Lori Alexander:Being treated poorly not grounds for divorce

[childerowland]

There are so many varying scenarios but the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches husband leadership and a wife's submission. Two equals accepting willingly their God given roles in a marriage, yet treating each other as equals and as Christians are commanded treat each other. How is that so horrible?

Except that treating each other as equals is NOT what either you or Lori advocate. You both believe that women should submit and that men should lead. You both believe that men have the right to punish their wives, even physically, if husbands deem it necessary (yes, pinning someone against the wall is physical). This is not equality in any way, shape or form.

And no, before you bring it up again, the husband/wife relationship is NOT the same as a parent/child relationship or a boss/employee relationship. I can't believe I'm having to spell this out to you, but:

in a parent/child relationship children require guidance, discipline and protection because they are immature, their brains haven't fully developed yet and they are not conversant with the ways of the world.

in a boss/employee relationship, the boss is only the superior to the employee in the context of the workplace. As soon as the employee leaves for the day, the boss has no power over him/her. A boss becomes a boss (in a fair organisation) because s/he has proven that s/he has the skills and experience to do the job. Organisations need bosses in order to oversee all the different areas of work being undertaken in the organisation.

in a husband/wife relationship, two people come together because they love each other (usually) and want to spend the rest of their lives with each other. Both are adults and neither needs a personal leader. Unless you believe that women are overgrown children (which, judging by your condescending attitude towards the members of this forum, I think you do), there is no reason why they would need a husband's 'leadership'.

[formergothardite]

I have no idea why or when LOri deletes any comments. You all seem to allocate far to much credit to me for what Lori does with her blog. I participate modestly most times, but exercise no control over what she does with it... as it is her blog.

I am amazed at how fats you all are to getting information from all over the Internet. Is there someone working for Google helping with this process? How do you even know what comments she deletes?

By the way, a more "nuanced approach" to submission was one of the original requests from one of my most ardent antagonists. Sometimes what I write is for particular people to read as we have done much of what she has requested, or at least moved that direction.

We cannot give up the authority of the scriptures, but be can give up any perceived Fundie dressing that may have creeped into our thinking or words. We can try to more fully express what we mean and how we apply, within reason, as the words would fill yup a book or two in explaining all that Biblical submission is or is not in definition and application. There are so many varying scenarios but the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches husband leadership and a wife's submission. Two equals accepting willingly their God given roles in a marriage, yet treating each other as equals and as Christians are commanded treat each other. How is that so horrible? And why is it so important for this group to try to impose its will upon women who choose to be submissive? Will you not fight for Choice?

Lori chooses to allow comments and then deletes them if she doesn't like them. This is why people see the comments that are later deleted. I didn't see Cabinet Man's comment because by the time I looked at her blog she had already deleted it. I did see another person had commented asking where his comment went and saying that it was a sin for women to work. She then deleted those comments. There is no google conspiracy, it is just that your wife hasn't set her comment setting where she moderates comments before they appear.

If you had been actually reading the last three threads you would have seen that there are women who are currently submissive wives living that way because they feel the Bible teaches that who have responded and said that they disagree with Lori's approach to giving advice or how extreme she is when she gives advice.

[ShesCrafty]

I apologize before you even read the above salex for calling you a liar. It is just so frustrating to have you and others continually accuse me of things that you full well I do not espouse. If you cannot grasp individual responsibility and ownership for one's life and where one places themselves, then one can never grow up and do the responsible thing. These people are regularly blaming everyone else without looking to what they can do in their own lives to prevent being in positions where life's evil can get at them.

Let me repeat... no matter how cold stoned drunk a person is NO ONE should ever take advantage of them for ANY reason. What they should, do is caringly call a cab and accompany them with a friend or two back to where the are safe. Then they should contact them the next day and ask them to be more responsible, so as not to put themselves in dangerous places with evil people, then go a step further and get stoned drunk. Read what other FJers said which is similar to what I said.

This is so common sense that your accusations make me think you have nothing to respond to me three responses, s you set up a stawman that you then push over ... all falsehoods, yet you pat yourself on the back for it. So strange o0 be dealing with people like this on this Forum, who all battle for what they believe is decency, yet cannot show much of it themselves. Is the pain from the past that deep that you truly cannot see clearly at all? Is wining at all costs no matter what the mischarcterizations a value you really aspire to, or do you need to rethink what you are doing here to me and on this Forum to get to your real values?

If one frequents bars, gets drunk, gets stoned, they have a huge responsibility in the outcome of what happens next.

You're lying. You have proven you are a rape apologist with you're own words. Quit trying to whitewash your reprehensible beliefs.

[Hane]

True anecdotes from my actual life:

Woman with a black eye and bruised face limps to her friend's door begging for help and protection, only to be told, "Charlie can't have done that to you! He's such a NICE GUY!"

Young woman in her twenties with two babies goes to her mother, desperate because her husband slaps her around and is a serial adulterer. Mom says, "But he's your HUSBAND! You can't just go and divorce him!"

Call me a wacky chick, but I can think of no better reason for a woman to divorce than being miserable. I've done it myself, and my child and I are infinitely happier. I grieve for all those lost years I spent being the Good Wife while waiting for a selfish jerk to turn himself around.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Lori's post still has me seeing red. No way is she fully qualified to advise women on their marriages, and not just because she isn't a trained therapist or counselor. She isn't qualified because she lacks integrity, compassion and nuanced critical thinking skills.

[moodygirl86]

Fuck Lori and the sanctimonious horse she rode in on. She likely doesn't hear of the so-called failures because what woman wants to come back and admit her divorce to such a judgmental know-it-all? It takes a lot of courage to end a marriage, and for many women it takes years of emotional/verbal abuse to finally call it quits. And even in mainstream society she'll feel judged. She'll be accused of ripping her family apart and will have to deflect attempts of guilting her into going back. I've seen it far too many times. Any woman with a shred of self-preservation would avoid the likes of Lori, who is a monster, like the plague in such a situation.

It took one of my closest friends ten years to leave such a relationship, and years of counseling to get her head back on straight, to come to realize she is worth something, and that she and her children deserve a better life. So what if he never hit her! No, he never put her in the hospital. He never did anything to warrant jail time. He just made a beautiful, intelligent, caring, wonderful, special woman doubt everything about herself and stomped her self-esteem into the ground. And it's not like it's stopped. They have children together. He fucks with her mind in every way he can to this day and constantly plays the kids against her, while she won't stoop to that level. She's stronger and doesn't let him control her anymore, thank goodness, and I shudder to think of the shell of a person she'd be if she were still with him. The day her divorce was final was one of the happiest days of my life. She's since remarried to a wonderful man, a man she tried to push away a few times because she didn't feel worthy of his love.

Squirrel, you could be describing my parents' marriage. That's why our so-called father doesn't see us, because Mum didn't want us growing up around his influence. I was only four when they split, but I still remember the raised voices and nasty words. As in your friend's case there was no physical violence. But Mum called his bluff one night and basically said "Well if I'm such a horrible wife, you know where the door is!" She'd waited 10 years to summon up the courage to say that. That's why I can't stand anyone shouting at me even now, it triggers off painful memories.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Patrice Lewis and her leg humpers over at Wing Nut Daily are their usual empathetic selves when it comes to domestic abuse.

wnd.com/2014/03/do-women-volunteer-for-abusive-relationships/

[BalconySmoker]

If Lori TRULY believes in headship, authority and the like....I am curious about something.

Do the elders in her church read and affirm everything that she is writing about in her blog? I want to know what authority she has to teach. Because if she isn't "teaching women" under the authority of her elders, then she is just full of crap per own own belief system and guilty of HERESY.

The Bible is clear, people can't just teach others because they feel like it. They must be CALLED to teach, and teach under the AUTHORITY of church leaders. Has Lori been called to be a leader to women in her church by her church leadership? Is she a deacon, or a women's ministry leader appointed by her elders?

Even the earliest Apostles and church leaders repeatedly and emphatically mentioned in their greetings (see the beginning of nearly every Epistle) that they were under authority. If people who actually saw, ate with and knew Jesus Christ personally needed to prove their authority to teach, why doesn't Lori?

Does she (or did she ever) attend North Coast Calvary? I seem to remember her mentioning that she attended the same church that Jon Foreman's dad pastored. If so, I have a REALLY hard time believing that a church who has a class SPECIFICALLY FOR DIVORCED PEOPLE on how to move forward after divorce would lend their credibility and authority to Lori. If not, don't mind me. But I've been to that church, and if these two go there then color me confused. They are not a fundie church and their teachings don't reflect anything Lori blabbers about on her blog.

Time to put up or shut up Lori, under what authority do you teach Christian women? If your elders truly have lent their credibility to your blog, then you are a teacher/leader in the church. In which case, scripture also says that people with leadership/teaching positions in the church are judged more harshly. Which means that even for that 2% for which her advice "doesn't count", she is still held responsible for the words nonetheless.

That's not my opinion, it's God's apparently.

Ken, I think Lori is able to answer this one herself. If she is indeed a teacher under the authority of her elders, then she is responsible for her own words and needs to explain herself on her own. That's how this works, according to the word of God. So save your bloviating.

[BalconySmoker]

And for the record, I don't actually expect her (or Ken) to respond to that honestly. But despite the anonymity of the internet, it's actually not all that anonymous. So I guess if she wants to lie and say that she is a respected teacher of women in her church, and given authority by her elders to teach Christian women she can knock herself out.

[formergothardite]

I might have misunderstood, but I thought Ken said they were "between churches" so that would mean that she was not under the authority of a church.

[salex]

I might have misunderstood, but I thought Ken said they were "between churches" so that would mean that she was not under the authority of a church.

THis is from last year , not sure about more recent

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/03/our-churchs-mentoring-program.html

[Coconut Flan]

I wonder if the "between churches" is because Lori outed the church they attended on her blog. It could be to throw people off and they really aren't changing or they are changing because people know where they were going or maybe they honestly are looking for a new church. I'm not leaning toward the latter one though.

I should have made notes, but I think somewhere she or Ken claims she's been doing this for ten years yet that post says four years. Somewhere else she says they've been going to that church for maybe five years. I need to write it down.

OK, Feb this year she says they've been going to Calvary Chapel about five years: lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/02/are-you-baptist-lutheran-methodist-etc.html. In 2013 she said she'd been mentoring there four years so she must have begun mentoring there about the time they began going there.

[ThisOlGirl]

I've heard Calvary Chapels can vary in terms of fundie-ness, so it's possible that the church is okay with the "wisdom" that Lori spews forth.

[Ken]

Thank you for your apology, and of course it's forgiven.

I don't think too many here wish you ill (some may; I do not), but I think many of us have strong reactions to the teachings that you and your wife espouse. And certainly my response may come from my history as an abuse survivor. I saw how it made my sister feel to have her face slapped so much that her nose was broken, and she was then tossed into a cold shower because the blood was gushing out everywhere. The bathroom looked like someone had slaughtered a pig. She and I remember the terror, the horror of that moment as if it were yesterday. It happened almost three decades ago. But the images are still crystal clear in my mind. Many other images are there, too, things I'd much rather forget.

I oppose physically correcting kids. I oppose physically correcting wives. I oppose using words to hurt people we love. I believe that families should be safe havens that are filled with love and respect for each member.

I am so sorry to hear about your sister and I would be the first person to jump onto that bathroom and do whatever I could to protect her from her husband if only I could. I detest men who use any force or meanness against their wife and children. I am with the group against abuse of any form, but as you know I do not see modest spankings as abuse in any way. If we thought our kids in any way did not know our love with spankings we would not have one them. All of our kids believe we spanked them out of love and concern for who they were to become. And they are became terrific.

I can see why you would be upset and protective with this story of your sister.

[Ken]

I've heard Calvary Chapels can vary in terms of fundie-ness, so it's possible that the church is okay with the "wisdom" that Lori spews forth.

Our church is not as Fundie as Lori is, but they always send the most difficult cases to her to mentor because they respect her results... almost 100% success in getting marriages healed. Our pastor teaches mutual submission and usually blasts men for all the issues in a marriage.

[Ken]

If Lori TRULY believes in headship, authority and the like....I am curious about something.

Do the elders in her church read and affirm everything that she is writing about in her blog? I want to know what authority she has to teach. Because if she isn't "teaching women" under the authority of her elders, then she is just full of crap per own own belief system and guilty of HERESY.

The Bible is clear, people can't just teach others because they feel like it. They must be CALLED to teach, and teach under the AUTHORITY of church leaders. Has Lori been called to be a leader to women in her church by her church leadership? Is she a deacon, or a women's ministry leader appointed by her elders?

Even the earliest Apostles and church leaders repeatedly and emphatically mentioned in their greetings (see the beginning of nearly every Epistle) that they were under authority. If people who actually saw, ate with and knew Jesus Christ personally needed to prove their authority to teach, why doesn't Lori?

Does she (or did she ever) attend North Coast Calvary? I seem to remember her mentioning that she attended the same church that Jon Foreman's dad pastored. If so, I have a REALLY hard time believing that a church who has a class SPECIFICALLY FOR DIVORCED PEOPLE on how to move forward after divorce would lend their credibility and authority to Lori. If not, don't mind me. But I've been to that church, and if these two go there then color me confused. They are not a fundie church and their teachings don't reflect anything Lori blabbers about on her blog.

Time to put up or shut up Lori, under what authority do you teach Christian women? If your elders truly have lent their credibility to your blog, then you are a teacher/leader in the church. In which case, scripture also says that people with leadership/teaching positions in the church are judged more harshly. Which means that even for that 2% for which her advice "doesn't count", she is still held responsible for the words nonetheless.

That's not my opinion, it's God's apparently.

Ken, I think Lori is able to answer this one herself. If she is indeed a teacher under the authority of her elders, then she is responsible for her own words and needs to explain herself on her own. That's how this works, according to the word of God. So save your bloviating.

The elders are aware of Lori's teaching and have made only one small request of her. They have no problem with what she teaches as it is a personal blog, and the leaders of the mentors group sends the toughest cases to Lori to mentor because of her almost 100% success rate in healing marriages. Our leaders are much more concerned that all who serve believe in the essentials rather than focus on this much smaller issues, like submission.

Our leaders do not make a mountain out of a mole hill like this group does. You would thin that women and children are being Killed every day the way you all act and write, when the reality is that n one is dying or being harmed by what the Bible teaches on these matters.

[ladyamylynn]

The elders are aware of Lori's teaching and have made only one small request of her. They have no problem with what she teaches as it is a personal blog, and the leaders of the mentors group sends the toughest cases to Lori to mentor because of her almost 100% success rate in healing marriages. Our leaders are much more concerned that all who serve believe in the essentials rather than focus on this much smaller issues, like submission.

Our leaders do not make a mountain out of a mole hill like this group does. You would thin that women and children are being Killed every day the way you all act and write, when the reality is that n one is dying or being harmed by what the Bible teaches on these matters.

Prove it. Or just go away, like you said you would when you flounced, Ken Alexander.

[lipstickgoalie]

The elders are aware of Lori's teaching and have made only one small request of her. They have no problem with what she teaches as it is a personal blog, and the leaders of the mentors group sends the toughest cases to Lori to mentor because of her almost 100% success rate in healing marriages. Our leaders are much more concerned that all who serve believe in the essentials rather than focus on this much smaller issues, like submission.

Our leaders do not make a mountain out of a mole hill like this group does. You would thin that women and children are being Killed every day the way you all act and write, when the reality is that n one is dying or being harmed by what the Bible teaches on these matters.

How are you judging 100% success Ken? That 100% of "problem women" become submissive and just stick it out? Or that the actual problem is remedied?

[lilith]

Ken - I asked this earlier, but my post has been lost in the thread.

What are your hopes for your daughters regarding family planning? I understand that any decision is between them and their husbands, but I am curious about what your personal wishes for them are.

I ask because more than once Lori has characterised the use of contraceptives as selfish and advised against using them, strictures that she didn't apply to herself due to her health issues. I assume she has shared those views with your daughters, but I'm more interested in your personal hopes

[Ken]

salex wrote:

There are millions of Stay at Home Wives and Mothers all over the USA. Some choose this from the time they marry, others when the kids are little, some stay home when the kids are teens, to guide them through those years. IF these women you know don’t want to be working, why are they? Feminism does not require women who don’t want to work to do so. Most of the time when I found myself in a place in my life that I wasn’t happy—my husband and I talked and within a year, I had moved to a different place in my life. The same is true of my husband. The “era†we live in does nothing to prevent people from being stay at home. Also, did these women talk to the men they are married to before they got married about what they wanted out of life? Do they talk to them now?

OH… The point is, feminism isn’t stopping any of the women you know from being stay at home wives.

Do you not know what a zero sum game is? Please give an example of one person having an equal right negatively impacts a true right of others. I suppose that freeing slaves could be seen as diminishing the rights of slaveholders, and making laws preventing sexual harassment diminishes the right of bosses to grab or demand sex of employees… but let’s hear a real world example where your rights are trampled by the rights of others. 2)

Also… are you among the group of people who somehow believe that people watching movies don’t understand the difference between fiction (movies) and reality? When was the last time you based anything on your life on anything you saw in a romantic comedy or an action adventure flick? Have you plotted some big drug deal or bank heist based on a movie you saw? Most movie makers (though not all) design the movies to meet the entertainment demands and desires of a general audience—so they can make money. Entertainment is probably more likely to reflect cultural change than to create it.

Do you think society has declined more than it has improved? Do you see change as decline, where it likely is just neutral. In a previous post I showed studies related to how affluent cultures with better working conditions for women leads to increased birthrates, how teen pregnancies were actually going down, as are divorces—how do you view this information in light of your belief that society is in decline? What is a measure of decline to you? There is saying “the older I get, the better I was…†and my observation is that the older people get, the more golden were “olden days.â€

Thank you. So based on this answer the main reason to ignore a happy and successful egalitarian marriage in favor of submission, is to earn blessings from God, likely in the form of a happy marriage.

So, can people be in a submissive marriage while the wife is working outside of the home, working her way up a career ladder or even just working some job? Is there some magic to women not working that is required in a submissive, godly family?

You have a bunch of questions, but few relate directly the the original questions which I have clearly answered.

I will tackle a few of them.

My point is not that feminism prevents stay at home Mom's but unfortunately has greatly harmed many women by making the one's who want to be SAHM's embarrassed to do so. "What do you do??" "I am a SAHM." "OH" is the general response implying inferiority or misplaced values. If 60% of women are working and 33-50% wish they were home more with the children what makes yo think feminism and the women can do all a man does attitude is not to blame?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rd-to.html

75% of new Mom's wish they could stay home, so maybe it is not feminism, maybe materialism that creates the problem. Regardless it is a huge problem. I see almost every day. A penalty for feminism is men allowing women to suffer the consequences of their own desires. Men working less hard for the family and expecting the wife to contribute financially, unlike days of old.

There is a big difference between accepting differing roles and oppression. Slavery is oppression. Employer and employees, husband and wife are roles. If a women chooses not to submit she is free to do so... slaves were not free to choose. Our issue is with you trying to oppose those who choose submission as their role in a marriage. We force it on no one and they can choose to be unsubmissive on any point and at any time. Freedom to choose to serve which for some reason you fear so much.

Many movies do nothing to influence society, just entertainment, but others set the tone for violence, accepting of nontraditional roles and sex, profanity... sex all over the place. Hollywood does not reflect society it pushes the envelope away from traditional values towards sensationalism. It sets the tone and many people follow, including mass murders if we throw in video games.

Some things improve for modern life, but morality continues to decline at a fast rate. The Europeans pointed the decline in morality out to me for the US 15 years ago and I could not see it, Now it is so clear to me how degraded our America has become. Sex, alcohol, drugs, divorce, mass murders, it is pretty bad out there. But you are right that good things are also improving along side the evil.

We do not ignore an egalitarian marriage in favor of submission just for a better marriage, but because we serve our God and do what He asks of us. Yes, we reap the blessings of doing things His way, but faith does not require success to do things. Faith trusts God at His Word even if we do not see immediate results, known that He works all for our God, and because we love Him. He is a fabulous Father and the perfect crutch for life.

[ShesCrafty]

I am so sorry to hear about your sister and I would be the first person to jump onto that bathroom and do whatever I could to protect her from her husband if only I could. I detest men who use any force or meanness against their wife and children. I am with the group against abuse of any form, but as you know I do not see modest spankings as abuse in any way. If we thought our kids in any way did not know our love with spankings we would not have one them. All of our kids believe we spanked them out of love and concern for who they were to become. And they are became terrific.

I can see why you would be upset and protective with this story of your sister.

What would Jesus think of all the lying bullshit you continue to spew?

What if you quietly walked over to your wife who is seemingly out of control and you placed your hands on her arms and pinned her to the wall, or you gave her a bear hug for a moment where she could not move, and then you kissed her a few times then whispered in her ear, “I love you, but this is totally unacceptable behavior. Please stop.’â€

[Ken]

How are you judging 100% success Ken? That 100% of "problem women" become submissive and just stick it out? Or that the actual problem is remedied?

The wives who sought her help are happy, or at least much happier and hopeful, and feel their marriages are moving towards a good place or peace and happiness. Each is different but when they call and write Lori regularly "You saved my life and marriage." Or, my husband said he loves me again. Or my husband says he loves me and wants nothing to do with another woman ever again. We are going to church together again. The list is endless, and Lori keeps track of all the women she mentors. They often call or write her. Unfortunately she does not have enough time for all of them.

She thought she lost one after not seeing or hearing from her for a year. Then in church shes saw the women holding hands with the husband she said would never go to church. After church she walked up to the women who gave her a big hug and whispered, "Thank you. You were the only one who gave me hope."

Maybe Lori's 100% sample is just plain blind luck, or maybe it is God's Word that a wife can "win her husband without a word." When you have the success rate that Lori has and every week hear 1-2 more success stories, it is hard to move away from what is working to some FJ agenda based on limited experience. We are all accountable for the truth we know.

[Ken]

Our leaders do not make a mountain out of a mole hill like this group does. You would think that women and children are being Killed every day the way you all act and write, when the reality is that n one is dying or being harmed by what the Bible teaches on these matters.

Prove it. Or just go away, like you said you would when you flounced, Ken Alexander.

[lipstickgoalie]

The elders are aware of Lori's teaching and have made only one small request of her. They have no problem with what she teaches as it is a personal blog, and the leaders of the mentors group sends the toughest cases to Lori to mentor because of her almost 100% success rate in healing marriages. Our leaders are much more concerned that all who serve believe in the essentials rather than focus on this much smaller issues, like submission.

Our leaders do not make a mountain out of a mole hill like this group does. You would thin that women and children are being Killed every day the way you all act and write, when the reality is that n one is dying or being harmed by what the Bible teaches on these matters.

Oh and on average between 3 and 4 women die each day from domestic violence. Between 4 and 6 children die each day from abuse. I will be happy to link my sources if necessary. But somehow I don't think you actually care.

Long story short Ken- WOMEN AND CHILDREN DIE FROM ABUSE EVERY SINGLE DAY IN THE UNITED STATES. EVERY. DAY.

I can not believe trivializing that fact. And that just goes to show how neither you nor you wife should be handing out advice about ANYTHING.

[salex]

You have a bunch of questions, but few relate directly the the original questions which I have clearly answered.

These were ALL related to your answers, they were what could be called follow ups or continuing the conversation--but never mind.

As I said earlier :dead-horse:

My point is not that feminism prevents stay at home Mom's but unfortunately has greatly harmed many women by making the one's who want to be SAHM's embarrassed to do so. "What do you do??" "I am a SAHM." "OH" is the general response implying inferiority or misplaced values. If 60% of women are working and 33-50% wish they were home more with the children what makes yo think feminism and the women can do all a man does attitude is not to blame?

But this bit is patently ridiculous. Honestly, are you saying that 18 to 30 percent of women in the USA keep jobs they don't want so they won't feel embarrassed to say they are SAHMs at cocktail parties or when meeting new people? Where are these conversations occuring, where people not only ask "what do you do (ie, they are strangers) but they are such stupid conversationalists that they don't say "oh, how many kids do you have" or some other normal bit of conversation instead of "oh." And who are these women who deny their own life preferences to avoid the alleged occasional "oh"?

If you know thousands of women who have told you they don't stay home because the occasional stranger might act oddly when they meet, then OK. That is too bad for them.

Bye.