Williams Abuse Trial - Hana Alemu/Hannah Williams - Merge

[Peas n carrots]

I just think he doesn't have a lot to go on. I did think it was interesting he's trying to throw in the possibility that Hana was bulemic. Yeah, and she might have been a circus performer, too. Hey, anything is possible here! Wow.

Exactly. Either way, it proves negligent indifference. If you have a child with problems that are outside of your realm of control, you get help.

I can't help but to wonder if all the children - bio and Immanuel - are permanently damaged. Will they be able to ever live normal or semi normal lives? I can't imagine the eldest sons are took part in abusing their sisters ever being able to relate to others on a normal level - they were raised by a monster who told them it's OK to beat those who are weaker than them.

[GawkingToo]

I don't, for a second, believe the "smeared blood on the walls" thing. Not even a little bit. We all know how Carri exaggerates every little shortcoming or action. I imagine that the truth is closer to there being a spot of blood somewhere, completely accidentally and naturally. And if Carri was all that concerned about the others, why not just opt for the Hep vaccines?

I can believe she did it. I know it sounds extreme, but it's not unheard of for traumatized kids to do inappropriate things with their bodily fluids. I've read various blogs and forum accounts of their kids peeing all over the house, smearing feces, etc. I recall one adoption blog where the mother said her daughter used knee socks as menstrual pads and then stashed them in a clothing drawer after they'd been used. Traumatized kids do weird things. It happens.

The thing is, most parents wouldn't kick their kid out of the house over it, even if their kid did have an infectious disease. A normal parent would see it as a sign that their kid needs help, not that their kid needs to be broken of his or her "rebelliousness."

[chaotic life]

The difference between carrier and active Hep B is viral load. Most people contract Hep B, have an active infection, then their immune system kicks in and suppresses the virus, causing the viral load to be very low. While carriers are contagious, they are not significantly so.

Even so, Hep B is one of the vaccines that can be given AFTER you have a known exposure. The real issue with Hep B was NOT how Hana was dangerous to the family, but that her Hep B needed to be monitored by ID. You cannot totally eliminate the virus in the body, thus why you become a carrier. You won't get reinfected by someone else, but when under stress your immune system can stop suppressing it and it can return to active status as the virus builds back up in your system.

While the viral load is low enough to be a carrier/inactive status, it lies mostly dormant and is not a threat to the individual. However, should it become active, those individuals have a 50% chance of liver failure, usually in their 30s, which requires a liver transplant. Hana should have been followed by Infectious Disease annually to monitor both her viral load and her liver function. Kids who have an active case of Hep B required monitoring and labs drawn every six months by ID and if there is ANY impact on the liver, then it required being monitored by Heptalogy as well.

I am a FIRM believer that every parent has the right to decide whether they want to vaccinate their children or not. I am in fact a selective vaccinator myself. However, I also believe that AAI had NO business placing a Hep B positive child with a family who refused to vaccinate anyone in their family for the disease. That refusal shows an absolute ignorance and a potential to treat the child as diseased in the first place.

I take it VERY personally how Hana was treated for her Hep B status. One of my children is Hep B positive and it is gut wrenching to consider that treatment for this virus. Carri absolutely treated Hana as if she had a sexually transmitted disease from her own behaviors. Yet, for most of the world the most common cause of Hep B infection is mother to child, and quite frankly that is most likely where Hana got it. It most definitely was NOT an STD for Hana and did not make her diseased or dirty. Furthermore, the simple answer was to either vaccinate the household or don't adopt a child with Hep B. It's not as if they didn't KNOW about it when they adopted her. If you know you aren't going to vaccinate AND you know you are bringing a child with the virus into the house, then you have to assume that at some point the child IS going to bleed and another child CAN be exposed. WHY was the answer to overreact and get a porta potty???? I have one who has failed to convert to the Hep B vaccine. Our solution is to have taught both children that non-converter is to not get positive child's blood on them if possible. Positive child has a container of Clorox bleach wipes. Everyone else is vaccinated, so if there is a blood situation, said child simply cleans it with a bleach wipe and everyone is good to go. Easy peasy and no one EVER gets shamed or treated in such an ugly manner!

[Palimpsest]

The difference between carrier and active Hep B is viral load. Most people contract Hep B, have an active infection, then their immune system kicks in and suppresses the virus, causing the viral load to be very low. While carriers are contagious, they are not significantly so.

Even so, Hep B is one of the vaccines that can be given AFTER you have a known exposure. The real issue with Hep B was NOT how Hana was dangerous to the family, but that her Hep B needed to be monitored by ID. You cannot totally eliminate the virus in the body, thus why you become a carrier. You won't get reinfected by someone else, but when under stress your immune system can stop suppressing it and it can return to active status as the virus builds back up in your system.

While the viral load is low enough to be a carrier/inactive status, it lies mostly dormant and is not a threat to the individual. However, should it become active, those individuals have a 50% chance of liver failure, usually in their 30s, which requires a liver transplant. Hana should have been followed by Infectious Disease annually to monitor both her viral load and her liver function. Kids who have an active case of Hep B required monitoring and labs drawn every six months by ID and if there is ANY impact on the liver, then it required being monitored by Heptalogy as well.

I am a FIRM believer that every parent has the right to decide whether they want to vaccinate their children or not. I am in fact a selective vaccinator myself. However, I also believe that AAI had NO business placing a Hep B positive child with a family who refused to vaccinate anyone in their family for the disease. That refusal shows an absolute ignorance and a potential to treat the child as diseased in the first place.

I take it VERY personally how Hana was treated for her Hep B status. One of my children is Hep B positive and it is gut wrenching to consider that treatment for this virus. Carri absolutely treated Hana as if she had a sexually transmitted disease from her own behaviors. Yet, for most of the world the most common cause of Hep B infection is mother to child, and quite frankly that is most likely where Hana got it. It most definitely was NOT an STD for Hana and did not make her diseased or dirty. Furthermore, the simple answer was to either vaccinate the household or don't adopt a child with Hep B. It's not as if they didn't KNOW about it when they adopted her. If you know you aren't going to vaccinate AND you know you are bringing a child with the virus into the house, then you have to assume that at some point the child IS going to bleed and another child CAN be exposed. WHY was the answer to overreact and get a porta potty???? I have one who has failed to convert to the Hep B vaccine. Our solution is to have taught both children that non-converter is to not get positive child's blood on them if possible. Positive child has a container of Clorox bleach wipes. Everyone else is vaccinated, so if there is a blood situation, said child simply cleans it with a bleach wipe and everyone is good to go. Easy peasy and no one EVER gets shamed or treated in such an ugly manner!

Thanks, Chaotic Life. You saved me so much time.

I was trying to work on a similar response but it was getting ever wordier and complex. You just nailed it with the simple precautions of the bolded and the description of the issue.

Thanks again.

[chaotic life]

Also, I think it's important to point out something Maureen at Lightofdaystories pointed out.

Hana was killed and Immanuel beaten nearly to death for their "bad behaviors." Someone mentioned all of the horror stories they have read from adoption bloggers about the behaviors hurting adoptees are capable of. So, it should be no surprise that YES hurting children can do some pretty shocking and horrifying things. Yet, WHY were Hana and Immanuel beaten?????

There is only ONE, let me say that again ONE behavioral incident that has EVER been cited which was ANYTHING other than normal child behaviors! There was no extreme violence. There was no torturing of animals. There was no waking up with a kid standing over you with a knife. There was no stealing credit cards or running away. There was NO pooping in pants or poop smearing. There was no using the bathroom in shockingly inappropriate places.

Hana and Immanuel were beaten for

being defiant

not being respectful

stealing sweets and junk food

not answering when called

not standing in the right place

not responding to a stomping on a concrete floor

wetting the bed at night

not rinsing shampoo out of her hair properly (why the fuck were they using shampoo anyway, it's not good for her hair)

cutting the grass too short

not doing their schoolwork properly

changing a correct math answer to a wrong answer

failing to be properly modest

failing to obey cruel and unreasonable directions

The SINGLE incident that anyone could cite that was an actual disturbing behavior was how Hana handled her menstrual blood. Both Larry and Carri claim Hana was smearing her blood on the wall.

IF Hana did smear her blood on the wall, then it would have indicated it was time to find her a THERAPIST. However, the testimony of multiple children in their interviews (though not introduced in court) was that it was NOT smeared blood on the wall but a drop of blood on the toilet seat. Since this family was hyper-obsessed with "modesty" exactly HOW did Larry see Hana smearing her blood anywhere? Was he in the bathroom with her? I sincerely doubt it. I think Carri TOLD him Hana smeared the blood. I think that was the pivotal excuse for ramping up from ordinary abuse to outright torture for these monsters. I think they created the smear in their minds to justify their monstrosity. None of the children said Hana smeared blood. They said she didn't clean up after using the bathroom.

The SINGLE incident that made it worthy to KILL Hana and torture Immanuel was that blood, either a drop on the toilet or a smear on the wall.

Well, pardon me for a fucking minute but that is just BULLSHIT. Yes, if Hana really smeared the blood it was an extreme behavior and should have been addressed WITH THERAPY. Everything else these monsters described to justify killing her was just normal behaviors!

[starfish]

Just wanted to add a good thought for the jury tonight, who has to process all the evidence and arguments. It can't be easy.

The defense attorneys don't have much to work with, but as a arm-chair quarterback, I would have advised a totally different strategy than throw a bunch of crap to the wall and see what sticks. (Hana was diabetic! Hana ate Venus Flytrap!)

Sounds like amatuer hour to me.

I think what's most frustrating to me is that the Williams' had all kinds of resources at their disposal. Larry had insurance; they could have availed themselves of all kinds of therapies and medical treatments if necessary. Vaccines are the least of what they could have offered all their children. But they chose the most ignorant and evil way of dealing with their children. The resources they lacked included morality, decency, kindness and any kind of good judgment. And now a child is dead and eight others are damaged. Way to go, losers.

Stay strong, jury!

[BravaAmica]

Just wanted to add a good thought for the jury tonight, who has to process all the evidence and arguments. It can't be easy.

The defense attorneys don't have much to work with, but as a arm-chair quarterback, I would have advised a totally different strategy than throw a bunch of crap to the wall and see what sticks. (Hana was diabetic! Hana ate Venus Flytrap!)

Sounds like amatuer hour to me.

I think what's most frustrating to me is that the Williams' had all kinds of resources at their disposal. Larry had insurance; they could have availed themselves of all kinds of therapies and medical treatments if necessary. Vaccines are the least of what they could have offered all their children. But they chose the most ignorant and evil way of dealing with their children. The resources they lacked included morality, decency, kindness and any kind of good judgment. And now a child is dead and eight others are damaged. Way to go, losers.

Stay strong, jury!

There are loads of resources available where they live. Skagit County is semi-rural and the hospital and medical care there is more than adequate. Plus, a 90 minute drive will take you to Seattle Children's Hospital- a world class research hospital. I know for a fact that Boeing insurance is accepted there. So, yeah, the Williams' CHOSE to kill Hana and murder Immanuel. I hope the jury sees that, I truly do.

[theresa]

I have been following this trial and am on the facebook group as well. I first heard about this in a group I've been a member on for years called Patriarch's Wives Digest. (I have totally changed since joining 12 years ago) One of the ladies on their knew the Williams and told the group about it and she was just scolded for gossiping and treated very poorly by the women in that group, and basically silencedn. I have cried over Hanna many times and just wished someone could have rescued her. What came to my mind, is that if she was so rebellious, she would have said FU to Larry and Carri and gotten the hell out of there whatever it would take, especially if she was as old as they claim she is, she would have fought back too and not take the beatings. I was a very rebellious child and ran away from home at 14 and headed to another state with a friend.

I see her as just a broken girl, wanting to please her new parents, but nothing was ever good enough for them. When you see her walking a straight line outside (as part of some punishment) looking so sorrowful, it is just heartbreaking. She was very compliant it seems to me.

When I think of her life, having her parents die, then being in an orphanage because the extended family is unable to care for you, then being shipped across the world with the promise of a new, great life, only to be put into this family just breaks my heart. When I think of what was going through her mind that cold night, it was 42 degrees outside and raining and she was dressed in shorts and a tshirt, it just kills me.

Carri said Hanna didn't display any problems until she was there for quite a while after she arrived which makes me think that they were the cause of her problems. Hanna was isolated and not allowed any friends, she was treated like a fricken prisoner, outcast. They didn't talk to her as a form of punishment. I just hope Larry and Carri never are able to be back together with eachother or their kids. I hope they get a very, very long sentece. On the facebook page rememberance of Hanna Williams, there are some sweet video's posted of her. She was just such a beautiful soul and I'm so angry about what they did to her and Immanuel. I'm anxiously waiting the verdict.

[Lillybee]

The case is in the jury's hands now. I am not expecting a verdict any time soon. I was on a much simpler child abuse jury. It was a five day trial and we spent over six days deliberating. It was an experience that I would not want to repeat.

[Palimpsest]

The case is in the jury's hands now. I am not expecting a verdict any time soon. I was on a much simpler child abuse jury. It was a five day trial and we spent over six days deliberating. It was an experience that I would not want to repeat.

Yes, this. The jury would not be doing their job if they did not spend time deliberating all the charges. That should take days. I feel for them and hope they decide correctly.

Two bits of news from the KIRO TV reporter's twitter (cut and paste below). A juror has been dismissed so they are down to one alternate. Let us hope that everyone else on the jury stays healthy and does not discuss the deliberations. The defense has not asked for a mistrial.

The tweet is a bit confusing. The juror was dismissed because his wife works in the prosecutor's office and he felt uncomfortable. That should have been disclosed in voire dire, but he was not disqualified from the jury because his wife worked in the prosecutor's office. My guess is that he went home and told his wife that he had been asked to be foreman and she had to say, "Uh oh. You are not supposed to discuss anything at all about deliberations and you need to talk to the Judge. Now."

Also the jury, who had to start again from the beginning after the juror was dismissed, asked to hear the 911 call again. I think that is good news. Carri sounded so cold in that call. She thought her daughter had killed herself. Hardly. It is a fairly damning piece of evidence.

lee stoll â€@LeeStoll 7h

Williams trial: juror dismissed. Wife works in prosecutor's office. Told her he was asked to be presiding juror. Said he felt uncomfortable.

lee stoll â€@LeeStoll 7h

Williams trial: jury asks to hear Carri's 911 call. Larry, Carri and attorneys in court now. Jury will be brought in soon.

[chaotic life]

Maureen blogged about the dismissed juror and said she was almost certain that connection WAS discussed when jury selection occurred.

[starfish]

In a case like this, it would be really helpful to have a strong (pushy, bossy, ex-military seargant) foreperson on the

jury. There are so many rabbit trails to go down, a good strong foreperson can bring it all home.

[Peas n carrots]

I really really really want justice for Hana.

Does anyone know why the Williams were never asked to travel to Ethiopia? Isn't it unusual for the adoptive parents to not be required to travel to the country they are adopting from?

[mockingbird]

Also the jury, who had to start again from the beginning after the juror was dismissed, asked to hear the 911 call again. I think that is good news. Carri sounded so cold in that call. She thought her daughter had killed herself. Hardly. It is a fairly damning piece of evidence.

Just looked up the call. Gross. She's so casual, like, I'm so annoyed by my kid's behavior, by the way, she's probably dead. :evil: I think she tried to act upset in the beginning but it didn't last long. Hopefully the fact that the jury asked to hear it again is a good sign like you said.

[chaotic life]

What is worse than listening to Carri's blatant disregard for Hana's death as she was in the very moment of it is the reality that she only called 911 after she called Larry and he told her that she had to make the call.

Not all adoptive countries require you to travel in person to get your adopted child. Those with escort options are always very popular with large families simply because it is very hard to find child are for all your kids in order to travel internationally. Afaik, S. Korea still has an escort option to this day. At the time of this specific adoption, Ethiopia had an escort option. I don't know if they still do or not honestly. It has become more popular for parents to travel there as the program has gotten bigger. Back when my sister came home 12 years ago, it was extremely rare for parents to travel personally. Five years ago, it was already considered best practice but not as strongly as it is now.

In our first adoption, DH actually excorted another child stateside while bringing our child home. Once he brought her to the East Coast, someone else escorted her to the West Coast because her single mother had a deep fear of leaving her other kids to pick the child up.

[Peas n carrots]

TBH...I'm surprised that Larry and Carri called 911. At this point Hana was so isolated, they could have buried her body and got on with it. I'm glad they did...otherwise Immanuel would probably be dead as well.

But yes isn't it telling that Carri's first reaction was to get a sheet to cover Hana so her son's wouldn't see her naked? Modestly is obviously valued more than her life. Then, as mentioned Carri calls Larry first before calling 911. I wonder if Hana was still alive at that point and had a chance of surviving had Carri not putzed around for several minutes?

[Palimpsest]

Maureen blogged about the dismissed juror and said she was almost certain that connection WAS discussed when jury selection occurred.

I just found this in the comments after Maureen's latest blog. [bolding mine.]

Alexa Finnon September 6, 2013 at 6:31 pm said:

I contacted the Skagit County prosecutors office this morning when I heard this story about the juror.

This is the reply I received from the Rosemary Kaholokula in the prosecutors office/ it was a forward ……

“One of the jurors on the panel in the case of State v. Larry and Carri Williams is married to an employee of the Skagit County Prosecutor’s Office. This fact was known to all parties at the time of jury selection and prior to his being selected for the jury. This individual was questioned thoroughly about this fact. All parties agreed to his being on the jury. It was brought to our attention that this juror provided information to his wife regarding procedural matters related to this case. When we learned of this, we immediately brought it to the attention of the defense attorneys and the court. The court excused the juror.â€

That juror was definitely at fault. It looks like I was right in my previous speculation re. his being asked to be presiding juror/foreperson and telling his wife. If he had not been dismissed immediately and this had come out later it would have completely compromised the verdict.

They still have one alternate left.

[BravaAmica]

TBH...I'm surprised that Larry and Carri called 911. At this point Hana was so isolated, they could have buried her body and got on with it. I'm glad they did...otherwise Immanuel would probably be dead as well.

But yes isn't it telling that Carri's first reaction was to get a sheet to cover Hana so her son's wouldn't see her naked? Modestly is obviously valued more than her life. Then, as mentioned Carri calls Larry first before calling 911. I wonder if Hana was still alive at that point and had a chance of surviving had Carri not putzed around for several minutes?

That was my thought as well. I'm shocked Larry told her to call 911. It's the only point in his favor, though. We'll never know if Hana was still alive or if she could have been saved had help reached her sooner, though.

[chaotic life]

I have long wondered if Hana could have been saved. There is no doubt that Lydia Schatz could have never been saved. In fact, one of the other children in that home was put in the hospital because they were already experiencing the same slow break down that had killed Lydia. However, Hana died of hypothermia. The moment she fell face forward onto the ground, surely her heart was still beating. There have been cases of drowning victims were saved BECAUSE they were in hypothermia, even though their hearts had stopped at the point it occurred.

Had Carri called 911 and started CPR, could she have saved Hana, or was her malnutrition so far gone that her body was not going to start again? WHY did she not call 911 and start CPR? Even if you don't know CPR, the 911 operators can walk you through it and it now involves rapid chest compressions alone. Why did no one put a BLANKET over her. She had to have felt like an icicle, why a sheet for modesty but no blanket for warmth?

Everytime I think about Hana and that night when she died alone, I think that Carri's behavior that night clearly demonstrated her depraved indifference to that child's plight. I just don't see anyway they won't convict Carri.

I'm far more concerned that the jury might decide that Larry didn't actually do most of the stuff to these kids and therefore is not guilty. Yet, his lack of stopping Carri itself IS depraved indifference. He is JUST as guilty as Carri in that child's death. Yes, he told her to call 911. Yes, he expressed concerns about her house of horrors, but he still sat there and watched her torture and kill a child and DID NOT STOP HER. What kind of human can sit there and watch a child be tortured and starved to death?

[splork]

I have long wondered if Hana could have been saved. There is no doubt that Lydia Schatz could have never been saved. In fact, one of the other children in that home was put in the hospital because they were already experiencing the same slow break down that had killed Lydia. However, Hana died of hypothermia. The moment she fell face forward onto the ground, surely her heart was still beating. There have been cases of drowning victims were saved BECAUSE they were in hypothermia, even though their hearts had stopped at the point it occurred.

Maybe. Probably she went face forward onto the ground because she went into a cardiac arrythmia. Or she stumbled and fell and that provoked an arrythmia. The hypothermic heart is very sensitive to rough handling. If the kind of arrythmia was one that would respond to a shock, her chance of survival until the emergency room could have been as high as 70% if she had gotten good bystander CPR and had been defibrillated within 8 minutes. That's a much better chance than if her rescuer's priorities weren't modest coverings, organizing a team of kids to carry her around the yard, and a phone call to get permission to call 911 (or, more likely, to indirectly float the idea burying her in the back yard).

[Peas n carrots]

Splork, I agree. I'm really wondering if Carri's initial plan was to bury her in the yard and not alert authorities. Larry is no angel but it sounds that he may have been horrified enough to finally be moves to do something - though it was too little, too late.

I just feel if her intention would have been to call 911 to begin with she would have done that first, then call Larry.

[WonderingInWA]

Splork, I agree. I'm really wondering if Carri's initial plan was to bury her in the yard and not alert authorities. Larry is no angel but it sounds that he may have been horrified enough to finally be moves to do something - though it was too little, too late.

I just feel if her intention would have been to call 911 to begin with she would have done that first, then call Larry.

Do the adoption agencies not have any obligation to do periodic checks on the kids until they are, say, aged 18? Maybe that's why she didn't just bury her?

[chaotic life]

Ethiopia requires annual updates until the child turns 18, but there is no teeth and families often never bother. Depending in a few factors, the adoption agency had no authority once the kids were in the home and finalized to state requirements.

[starfish]

If Carri gets convicted and Big Lar is acquitted, I bet he will divorce her as soon as possible.

He will then re-marry. Maybe a Botkin girl? But he would remarry and probably start

re-producing.

[WonderingInWA]

If Carri gets convicted and Big Lar is acquitted, I bet he will divorce her as soon as possible.

He will then re-marry. Maybe a Botkin girl? But he would remarry and probably start

re-producing.

Interesting thought that he would divorce her. I tend to agree. Even though he has certainly been guilty of his role in all this, he's the one that's been in jail, not her. I'm sure there is a lot of anger between the two of them.