Bill Nye and Ken Ham Creation/Evolution Debate

[julie paradox]

(threadjack)

I can't help thinking that one or two of the British show's professionals might have done better with Bill Nye. Having watched the gamut of hopeless to brilliant over the years I can spot the obvious mistakes, and he had more than a basic idea. His partner seemed to be one of the ones that think if the man's not very good then you just need to give the woman lots of sexy stuff to do...

[Fargood]

I love Bill Nye, but I do worry that doing this type of "debate" will be an exercise in futility. Nye is rational, intelligent and is logical. That doesn't matter to fundies. Because God.

It's like debating with a psychopath. You'll never get them to see or acknowledge any sort of logical analysis.

[salex]

I did 12 years of Catholic schools and Genesis was seen as a "creation myth"...that is, an attempt by an ancient people to explain how they got here. The historical stuff didn't start being taken seriously until Noah. Considering almost every ancient culture has a flood myth, it's worth thinking about (at least to me).

My liberal Presbyterian minister (woman) referred to the creation myth(s) in Genesis as well.

[YPestis]

I tried to convince hubby to go see this debate because he is such a huge Bill Nye fan growing up. However, hubby didn't want to contribute to the museum and figured it would be a farce anyway since creationists are rarely convinced by logic. Still, I agree with others that Bill Nye made it his job to explain science to children and the scientific newbie. I can see how engaging with Ken Ham can open up a new audience for Bill Nye. Maybe after watching him, some fundie kids (and even their parents) will start questioning creationists. Maybe Bill Nye will pull back the veil of how science operates and show them that there's nothing Satanic and anti-Christian about evolution (and how it ain't "just a theory").

I've known plenty of kids who went to Catholic school. Not a single one was taught creationism in a science class. They all covered evolution in their biology classes. I'm guessing evolution is more of a "controversy" in conservative evangelical churches. I think most mainstream, academically inclined religious schools will teach mainstream science and leave the Biblical stories for religious studies.....

[DarkAnts]

I went a Lutheran high school.

I theology class, the pasture would have stupid questions on theology test about the existence of dinosaurs and the age of the earth. He also did a lot of other crappy shit like give a handout about why christianity was the only religion built on love. This is part of what drove me away from organized religion. Heaven forbid we talk about important things like the history of the bible or the history of our religion. I learned more about the history of the lutheran church in history class. The pasture was and still is a tool.

Science class was a 180 from this. Evolution was thought. The teacher made it clear that students did not need to believe the material but that they were expected to understand it. He was respectful of the beliefs of students. I have a lot of respect for this science teacher.

[Talitha Cumi]

Livestream site:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/live/de ... s-ken-ham/

[EmiGirl]

My husband convinced our pastor to make this a church event since it's being streamed live. I kind of want to go, but I'll get myself into trouble if I open my mouth.

[teachergirl]

From what I have read on fundie sites, sadly I think it will be the opposite. You will never convince a fundie whose logic is so faulty they deny biology, chemistry, physics, geology and astronomy. They are all hoping Bill sees the "truth" and comes to understand how he is wrong. They are hoping people will watch and come to the "Gospel". I guess what I find so distressing is it is one thing to believe in a creator, it is quite another to think the Earth is 6000 years old and to just flat out deny scientific research and methods. Why are people so stupid?

[EmiGirl]

That's one of the reason why I'm debating on going to my church's airing of the debate. I can just see them throwing things at me if I dared side with an evil atheist and I'm certainly not going to lie about what I believe.

[Talitha Cumi]

It's tonight! Sadly, I work until 7 EST, and will miss the first hour. Not sure if it's worth tuning in for the rest.

Anyone here on Ravelry? I know I've seen a couple. There will be a drinking game going on in the LSG (Lazy, Stupid and Godless) group. Damn, I hate that I'm going to be missing so much of this! :angry-banghead:

[doggie]

This is going to hurt evolution more then anything else it will just make fundies see science is threatened by creationism. So in some ways bill us not too bright.

[Mecca]

This is going to hurt evolution more then anything else it will just make fundies see science is threatened by creationism. So in some ways bill us not too bright.

I disagree. If one kid hears Bill Nye and questions the bullshit they have been taught, it is worth it. We cannot allow people like Ham to spout off nonsense and go unchallenged. Sure, we all know Ham will declare himself the winner no matter what, but the truth is many in the audience will be exposed to more Science in two hours than they ever would in a lifetime, and for me, that is a good thing.

[doggie]

I disagree. If one kid hears Bill Nye and questions the bullshit they have been taught, it is worth it. We cannot allow people like Ham to spout off nonsense and go unchallenged. Sure, we all know Ham will declare himself the winner no matter what, but the truth is many in the audience will be exposed to more Science in two hours than they ever would in a lifetime, and for me, that is a good thing.

ham is a seasoned debater. Kids are not going to watch this at least not the kids that need too this will be seen as proof creationism has the power to scare science. This is why we don't see these debates they do nothing to help and can only hurt.

[ViolaSebastian]

We learned about evolution at the Anglican school I went to. I can remember studying Genesis, but it was never implied that it happened recently. I didn't even know that there was still a differing opinion about evolution until very recently. I thought it was the same as general relativity, Ie an unquestionable truth.

I'd love to see Ken Ham Vs Ian Plimer (google him).

Heck, we celebrated Darwin's birthday at my Episcopal Church! It was actually quite a hoot, I imagine the Baptist church down the street was having a fit during it!

[Mecca]

ham is a seasoned debater. Kids are not going to watch this at least not the kids that need too this will be seen as proof creationism has the power to scare science. This is why we don't see these debates they do nothing to help and can only hurt.

What, and Bill Nye is some idiot off the street that has no clue what he is talking about? You underestimate Nye. Kids are going to watch this. I personally know two that will be in actual attendance tonight that could benefit from hearing an opposing view. It is not just about kids either. I am proof positive that people can do a 180 when information is given. This could be a positive thing, so I am not going to blindly dog something out without first seeing it.

[Ellimenopy]

I'm going to miss the live feed. Do you think it'll be available afterwards online?

[doggie]

What, and Bill Nye is some idiot off the street that has no clue what he is talking about? You underestimate Nye. Kids are going to watch this. I personally know two that will be in actual attendance tonight that could benefit from hearing an opposing view. It is not just about kids either. I am proof positive that people can do a 180 when information is given. This could be a positive thing, so I am not going to blindly dog something out without first seeing it.

in debating it is not knowledge that always wins but the skill at debating. that is where bill is at a big disadvantage and old ham is very good at.

[Talitha Cumi]

I'm going to miss the live feed. Do you think it'll be available afterwards online?

It's available till tomorrow noon according to [link=http://debatelive.org/faq/?utm_source=debate-update-20140123-group&utm_medium=email&utm_content=body-link&utm_campaign=bill-nye-ken-ham-debate]their FAQ.[/link]

[FlorenceHamilton]

in debating it is not knowledge that always wins but the skill at debating. that is where bill is at a big disadvantage and old ham is very good at.

My daughter and I have just finished watching "Eyes on the Prize", a documentary about the civil rights Movement in the United States. If the Civil Rights activists in the 1960's took the view that it not worth fighting irrational closed minded idiocy, we would still have de jure segregation in the south. People of color would not be a voting bloc and Barack Obama could never have been President.

We are watching the NPR debate tonight (her idea- she knows nothing about Free Jinger). Reason and critical thought will eventually cut through the thickest blockade of nonsense. Trust me, Mrs Fannie Lou Hamer was at a much bigger disadvantage when she took a bus from Mississippi hoping to be seated at the Democratic National Convention in 1964. She was given the chance to speak, but she was cut off by a Presidential address. BUT SHE WAS HEARD. And although she lost that round, her voice changed the nation.

Bill Nye is not wasting his time.

[Boogalou]

I changed the thread title so people will know it's tonight. I should be watching, as long as the somewhat tenuous internet connection I will be using decides to work *fingers crossed*

I agree that Bill Nye is not wasting his time and I think this is a good forum for him to get his point across to some creationists. The debate format is up on their site now and they have set aside about 40 minutes for pre-submitted questions. That might be interesting....

2 hours, 2 minutes, and 1 second to go!

[Mecca]

in debating it is not knowledge that always wins but the skill at debating. that is where bill is at a big disadvantage and old ham is very good at.

You are misinformed. You do know that Bill Nye is a skilled debater himself and that he has had public debates before on this very subject where he basically tore apart his opponent, right? Stop trying to make Nye out to be a clueless idiot that cannot debate his way out of paper bag. He simply is not.

[doggie]

Sorry but debating with a fundamentalist will never give you a win or even results. ham will win this no matter the outcome he will make money and bring more attention to his failing entertainment center a few people may change their minds but most people it will just confirm their beliefs even more. History has shown you can't win a fight like this no matter how good you are. Only doubters would be swayed. I want ham to go down but I have to face reality on this. I mean when they are willing to let their children die for their beliefs do you really think anyone can change their minds?

this is a good article on it.

http://m.csmonitor.com/Science/2014/020 ... ists-video

But a public debate with Mr. Ham may not be a very good idea, say some scientists.

There is nothing to debate says, Jerry A. Coyne, a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago.

Debating about such issues lends credibility to Ham and his beliefs, Dr. Coyne says. "It is like debating with lawyers who are interested in making their case," he tells the Monitor. But tomorrow's debate will not be a cakewalk for Nye, because theories of creation can superficially sound right to people without a science background, he says.

Anthropologist and science blogger Greg Laden agrees.

"I think Bill Nye is great, but I think he’s making a mistake," Dr. Laden writes in his blog. "First, Bill Nye is not really an expert on evolution and is actually not that experienced in debates. Being really really pro science and science education isn’t enough."

Also, it is very much possible for creationists to win the debate simply because, "they are not talking about science," he wrote.

In spite of overwhelming evidence to support the Earth's age (4.5 billion years) and Darwin's theory of natural selection, most young-earth creationists believe that God created the universe in six days less than 10,000 years ago.

And almost 33 percent Americans believe in this theory. According to a Pew Research Center analysis published in December last year, six in ten Americans (60 percent) said that “humans and other living things have evolved over time,†while a third (33 percent) rejected the idea of evolution, saying that “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.â€

The topic of evolution was chosen "because our ministry theme for 2013 and for 2014 is 'Standing Our Ground, Rescuing Our Kids,' our staff thought that a debate on creation vs. evolution with a man who has influenced so many children to believe in evolution would be a good idea," Ham wrote in his blog on the Answers in Genesis' website. Ham is the president/CEO and founder of the ministry Answers in Genesis.

Ham who will be pitted against "the bow-tied host of the popular children’s TV program" said this debate "will help highlight the fact that so many young people are dismissing the Bible because of evolution."

The tickets for the debate sold out in two minutes, stated the ministry's website.

[Patsy]

doggie, the point I think Mecca is trying to make is that for those who already think creationism has credibility (ie almost the entire audience), having someone who is (a) knowledgable, (b) very gentle and personable and © yes, also good at rhetoric and expressing his beliefs to other, disagreeing, minds, and not just at logically laying them out -- that is, someone like Bill Nye -- stand in front of them and actually explain what evolution is (which they've probably never heard) and explain that no, the "other side" do not believe half the ridiculous straw men that creationists "defeat" (again, something they've probably never heard) is going to be something that actually, for the first time, presents evolution and its arguments as they are rather than as creationists present them. And for those people, that is something that may make them realise that evolution is more plausible than people like Ken Ham would have you believe.

Bill Nye's whole shtick is (I get the impression of this, at least) talking with people who are absolutely scientifically illiterate and explaining the core concepts of what science actually is. Having a science ambassador go to a debate like this does not lend credibility to creationism the way a hardcore scientist who usually only engages with other experts in their field would.

[Sobeknofret]

I really want to watch this, because Bill Nye is the bomb and I puffyheart him in a big way, but I'm afraid I'll blow a blood vessel and have a stroke when Ham opens his mouth.

[formergothardite]

http://debatelive.org/

So who is watching? Ken Hamm has gotten old. Bill Nye is one of those people who never seems to age.