women who miscarry over and over because they can't stay pregnant but won't use birth control because it thwart's God's will. How utterly horrible. I really hope that doesn't happen to Erin.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

A family friend decided in her 40's that birth control was wrong (directly influenced by the Duggars) and after her husband had his vasectomy reversed she did have a few more kids but also went through multiple miscarriages. She hemorrhaged and came very close to death several times, but still believed it would be wrong to prevent pregnancy. It was very scary and was one of the first things that made me realize how dangerous the Duggars' agenda could be.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Your friend wouldn't be the midwife they converted would she?? That is terrifying though.

[Ursula]

I haven't watched the full episodes, but this web exclusive on Katie's birthday celebration made me really sad:

http://www.uptv.com/videos/bringing-up- ... -exclusive (Not breaking the link because it's the UP website)

The reason it made me sad was because they talked about how often Katie "gives up her right" to do activities because someone else wants to do them more than she does, and how she chooses to stay home and help Kelly instead of going out with the others. Maybe she really is that generous and good-hearted, but I sincerely hope it's not because she somehow feels less worthy or that other people are more important than she is. Hopefully also there's no guilt from the whole "Mom needs help" thing. It could be that she is naturally more of a mother hen type or a homebody, but if I were her parent I would be concerned. It's one thing to be helpful, another thing to consider yourself of lesser value than other people. :(

Wow... :(

FREE KATIE!

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I REALLY hope that if Erin can’t carry a baby to term they won’t make her just keep miscarrying. If she has had 3 miscarriages in the last year, she could easily have 60 over the next two decades. Other then using birth control or being celibate there is no stoping it. Please, Please G-d let her truly have a kind husband that puts her before the cult BS.

I'm fairly certain that Erin and Chad are smart enough to know when to stop. IF it comes to her not being able to carry to term, I'm sure that her family would understand as well. I don't think anyone is going to force her to miscarry 60 times.

[BullyJBG]

My mom didn't let me sleep in the same room as my live in boyfriend (later my husband) when I visited her. Even when I was pregnant. I thought it was stupid but it was her house.

I have heard of parents who decide that; that unmarried couples not sleep in the same room while visiting. My parents concluded that if they decided that, they would never come home. Of course, in that case, couples were already living together. Though, being a firstborn, I know that's when it's hardest. When it's the lastborn, there isn't anyone else that needs a good example set for them.

I don't know how to take the Zach & Whitney kissed before the wedding thing, except to be proud of them for admitting that they slipped. I think that's how it went; they would've got caught up in the moment; probably at Sonic, and then went "oops we weren't supposed to do that". They may have tried to keep it secret for awhile then found it too easy to slip again and finally had to confess. Or else confessed right away. I don't know. But I don't think it was anything like, they deliberately gave their chaperone more and more water and took advantage of the moment when said chaperone had to go to the bathroom. I haven't been able to watch the episode yet but a "recap" said that they encouraged their siblings not to do what they did. Why? Maybe more moments of guilt that caused tension? But glad to not have any further regrets of memories of ex-kisses. I think that's why Gil and Kelly felt guilty; both said they wish they'd only dated each other and therefore only kissed each other.

[Rachel333]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Your friend wouldn't be the midwife they converted would she?? That is terrifying though.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Yes, but fortunately she's done having kids now (and about to become a grandmother) and has two adorable little girls. Sadly they're not the only family we know who have been persuaded by the Duggars to adopt their views, though.

[eh02]

On a side note, Kelly had no problem talking about all the stuff she had to take in order to keep a pregnancy going. It didn't seem like she was being punished (from her perspective).

OK, I know there is obviously not going to be a logical answer to this question, but I have to kind of wonder how fundies reconcile "leaving pregnancy up to God" and having to take medication just to be able to successfully carry a child?

I mean, clearly I don't share their belief and I know that anyone who WANTS to become pregnant should use the medical options available to them to do so. But from THEIR perspective, it just doesn't make sense. You're not allowed to intervene to prevent a pregnancy because only God knows when you should be pregnant. But you're allowed to intervene if your body doesn't seem to be able to carry a child, or if you need fertility treatments or interventions like Erin? Or if you are aging like Kelly or Michelle and pregnancies become much more difficult or risky? What if God is telling you he DOESN'T want you to have children, and you are manipulating his "plan" for you just as much as someone who takes birth control? (FTR, I'm not religious so I don't think God has any plans in particular for my womb :D But as an ex-Baptist, man, this drives me crazy!)

[SassyPants]

OK, I know there is obviously not going to be a logical answer to this question, but I have to kind of wonder how fundies reconcile "leaving pregnancy up to God" and having to take medication just to be able to successfully carry a child?

I mean, clearly I don't share their belief and I know that anyone who WANTS to become pregnant should use the medical options available to them to do so. But from THEIR perspective, it just doesn't make sense. You're not allowed to intervene to prevent a pregnancy because only God knows when you should be pregnant. But you're allowed to intervene if your body doesn't seem to be able to carry a child, or if you need fertility treatments or interventions like Erin? Or if you are aging like Kelly or Michelle and pregnancies become much more difficult or risky? What if God is telling you he DOESN'T want you to have children, and you are manipulating his "plan" for you just as much as someone who takes birth control? (FTR, I'm not religious so I don't think God has any plans in particular for my womb :D But as an ex-Baptist, man, this drives me crazy!)

IMO, if one is truly leaving fertility up to God, one does not intervene because that would be altering God's plan. I have a difficult time believing anyone would feel this way...even Michelle accepted Magnesium (I believe she talked about how it made her feel) when she was preeclamptic during Josie's pregnancy.