Lori Alexander:Being treated poorly not grounds for divorce

[ShesCrafty]

I have wondered the same thing, and long ago came to the conclusion that neither she nor Ken can figure out how to change the settings. ;)

And yet in the other thread, Ken said he knows all about how Google works, because, you know, penis.

Penis > "for worse" and things like marriage commitment about respect when it comes to the non-penis part of the couple. Duh

(did I do my greater than sign right? I sadly still get those confused. math bad )

It's right. I always remember because I think of the sign as a hungry alligator, so his mouth points to the bigger side, because he wants to eat the larger portion. So 8 > 7. And I'd just like to add a shout out to Mrs. Brewer, my fourth grade teacher, for teaching me that! She was right, sometimes math is useful :D .

[Ken]

Have at it ladies,,,

Here is my attempt to weigh in on the subject and try to move the balance towards seeking help. It will be impossible for some on FJ, especially those who have been abused, to understand or appreciate the Christian mindset that focuses on something outside of our own interests, and instead embrace reasonable marriage struggles and difficulties in order to shine Jesus to our spouse and to the world. The Christian worldview is a choice we freely embrace, and as such we are called to suffer. Even I come here and try try to think things out with my adversaries, precisely because I believe the manure I receive at times, may be worth it if both sides can learn and grow from each other.

I do not have the time or energy to focus on this all night having been up at 4:45 p.m. to lecture out of town. I will try to catch up as I can.

Just posted on the blog comments: Is Happy Wife one of yours?

Emotional abuse can run a huge spectrum of issues, so it seems that friends, family and counselors must attempt to differentiate the levels of perceived abuse, hidden abuse and real abuse. No cry of abuse should be taken lightly.

As you point out the hardest issue with emotional abuse is identifying it fully, especially when it is hidden from others, or when a spouse looks so whitewashed on the outside, but is truly evil on the inside. All a blog like this one can do is recognize that abuse exists in marriages and that it is incumbent upon the one who is abused to seek help, and keep seeking help until she is confident she is getting the help she feels she needs. The Internet has much excellent information on the subject, but beyond this, the abused must have strong support system of friends, family and counselors surrounding her.

I suggest that one begin with thiswebsite, and keep looking. Knowledge and truth are two of the most important weapons one must use against all evil.

http://stoprelationshipabuse.org/educated/types-o...

Unfortunately in life hindsight is always 20-20. You speak of two examples where emotional abuse turned into something terrible. I am sure if your family and her friends could do it over again they would try to handle things differently.

It is a really difficult issue because we have also seen two wives who appeared to be emotionally abused, went to professionals, yet decided to try and win their husbands without a word, and did so. If there is any hint that the emotional can turn into something physical such an approach is not without risk, but when a wife feels strongly that her husband would not harm her physically, I do not see how a Christian counselor can blanketly encourage her to leave him, against her own desires. The counselor is not the one creating the situation, and can only give the best advice at the time.

If all spouses who feel emotionally abused immediately separate from their spouses, divorce would escalate and those marriages that could be saved will be lost. The spectrum is wide on this subject so getting a good diagnosis from a professional as to the perceived level of abuse taking place is important for any spouse who believes they are modestly in danger physically or psychologically. Then the abused spouse must decide the approach they will take perhaps based on determining if they are married to a Peter or a Judas.

[maybeizfundie]

You know what Ken? This may be harsher than normal for me, but Lori's post and your response just piss me the hell off tonight.

I am a Christian. Theologically conservative. Generally a social conservative too. But unlike many of my fellows, apparently I'm capable of understanding nuance and the fact that you cannot generalize human lives.

Divorce sucks a good bit of the time. I have no objection to an ideal being long-term, loving, healthy marriage. I appreciate it in the people around me, and I wish that for my children.

Key words: LOVING and HEALTHY.

A long-term *abusive* marriage sucks just as much as divorce does. And abuse maintained in the name of God is blasphemy.

I did "without a word" for over a decade. I laid my will down. Heck, I dug a hole and threw my will into it and then stomped on it. I loved him. I practially killed myself serving him. I "supported" his ego like a good wife should. Remarkably, he got meaner and more entitled the harder I tried to do the "right" thing according to you. I probably, because of my personality, would have done that a lot longer. But there came a point when I realized that by staying I was hurting my children--he was abusing them as well as me. He never beat them. He just terrorized the shit out of them all in the name of "training" them to be "tough" and "excellent."

And THAT has eternal significance. Mental, spiritual, and emotional abuse of my children has eternal significance that was indeed effectively addresssed by LEAVING. I'm now kicking myself for letting it go on as long as I did, even though rationally I know that the dynamics of an abusive relationship often make it difficult to leave and the brainwashing that goes with psychological abuse makes it very, very hard to think clearly enough to leave and stay away. If I had stayed with the misguided idea that I was a martyr for the Gospel, that would have been possibly the most disgusting, selfish, damaging thing I could have done to my children. I did not leave to 'find a new man', thinking I could just start over fresh and it would all be hunky dory. I left so that I wouldn't ultimately lose a child to rage, depression, suicide, or something similarly awful due to the constant degradation and harassment we were all undergoing.

I can't decide if you're just clueless or working hard to justify being an asshole "patriarch". Either way, I wish you could understand the *eternally significant* damage you and Lori and others like you are doing to people who look to you for authoritative Christian teaching.

[maybeizfundie]

And yes, I realize you are going to judge me for my crude language and most likely suggest that I'm not reeeeaaaallly a real Christian. So pre-emptively: What. Ever.

[Curious]

And yet in the other thread, Ken said he knows all about how Google works, because, you know, penis.

It's right. I always remember because I think of the sign as a hungry alligator, so his mouth points to the bigger side, because he wants to eat the larger portion. So 8 > 7. And I'd just like to add a shout out to Mrs. Brewer, my fourth grade teacher, for teaching me that! She was right, sometimes math is useful :D .

I remembered the alligator analogy, but then I couldn't recall which one he ate ;) I kept thinking does he eat the smaller side because it would be easier to eat or the bigger side. I decided bigger side looked right to me so went with that one.

[Curious]

Is Happy Wife one of yours?

I saw it. It was actually from one of her more regular commenters, Happy Wife. Sargent Lori will not tolerate dissension in the ranks! :disgust:

Now that's gotta burn a little bit.

[guidedbybobafett]

Is anyone else already bored by Ken popping in every time we talk about his wife?

[16strong]

I wound up with an emotionally abusive boyfriend...once. It did not take me long to figure out that it was no way to live life and I quickly moved on. People like Lori are just gluttons for punishment. I recognize, of course, that some women do not have the means or resources to get away. But Lori, OTOH, knows a ton of people, one or two of which might help her out. I hate BS like this. Nobody deserves to be emotionally abused, and it's a horrible, horrible thing to expect that someone "just deal with it." In fact, in many ways, emotional abuse can almost be worse than physical abuse.

[formergothardite]

Happy Wife could lurk here or be a member here. We actually do have tons of fundie lurkers and some conservative Christian members. I think you are just desperately searching for a way to discount her posts, though.

we have also seen two wives who appeared to be emotionally abused

So were these actually emotionally abused women? This implies that they weren't.

[lilah]

Happy Wife could lurk here or be a member here. We actually do have tons of fundie lurkers and some conservative Christian members. I think you are just desperately searching for a way to discount her posts, though.

we have also seen two wives who appeared to be emotionally abused

So were these actually emotionally abused women? This implies that they weren't.

Ken as scary as it may seem to you this women might have been telling the truth.

[julie paradox]

I remembered the alligator analogy, but then I couldn't recall which one he ate ;) I kept thinking does he eat the smaller side because it would be easier to eat or the bigger side. I decided bigger side looked right to me so went with that one.

Isn't it easier just to note that the bigger side of the sign is on the side of the bigger number? You start large and end up small. Vice versa for the "smaller than" sign.

I think the alligator just confuses things (after all, isn't the bigger one more likely to be eating the smaller one?)

[salex]

Isn't it easier just to note that the bigger side of the sign is on the side of the bigger number? You start large and end up small. Vice versa for the "smaller than" sign.

I think the alligator just confuses things (after all, isn't the bigger one more likely to be eating the smaller one?)

Never learned the alligator "thing"

We learned it this way.

Pointing is not polite. A big guy can point at a little guy, cause the little guy can't do any thing about it, but if a little guy points at a big guy, the big guy might take offense and punch him. THus, the point on the "arrow" always points at the little guy/smaller number.

[polecat]

Is anyone else already bored by Ken popping in every time we talk about his wife?

Voldemort.

[Koala]

Is Happy Wife one of yours?

No, she's definitely one of Lori's. Remember, Lori told her that if she hit hard enough it would work.

I had one that would never give in to anything, regardless of punishment, spanking did nothing but make her worse, time outs where a joke, finally I picked her up and threw her under a cold shower.

Lori Alexander:

A spanking will work if it is hard enough. We used a small leather strap on their behind and it hurt! There is no way a child will put up with that for long without obeying.

Not with her, we tried hand, and although I was against it belt, wooden spoon, cane everything she would just keep going, I stopped after I thought I broke her arm...

I believe your response was:

but you know full well this was not an abusive mother

Getting forgetful aren't you Ken? :whistle:

[formergothardite]

I didn't realize that was Happy Wife who wrote that. I just remembered that she once greatly annoyed Cabinet Man but he had difficulty responding because she was being so sickly sweet with her posts to him.

[Koala]

I didn't realize that was Happy Wife who wrote that. I just remembered that she once greatly annoyed Cabinet Man but he had difficulty responding because she was being so sickly sweet with her posts to him.

I apologize. I went back and looked and it was Happy Girl that wrote that. I had them confused.

[Ken]

salex you are a liar in this comment you made:

-if a person believes that women are asking for it by becoming intoxicated or walking down a dark alley (or what, down a stairway in a parking garage?), that suggests some horrible things about what that person thinks about men and about women. It moves us back from the "lies of feminism" and the "you are all bullies" toward his description of pushing women up against the wall (but it is OK because the really want it...she/they told him so--possibly thousands of them did after they told him they didn't like their jobs).

You know full well that I have repeatedly said that the rapist is 100% responsible for his own actions.

But others here agree with me that we are all responsible for our own individual actions.

If you are so poor at processing this simple differentiation, we will have not much more we can discuss because you can't process the nuances of Biblical submission.

[ladyamylynn]

salex you are a liar in this comment you made:

-if a person believes that women are asking for it by becoming intoxicated or walking down a dark alley (or what, down a stairway in a parking garage?), that suggests some horrible things about what that person thinks about men and about women. It moves us back from the "lies of feminism" and the "you are all bullies" toward his description of pushing women up against the wall (but it is OK because the really want it...she/they told him so--possibly thousands of them did after they told him they didn't like their jobs).

You know full well that I have repeatedly said that the rapist is 100% responsible for his own actions.

But others here agree with me that we are all responsible for our own individual actions.

If you are so poor at processing this simple differentiation, we will have not much more we can discuss because you can't process the nuances of Biblical submission.

Good god, no one here wants to process the nuances of Biblical submission. Get lost, Ken Alexander. :nenner:

[Loveday]

Good god, no one here wants to process the nuances of Biblical submission. Get lost, Ken Alexander. :nenner:

Particularly with someone who uses Biblical submission like a not-so-nuanced sledgehammer. :roll:

By the way, Ken, why on earth did Lori delete Cabinetman's comment on the Keeper at Home post? Far as I could tell, it was perfectly in line with her belief system, as usual.

[Ken]

salex you are a liar in this comment you made:

-if a person believes that women are asking for it by becoming intoxicated or walking down a dark alley (or what, down a stairway in a parking garage?), that suggests some horrible things about what that person thinks about men and about women. It moves us back from the "lies of feminism" and the "you are all bullies" toward his description of pushing women up against the wall (but it is OK because the really want it...she/they told him so--possibly thousands of them did after they told him they didn't like their jobs).

You know full well that I have repeatedly said that the rapist is 100% responsible for his own actions.

But others here agree with me that we are all responsible for our own individual actions.

If you are so poor at processing this simple differentiation, we will have not much more we can discuss because you can't process the nuances of Biblical submission.

I apologize before you even read the above salex for calling you a liar. It is just so frustrating to have you and others continually accuse me of things that you full well I do not espouse. If you cannot grasp individual responsibility and ownership for one's life and where one places themselves, then one can never grow up and do the responsible thing. These people are regularly blaming everyone else without looking to what they can do in their own lives to prevent being in positions where life's evil can get at them.

Let me repeat... no matter how cold stoned drunk a person is NO ONE should ever take advantage of them for ANY reason. What they should, do is caringly call a cab and accompany them with a friend or two back to where the are safe. Then they should contact them the next day and ask them to be more responsible, so as not to put themselves in dangerous places with evil people, then go a step further and get stoned drunk. Read what other FJers said which is similar to what I said.

This is so common sense that your accusations make me think you have nothing to respond to me three responses, s you set up a stawman that you then push over ... all falsehoods, yet you pat yourself on the back for it. So strange o0 be dealing with people like this on this Forum, who all battle for what they believe is decency, yet cannot show much of it themselves. Is the pain from the past that deep that you truly cannot see clearly at all? Is wining at all costs no matter what the mischarcterizations a value you really aspire to, or do you need to rethink what you are doing here to me and on this Forum to get to your real values?

[polecat]

Is the pain from the past that deep that you truly cannot see clearly at all?

This is really inappropriate.

I get that you're striking back trying to hurt people the way you feel they hurt your wife. I would be very angry if I saw people calling my husband was a *** monster, so I understand. But it is not ok to go on the attack against abuse survivors and throw their hurt and pain back in their face. You are dead wrong here.

[Ken]

Particularly with someone who uses Biblical submission like a not-so-nuanced sledgehammer. :roll:

By the way, Ken, why on earth did Lori delete Cabinetman's comment on the Keeper at Home post? Far as I could tell, it was perfectly in line with her belief system, as usual.

I have no idea why or when LOri deletes any comments. You all seem to allocate far to much credit to me for what Lori does with her blog. I participate modestly most times, but exercise no control over what she does with it... as it is her blog.

I am amazed at how fats you all are to getting information from all over the Internet. Is there someone working for Google helping with this process? How do you even know what comments she deletes?

By the way, a more "nuanced approach" to submission was one of the original requests from one of my most ardent antagonists. Sometimes what I write is for particular people to read as we have done much of what she has requested, or at least moved that direction.

We cannot give up the authority of the scriptures, but be can give up any perceived Fundie dressing that may have creeped into our thinking or words. We can try to more fully express what we mean and how we apply, within reason, as the words would fill yup a book or two in explaining all that Biblical submission is or is not in definition and application. There are so many varying scenarios but the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches husband leadership and a wife's submission. Two equals accepting willingly their God given roles in a marriage, yet treating each other as equals and as Christians are commanded treat each other. How is that so horrible? And why is it so important for this group to try to impose its will upon women who choose to be submissive? Will you not fight for Choice?

[Ken]

No, not dead wrong, but it may be inappropriate for me to bring it up, as it can be hurtful. You are right that I should be above this fray, so I accept your rebuke and retract my remarks, if that can be done. Please forgive me.

I guess i did want some to try to process how much of the smack and spew they give out here is really related to reality of the current situation. I see it all the time, pain begets pain until it is healed. And Jesus is the one who can heal it all. I do not wish any harm on anyone in this Forum, and wish that the feelings were mutual.

[polecat]

No, not dead wrong, but it may be inappropriate for me to bring it up, as it can be hurtful. You are right that I should be above this fray, so I accept your rebuke and retract my remarks, if that can be done. Please forgive me.

I guess i did want some to try to process how much of the smack and spew they give out here is really related to reality of the current situation. I see it all the time, pain begets pain until it is healed. And Jesus is the one who can heal it all. I do not wish any harm on anyone in this Forum, and wish that the feelings were mutual.

Thank you for your apology, and of course it's forgiven.

I don't think too many here wish you ill (some may; I do not), but I think many of us have strong reactions to the teachings that you and your wife espouse. And certainly my response may come from my history as an abuse survivor. I saw how it made my sister feel to have her face slapped so much that her nose was broken, and she was then tossed into a cold shower because the blood was gushing out everywhere. The bathroom looked like someone had slaughtered a pig. She and I remember the terror, the horror of that moment as if it were yesterday. It happened almost three decades ago. But the images are still crystal clear in my mind. Many other images are there, too, things I'd much rather forget.

I oppose physically correcting kids. I oppose physically correcting wives. I oppose using words to hurt people we love. I believe that families should be safe havens that are filled with love and respect for each member.

[salex]

This is so common sense that your accusations make me think you have nothing to respond to me three responses, s you set up a stawman that you then push over ...

Not sure if you are talking about my response to your answers to the 3 questions yesterday... did you miss my reply? If so, here it is. If not... don't know....

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