Williams Abuse Trial - Hana Alemu/Hannah Williams - Merge

[Peas n carrots]

What a coward. Even if I didn't think he was lying through his teeth he is a coward. When the heat is on he throws his wife under the bus. They are both just evil.

[chaotic life]

Of COURSE he's innocent. He's just the man who went to work and left Carri to handle everything and OF COURSE Hana told him she was 16 because it's just SO CONVENIENT to try to absolve himself by his own ignorance.

Nice try. You cannot live in the house while your wife is TORTURNING AND KILLING A CHILD and get to claim ignorance and innocence. If you don't stop her and protect that child, then you are an accomplice, plain and simple. That makes you just as guilty even IF you never laid a hand on her yourself, which frankly I don't believe AT ALL.

COWARD!

[WonderingInWA]

Oh, I think it's all just part of the defense strategy. At least one of them is going to take the majority of the fall, and it makes sense for them to play it this way (as much sense as the legal system can be played). Courtrooms are full of actors and everyone who ends up on the stand has been coached ahead of time.

It's interesting that they won't say whether Carri will take the stand. I don't know really anything about how courtrooms work, but doesn't she HAVE to take the stand? If not, why not?

[Patsy]

Oh, I think it's all just part of the defense strategy. At least one of them is going to take the majority of the fall, and it makes sense for them to play it this way (as much sense as the legal system can be played). Courtrooms are full of actors and everyone who ends up on the stand has been coached ahead of time.

It's interesting that they won't say whether Carri will take the stand. I don't know really anything about how courtrooms work, but doesn't she HAVE to take the stand? If not, why not?

I thiiiink if prosecution call her, they're making her testify about her own alleged crimes which is not allowed. so they're only entitled to question her in cross-examination if her defence call her as a witness for their side, and obviously the defence not going to do that if it goes against their interests or she just decides against it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I thiiiink if prosecution call her, they're making her testify about her own alleged crimes which is not allowed. so they're only entitled to question her in cross-examination if her defence call her as a witness for their side, and obviously the defence not going to do that if it goes against their interests or she just decides against it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

That's right. It's part of the Fifth Amendment in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amen ... rimination

In many criminal trials, the accused never testifies, and juries are not allowed to infer guilt from a refusal to testify. It's up to the prosecution to prove the facts of the case.

[BravaAmica]

Carri Williams will take the stand this afternoon. So the prosecution will get their turn to cross examine.

I must say, the defense teams must be desperate to allow both defendants to testify.

I think Larry will get off pretty much scott free and Carri will take the majority of the fall.

[starfish]

Oh, I think it's all just part of the defense strategy. At least one of them is going to take the majority of the fall, and it makes sense for them to play it this way (as much sense as the legal system can be played). Courtrooms are full of actors and everyone who ends up on the stand has been coached ahead of time.

It's interesting that they won't say whether Carri will take the stand. I don't know really anything about how courtrooms work, but doesn't she HAVE to take the stand? If not, why not?

Wondering in Wa, any chance you could get over to the courthouse and watch the trial? I'm really hoping someone from FJ will show up and shoot the finger and Carri when no one is looking.

[WonderingInWA]

Wondering in Wa, any chance you could get over to the courthouse and watch the trial? I'm really hoping someone from FJ will show up and shoot the finger and Carri when no one is looking.

I wish I could! I'm running around like a chicken today getting my son's school schedule and attending back to school socials at two different locations -- ack! Skagit County is about an hour's drive one way. I would totally do it if I could!!

[Palimpsest]

So, I was trying to catch up. According to the Facebook page, Larry says it is all Carri's fault because he wasn't there, Carri's mother says it is all Immanuel's fault, Larry's defense has rested, and now Carri is on the stand.

Does that sum it up?

Anyone want to guess what she will say:

1. It is all Larry's fault because she was only following the patriarch's orders.

2. It is all Hana and Immanuel's faults because they were rebellious.

3. God told her to do it so Hana's death is all God's fault will.

Usually, the last people to testify are the defendants so this case will probably be with the jury by the end of the week.

WonderinginWA I wish you could go to the trial tomorrow so we could get your perspective. I have a feeling that Carri is going to alienate the jury. She sounds like a very unpleasant person.

Edit due to riffle

[WonderingInWA]

So, I was trying to catch up. According to the Facebook page, Larry says it is all Carri's fault because he wasn't there, Carri's mother says it is all Immanuel's fault, Larry's defense has rested, and now Carri is on the stand.

Does that sum it up?

Anyone want to guess what she will say:

1. It is all Larry's fault because she was only following the patriarch's orders.

2. It is all Hana and Immanuel's faults because they were rebellious.

3. God told her to do it so Hana's death is all God's fault will.

Usually, the last people to testify are the defendants so this case will probably be with the jury by the end of the week.

WonderinginWA I wish you could go to the trial tomorrow so we could get your perspective. I have a feeling that Carri is going to alienated the jury. She sounds like a very unpleasant person.

Argh, my kids are still on summer break so I'd have to take them with me. Not exactly the kind of setting to bring kids to (and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be allowed in). If I get a chance, I will try. I agree on your summary, though. There are going to be protests if these people somehow get off with just a slap on the hand, even in little old Skagit County.

[Palimpsest]

WonderinginWA: I agree. I wouldn't take a child anywhere near this trial either. :cry:

Even if you can't get to court please keep us updated on local reactions when the verdict comes out. Larry's testimony sounded as though the Williamses have pre-planned for Carri to take the fall on this. But FFS, he should have intervened, and no way could he not have noticed the weight loss, he must have condoned the head shaving, and he was a full participant in the beatings, whatever he says now. He should get plenty of jail time too.

I hope the jury is as nauseated by this couple as we are. They are looking at the evidence and hearing the testimony. We are just getting dribs and drabs second hand.

[BravaAmica]

I live in the county adjacent to Skagit and there is nothing in the local county paper. Like it's not on anyone's radar. If there's a sensational verdict, my local paper will pick it up but nothing to date. Seattle has some coverage and there are a few pieces on the national news. There's a reporter for the Skagit Valley Herald doing a great job of the coverage, though.

[Marian the Librarian]

Just checked the Skagit Valley Herald online. Carri is testifying, and says she and Larry had equal parts in establishing and carrying out discipline in their home.

[WonderingInWA]

I'm sure Carri will come up with some support documentation that God told her to do it because that's what the Bible (and Michael Pearl) says. Sigh. Can't wait to read how this afternoon's testimony plays out.

[BravaAmica]

Just checked the Skagit Valley Herald online. Carri is testifying, and says she and Larry had equal parts in establishing and carrying out discipline in their home.

So basically, the defense stratgey is throw each other under the bus and play a game of he said, she said?

[Peas n carrots]

The defense must be extremely desperate to put Carri on the stand. Usually defense teams will do anything to keep the defendant from testifying. I wonder what kind of body language the jury is giving off for the defense to throw the hail Mary pass?

[Peas n carrots]

Has the defense rested with their examination of Carri Williams? I have to admit, I'm very much looking forward to the prosecution taking Carri apart. The biggest question is...WTH did Carri not reach out for help, when what she was doing was obviously not working.

[Black Aliss]

Just checked the Skagit Valley Herald online. Carri is testifying, and says she and Larry had equal parts in establishing and carrying out discipline in their home.

I should think he did! He's the fucking Patriarch, the Decider, the Great Dominionist. Fundie women don't do anything, even sneaking a can of Pepsi, without the approval of her Headship. Damned straight he knew everything that was going on.

I hope that believing in Hell makes it so for those who believe. Because these two deserve to fry for all eternity, right alongside Michael and Debi Pearl, and the Schatzes, and everyone else who used the advice of the Pearls as an excuse to abuse children.

[Black Aliss]

What a coward. Even if I didn't think he was lying through his teeth he is a coward. When the heat is on he throws his wife under the bus. They are both just evil.

Well, yeah. he knows what's going to happen to him when he ends up in the Monroe prison.

[Edit]

[jenny_islander]

Hey, as much as I despise these two sadistic child murderers, can we stop wishing prison rape on people?

[Palimpsest]

Has the defense rested with their examination of Carri Williams? I have to admit, I'm very much looking forward to the prosecution taking Carri apart. The biggest question is...WTH did Carri not reach out for help, when what she was doing was obviously not working.

According to Gina Cole's latest tweets Carri has not finished testifying but is not on the stand right now. She may be back later today or tomorrow for the Prosecution to rip her a new one. A radiologist called by the defense is up and saying that Hana could have been between 15 and 17 when she died. Still casting doubts on her age. I think the defense knows that the jury will definitely convict on the manslaughter charge so they are desperately trying to avoid Homicide by Abuse.

To the bolded: Actually, on that point I think Larry on the stand came across even worse than Carri, if that is possible. Carri seemed to think the Pearl methods were fine. He supposedly knew that their treatment of Hana wasn't working and had stopped beating Immanuel and Hana. If that was so, he is even more culpable in not intervening with Carri's methods and not reaching out for help.

By throwing each other under the bus they are both looking worse.

Carri apparently testified yesterday that she did not know that her treatment of Hana (beatings, starving, making her sleep in the closet, making her stay outside, making her use a porta-potty, etc.) would kill her. Oh, so she wants to say that torturing Hana was just fine because Carri didn't actually intend for her to die. :angry-banghead:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I was just reading some more of the trial coverage. I didn't think it was possible, but now I'm even more disgusted.

Larry wasn't oblivious. He participated in some of the physical punishments, and the outdoor hosing. He saw the damn Port-a-potty. He was a participant in the abuse. If anything, his testimony shows that he was aware that what they were doing wasn't all magic Christian sunshine and roses. Still, even now he says, "it wasn't working". Not "it's was wrong and immoral to treat any human being, let alone your own children, like that".

He knew it wasn't right, and still let it all go on.

She wasn't that stupid either. Yes, she had a mindset that anything that the kids did wrong, and even perfectly normal human behavior, was all "oppositional" and had to be handled via increasingly harsh methods. What is standing out to me is just how determined she was to see the kids as "oppositional", and how her actions went beyond physical harshness and really demonstrated a total lack of affection or even basic human empathy. Yes, I'm a proponent of Attachment theory, but isn't it just basic common sense that if your child is engaging in some extreme behavior like smearing menstrual blood, your first thought shouldn't be punishment but "what exactly is going on with my child to make her do this?" And that if you adopt a child, particularly at an older age, you do everything in your power to make them feel loved and accepted and like part of the family? And that in an international, interracial adoption of older kids, the very last thing that you would ever want to do is treat them differently from your own children and isolate them? And that making the black kids in the family shower and use the toilet and sleep outside, because you think that they are just so bad and dirty and likely to contaminate your own precious white kids, is about the worst and most racist message that you can send?

One of her sons testified that he thought that Hana was possessed by demons. That's how they thought of someone who was supposed to be their sister.

She's not even trying to deny the food part. They gave the kids disgusting food on purpose, they deprived them of meals, and then the kids are considered "oppositional" if they try to get some food, and sent to sleep in a barn. That's so fucked up and disgusting. Does she even hear herself and realize just how far off from normal this is?

Sure, she's crying now. She's crying because she's on trial and faces the very real possibility of jail and the folks in the court are disgusted by her and saying that she killed her daughter. She thinks that saying that she didn't realize that she was killing Hana somehow excuses what she did. This wasn't just "misguided discipline", this wasn't a "whoops didn't know she was dying", this was a deliberate campaign to treat those kids like they were evil and subhuman.

She couldn't even be bothered to get off her ass as her daughter was dying. It was "too hard to watch", so she goes inside without her. She sends out her sons to hit their sister. When Hana starts undressing, she sends her sons instead because "modesty is important to us" - but apparently basic human decency and regard for human life are not. If someone - especially YOUR OWN CHILD - is lying naked in the mud outside, apparently the decent thing in her mind is to shelter her sons' eyes and have them abandon her there.

[WonderingInWA]

Yep, Larry's time on the stand was filled here and there with "I don't remember". Well, that's easy! If you don't remember, then it's not true!

And Carri's crying on the stand -- whether she was being an actress or just finally scared enough to cry about what she'd done, I can't believe she actually said she didn't know what she was doing would actually kill Hana. Well, she has SEVEN biological children and none of them are dead from beating and starvation and their behavior is apparently acceptable (to her) so maybe, just MAYBE, Hana wasn't behaving because what Carri was doing to her was killing her!

I'm going to be really mad if they get off with "just" manslaughter based on the fact no one can pinpoint Hana's age.

[WonderingInWA]

Anyone know if "oppositional" is a Pearl term? I've not read the Pearl book and wondered if it comes from there. It's interesting how Larry and Carri both use it -- it sounds coached.

[Alice_Fraggle]

And if she hadn't died, they'd still be doing it.

That's one of the disgusting truths about this. I'd also bet that they didn't think they'd get caught / go to trial over it.