Williams Abuse Trial - Hana Alemu/Hannah Williams - Merge

[JesusFightClub]

If you watch and applaud torture, you are not less culpable than the torturer.

In fact, aren't you more culpable, even? Because without you, the torturer wouldn't be accepted.

[starfish]

I'd like to see the older sons prosecuted as well.

[splork]

From Gina Cole's twitter:

A few of the more incredible lines from Larry Williams defense attorney's closing statement today:

"Larry's lawyer tells the jury the adopted Williams boy is a self-professed liar and that goes toward his credibility. #Williamstrial"

"Larry Williams' lawyer tells jurors they must consider whether Hana had an eating disorder or ate poisonous plants. #Williamstrial"

Defense lawyer tells jurors to consider whether Larry Williams caused Hana's hypothermia, malnutrition or stomach bacteria. #Williamstrial

[Palimpsest]

The closing arguments from Larry's defense attorney must have been hard for observers to sit through. Lightofdaystories.wordpress.com has a good summary posted and promises more details today.

So, Larry's defense is:

* It is all Carri's fault. She planned and carried out everything. Larry just beat them a few times with a belt (being careful not to use the buckle end!) and then stood by and argued with the plan towards the end. Riiiight. Sorry Larry, you are just as guilty for not intervening even if it was all Carri's doing. And that I doubt.

* Larry and Carri were just naïve and unprepared for the "mental health problems" of 2 older Ethiopian adoptees -- the ones that they never bothered to get diagnosed, treated, and for which they never asked for any help from the adoption agency.

* Immanuel is a liar. Odd that Immanuel's testimony was largely corroborated by the bio children. Also odd that Immanuel's only psych diagnosis is PTSD caused by the abuse he suffered at the hands of the Williamses.

* Hana's death was not from malnutrition or hypothermia. The jury needs to consider bulimia, a poisonous plant, or diabetic ketosis. And the evidence the defense has presented to support Hana's supposed bulimia, habit of munching on poisonous plants, or diabetes is ... nonexistent.

It is a very weak defense, IMO. It will be made even weaker if Carri's defense team argues that Larry was the head of the house and it is all his fault.

Carri's defense closing arguments are this morning. Then the prosecution gets a rebuttal. Then the case goes to the jury, perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow.

I hope the jury has been paying attention and finds both Larry and Carri guilty.

[starfish]

So it's not Carri's fault, it's the fault of that pesky Venus Flytrap plant in the backyard that Hana was inexplicably drawn to.....

Good grief. The stupid hurts.

Big Lar probably had good insurance through Boeing. Why not take Hana to the doctor? (I really wanted the prosecution to ask about the lack of vaccinations, and their kook vaccinations beliefs, and then for everyone to laugh and point at them).

The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not any doubt whatsoever, e.g. aliens come down from the sky and forced Hana to eat poisonous plants......

I hope all the trial spectators bring their popcorn today, because closing arguments for Carri will be quite a show...

[Nothing2CHere]

The closing arguments from Larry's defense attorney must have been hard for observers to sit through. Lightofdaystories.wordpress.com has a good summary posted and promises more details today.

So, Larry's defense is:

* It is all Carri's fault. She planned and carried out everything. Larry just beat them a few times with a belt (being careful not to use the buckle end!) and then stood by and argued with the plan towards the end. Riiiight. Sorry Larry, you are just as guilty for not intervening even if it was all Carri's doing. And that I doubt.

* Larry and Carri were just naïve and unprepared for the "mental health problems" of 2 older Ethiopian adoptees -- the ones that they never bothered to get diagnosed, treated, and for which they never asked for any help from the adoption agency.

* Immanuel is a liar. Odd that Immanuel's testimony was largely corroborated by the bio children. Also odd that Immanuel's only psych diagnosis is PTSD caused by the abuse he suffered at the hands of the Williamses.

* Hana's death was not from malnutrition or hypothermia. The jury needs to consider bulimia, a poisonous plant, or diabetic ketosis. And the evidence the defense has presented to support Hana's supposed bulimia, habit of munching on poisonous plants, or diabetes is ... nonexistent.

It is a very weak defense, IMO. It will be made even weaker if Carri's defense team argues that Larry was the head of the house and it is all his fault.

Carri's defense closing arguments are this morning. Then the prosecution gets a rebuttal. Then the case goes to the jury, perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow.

I hope the jury has been paying attention and finds both Larry and Carri guilty.

Diabetes? They're trying to say that her death may have been caused by uncontrolled diabetes? Well, hell, as a minor, that would still be their fault for not getting her to a doctor and getting her on a treatment program! These people are just horrific.

[WonderingInWA]

So it's not Carri's fault, it's the fault of that pesky Venus Flytrap plant in the backyard that Hana was inexplicably drawn to.....

Good grief. The stupid hurts.

Big Lar probably had good insurance through Boeing. Why not take Hana to the doctor? (I really wanted the prosecution to ask about the lack of vaccinations, and their kook vaccinations beliefs, and then for everyone to laugh and point at them).

The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not any doubt whatsoever, e.g. aliens come down from the sky and forced Hana to eat poisonous plants......

I hope all the trial spectators bring their popcorn today, because closing arguments for Carri will be quite a show...

The lack of vaxing is common, though, so I'm glad th prosecution didn't ask. It's not only common among the homeschooling fundie set, it's becoming more and more common among parents in general who are tired of the AMA being the only authority on health. I vaxed my kids (who are now 14 and 11), but am not sure I would make that same choice now, just based on my own personal beliefs. I think the prosecution knows that's not going to be a strong point and probably doesn't want to distract the jury about whether or not people should vax.

I am eagerly awaiting another report after today's court session.

[Palimpsest]

So it's not Carri's fault, it's the fault of that pesky Venus Flytrap plant in the backyard that Hana was inexplicably drawn to.....

Good grief. The stupid hurts.

Big Lar probably had good insurance through Boeing. Why not take Hana to the doctor? (I really wanted the prosecution to ask about the lack of vaccinations, and their kook vaccinations beliefs, and then for everyone to laugh and point at them).

The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not any doubt whatsoever, e.g. aliens come down from the sky and forced Hana to eat poisonous plants......

I hope all the trial spectators bring their popcorn today, because closing arguments for Carri will be quite a show...

I'm still concerned about the jury understanding "beyond a reasonable doubt." Larry's defense argument throws in everything but the kitchen sink in an effort to create it. Uncontrolled diabetes? WTF! I'm surprised she didn't say that George Anthony once visited town and encouraged Hana to eat a rhododendron or an oleander.

The defense strategy seems desperate to me. Larry chucks Carri straight under the bus. Carri chucks Larry under the bus. Both blame the victims.

I suppose it could confuse the jury. Perhaps they won't be able to decide who is the most guilty so they will go easy on both "parents." Or they can see through this strategy and convict them both.

From Maureen at Lightofdaystories (bolding mine):

To prove these charges, the jury must be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt about torture/assault, about extreme indifference on the part of the abusers, about reckless conduct, about criminal negligence, and about physical/bodily harm.

It sounds as though the prosecution has done a good job of covering all of these in the evidence presented. Larry and Carri have essentially admitted to medical neglect, at least. They didn't take either Hana or Immanuel for regular check-ups and they failed to follow through on recommended follow-up visits for Immanuel after his last visit. That could be thought reckless conduct and criminal negligence by the jury.

I am still not optimistic that the jury will go for homicide by abuse. The uncertainty about Hana's age is the weakest point of the prosecution case and the jury may find reasonable doubt there. Whether I like it or not. That 16 and under requirement is nonsensical and the legislation needs to be changed. Yesterday.

[HoneyBunny]

I hope and hope that the jury will see that, prior to her death, the Wiliamses only raised Hana's age as an issue when it became clear they wanted to dump her at age 18.

[chaotic life]

Maureen's recap of testimony that I'm going through just made me cry. She says when Carrie testified they got a port-a-potty for the hygiene issue what she, the blogger, had to wonder is why not get a therapist instead.

I concur completely. It is heartbreaking to me. ALL of my kiddos who came via adoption had similar behavioral issues to what has been described by Hana and Immanuel, at some point or another. I do not publically discuss those behaviors because I feel my children deserve privacy, privacy to have had their struggles, to have made their mistakes, and to have healed and grown and resolved those behaviors. I DO talk about those behaviors in adoption support arenas, I just don't speak of which child did what nor when. The only exception I EVER made was to discuss the challenges of my Micah. He was so complicated and so exhausting that I HAD to speak to find support to continue to be the best mother I could for him for all of the years I had him.

I just want to SCREAM at these people that these are NORMAL behaviors and there are a MILLION ways to address them OTHER than what they did. They took normal older adoptee behaviors and handled them SO horrifically that they created more problems which led to this cycle of abuse and conflict.

As I'm reading all of this, my preschooler pooped his pants. Now, I could do the Williams method and decide he did so deliberately because I wasn't giving him sufficient attention. Or, I can recognize there's been a GI bug going around this house and he had an accident. I opted to stop, give him a warm shower and put his dirty clothes in to be washed.

[starfish]

The lack of vaxing is common, though, so I'm glad th prosecution didn't ask. It's not only common among the homeschooling fundie set, it's becoming more and more common among parents in general who are tired of the AMA being the only authority on health. I vaxed my kids (who are now 14 and 11), but am not sure I would make that same choice now, just based on my own personal beliefs. I think the prosecution knows that's not going to be a strong point and probably doesn't want to distract the jury about whether or not people should vax.

I am eagerly awaiting another report after today's court session.

Guess I figured people in Washington state were smarter than that. Not to mention that Hana had Hep B. You'd think they might want to get that particular vaccine.

[BravaAmica]

Guess I figured people in Washington state were smarter than that. Not to mention that Hana had Hep B. You'd think they might want to get that particular vaccine.

Sorry to say there's a strong element of whack jobs in Skagit and parts of Snohomish and King county. Because they know better than, you know, a medically trained professional. (No, a natruopath who studied at Baylor is not a medically trained professional. Neither is a chiropractor.) I wouldn't care if it were them or their kids that only got sick from not vaccinating but it effects the vulnerable in the community. I find non-vaxers to be selfish ntwats who are willing to put the community at risk for the sake of their own hubris. Perhaps these idiots need a child or two in hospital with pertussis to see the error of their ways. But I doubt even losing a child would fix that kind of stupid.

[HoneyBunny]

I don't, for a second, believe the "smeared blood on the walls" thing. Not even a little bit. We all know how Carri exaggerates every little shortcoming or action. I imagine that the truth is closer to there being a spot of blood somewhere, completely accidentally and naturally. And if Carri was all that concerned about the others, why not just opt for the Hep vaccines?

[BravaAmica]

I don't, for a second, believe the "smeared blood on the walls" thing. Not even a little bit. We all know how Carri exaggerates every little shortcoming or action. I imagine that the truth is closer to there being a spot of blood somewhere, completely accidentally and naturally. And if Carri was all that concerned about the others, why not just opt for the Hep vaccines?

Because she thinks vaccines are evil and that no one should be getting them. None of her children were vaccinated- not even when she KNOWINGLY adopted a child with Hep B.

[WonderingInWA]

Sorry to say there's a strong element of whack jobs in Skagit and parts of Snohomish and King county. Because they know better than, you know, a medically trained professional. (No, a natruopath who studied at Baylor is not a medically trained professional. Neither is a chiropractor.) I wouldn't care if it were them or their kids that only got sick from not vaccinating but it effects the vulnerable in the community. I find non-vaxers to be selfish ntwats who are willing to put the community at risk for the sake of their own hubris. Perhaps these idiots need a child or two in hospital with pertussis to see the error of their ways. But I doubt even losing a child would fix that kind of stupid.

Well, I know plenty of people who do not vax. It is a personal choice and I certainly have my opinions about both sides of the argument. But I don't want to turn this into a vaxing discussion. I did vax my kids, but looking at their shot records and comparing them to my own when I was their age, it boggles the mind what is "required" today vs. was was required/recommended when I was a young child. It certainly won't be MY kids that get sick and pass it on to non-vaxed kids! I think homeschoolers think their kids won't get sick if they aren't exposed to the heathens in public school which is why they homeschool and also why they don't vax. Circular argument, right?

But yes, if Hana already had Hep B, you would think that would have raised awareness in Carri to at least have the other children vaxed for it rather than have everyone handle her with rubber gloves like she was a leper.

[EmmieJ]

Guess I figured people in Washington state were smarter than that. Not to mention that Hana had Hep B. You'd think they might want to get that particular vaccine.

Sorry to say there's a strong element of whack jobs in Skagit and parts of Snohomish and King county. Because they know better than, you know, a medically trained professional. (No, a natruopath who studied at Baylor is not a medically trained professional. Neither is a chiropractor.) I wouldn't care if it were them or their kids that only got sick from not vaccinating but it effects the vulnerable in the community. I find non-vaxers to be selfish ntwats who are willing to put the community at risk for the sake of their own hubris. Perhaps these idiots need a child or two in hospital with pertussis to see the error of their ways. But I doubt even losing a child would fix that kind of stupid.

This is what I find most troubling about non-vaxxers. Unless they keep their children completely out of any public forum, they put both their children and anyone they are around at risk. Wasn't there a news story just a little bit ago about a church having an outbreak of measles because they preached against vaccinations?

I guess you'd have to homeschool in order not to vaccinate, at least in California. Because parents must provide proof that their child is up to date on vaccinations at the beginning of each school year. I wonder if colleges now ask for something similar.

[Palimpsest]

May I gently and very politely request that we keep the anti- vaccination talk to a minimum on this thread. There is another whole thread devoted to it, so could anti-vaxx folks post their views there and not here.

Yes, I can scroll past it, but it seems disrespectful to Hana. She was an Hep B carrier but she did not have Hep B. And Carri used that as an excuse to abuse her as "diseased." That makes me want to vomit.

As far as we know the vaccination issue was not brought up in court. However, we don't have a full transcript and it may have been. Also, many international adoption agencies require adoptive parents to keep up with vaccinations. Is this yet another thing that slipped through the cracks on the Home Study? Whatever. If Carri and Larry did not vaccinate the whole family against Hep B when they knowingly adopted a child who was a Hep B carrier, I'd call that both criminally stupid and child neglect -- of their bio children. Immanuel was probably already vaxxed against Hep B before he left Ethiopia.

[WonderingInWA]

This is what I find most troubling about non-vaxxers. Unless they keep their children completely out of any public forum, they put both their children and anyone they are around at risk. Wasn't there a news story just a little bit ago about a church having an outbreak of measles because they preached against vaccinations?

I guess you'd have to homeschool in order not to vaccinate, at least in California. Because parents must provide proof that their child is up to date on vaccinations at the beginning of each school year. I wonder if colleges now ask for something similar.

Public schools in Washington state also require vax records, but there is a waiver form that can be completed and filed for religious purposes (or other). The school nurse just needs the records. And the nurse does an annual audit on those records and sends notices to the parents of kids that are out of compliance. That's the part, as a parent, I don't like. The medical community keeps coming up with higher and higher requirements for boosters, so when you think you're done with vaxing, sometimes you aren't based on changing requirements. Once you go down the rabbit hole, though, there's no turning back so you just have to keep playing along.

And it's not just public schools that require the vax records. I had to provide them to our health club for my kids to participate in day camps and overnight camp and we've had to provide them to participate in sports. That's the annoying part of having to provide copies over and over and over and over, all have to be handwritten on whichever paper form the club/school/organization requires. There should be a database maintained by the state for all kids' vax records but there isn't. JMHO.

[Palimpsest]

I'm posting Gina Cole's latest tweets (they need to be read from the bottom up.)

The defense for Carri Williams is desperate. They have conceded that Carri abused these children severely. So severely that Immanuel was so damaged by it that he is a biased witness. Now that is an incredibly tortuous argument and I hope the jury puts it where the sun has never shone. Immanuel conducted himself very well on the stand and was very credible. That poor kid. I hope the defense alienated the jury by being so tough on Immanuel.

Basically the argument is that the jury needs to think about the evidence that the prosecution did not bring up. In other words all the unlikely things that the defense is throwing against the wall just in case something sticks and makes them have reasonable doubt.

The comment that made my anger white hot is this one: "To prove homicide by abuse, state must prove extreme indifference to human life; lots of evidence Carri cared." No. There is lots of evidence that Carri only cared about "breaking" these children by any means she had available to her. There is no evidence that she cared about their survival, let alone their well-being. She wasn't just indifferent to human life -- she actively engaged in behavior that threatened Hana's life. Deliberately. And she succeeded.

Also, Carri's defense attorney, I don't want to lock her in a closet although she should probably have tried it before she sentenced Hana to that punishment. I want Carri in prison for life. I also want Larry in prison for life. They deserve it because they tortured and killed.

Carri Williams' lawyer: Frozen food is unpleasant to eat, but it has the same number of calories. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: Forensic evidence shows it's possible Hana was 16 or older. Homicide by abuse applies only if she was < 16. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: We have no way of knowing whether Hana was bulimic and ha been purging by herself in the portable toilet. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: Hypothermia killed Hana, not anything Carri did; Hana "would have died whether she was malnourished or not." #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: You might hate my client, want to lock her in a closet, see how she likes it. But you can't consider that. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: To prove homicide by abuse, state must prove extreme indifference to human life; lots of evidence Carri cared #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer to jurors: "Certainly these children were abused, and severely abused," but you decide whether it was torture. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer to jury: Don't just consider the evidence the prosecutors showed you; consider what they did not show you. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: Carri Williams was a more credible witness than her husband because she was consistent and up-front. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer: Adopted boy was undoubtedly abused and mistreated, so he's probably biased in this case. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer says his client is guilty of many offenses, abusing children, but not guilty of these charges against her. #WilliamsTrial

Carri's lawyer says adopted boy isn't necessarily lying about things but might not be reliable "in terms of recounting facts" #WilliamsTrial

Carri Williams' lawyer making closing argument now. He also is questioning adopted boy's credibility. #WilliamsTrial

[RachelB]

Y'all know this already, but I would like to point out that most children of Hana's age who have adequate access to safe and healthy food tend not to take their chances on unidentified plants. And many poisonous plants don't taste very good to us, evolution having given us a clue. If she was eating poisonous plants, which I doubt, it was probably because she was already in danger of starving.

I hope her adoptive parents never see the light of day again.

Re: the defense lawyer's suggestion that any witness who has been beaten and abused is too biased to be believed in a child abuse trial? But child abusers are not too biased for their testimony to be believed? :angry-steamingears:

THAT IS BULLSHIT.

[DifferentGurl]

May I gently and very politely request that we keep the anti- vaccination talk to a minimum on this thread. There is another whole thread devoted to it, so could anti-vaxx folks post their views there and not here.

Yes, I can scroll past it, but it seems disrespectful to Hana. She was an Hep B carrier but she did not have Hep B. And Carri used that as an excuse to abuse her as "diseased." That makes me want to vomit.

As far as we know the vaccination issue was not brought up in court. However, we don't have a full transcript and it may have been. Also, many international adoption agencies require adoptive parents to keep up with vaccinations. Is this yet another thing that slipped through the cracks on the Home Study? Whatever. If Carri and Larry did not vaccinate the whole family against Hep B when they knowingly adopted a child who was a Hep B carrier, I'd call that both criminally stupid and child neglect -- of their bio children. Immanuel was probably already vaxxed against Hep B before he left Ethiopia.

I'm sorry if this sounds dumb, but what's the difference between being an Hep B carrier and actually having Hep B?

[Palimpsest]

I'm sorry if this sounds dumb, but what's the difference between being an Hep B carrier and actually having Hep B?[/quote]

Not a dumb question at all. I'll try to explain later (as a lay person not a medic) but I want to focus on the trial tonight. The short answer is that Hana was not symptomatic for Hep B. The long answer is that reasonable precautions (which do not include treating the carrier as a leper) are usually sufficient to avoid contracting it.

And FUCK! I said leper! I usually avoid that word with every fibre of my being. Leprosy, AKA Hanson's Disease, is not nearly as infectious as the Bible would want you to believe. I could write so much about that. Let me just say: the way Carri (and Larry) treated Hana's Hep B carrier status was abusive in and of itself.

ETA tried to fix quotes

[Peas n carrots]

I'm a bit stunned how Carri's own defense attorney threw her under the bus. Granted, he is a Public Defender and doesn't have anything to lose in this fight.

[WonderingInWA]

I'm a bit stunned how Carri's own defense attorney threw her under the bus. Granted, he is a Public Defender and doesn't have anything to lose in this fight.

I just think he doesn't have a lot to go on. I did think it was interesting he's trying to throw in the possibility that Hana was bulemic. Yeah, and she might have been a circus performer, too. Hey, anything is possible here! Wow.

[Palimpsest]

From the latest Gina Cole tweets (link posted above) it looks as though the Judge has lost patience with the Defense. Judges are usually careful. They don't want appeals.

The Defense popped up like Jack in the Boxes objecting to the rebuttal.

The Judge over-ruled. Eleven times. Yay, Judge!

This Defense is just BULLCRAP. Yeah, they are public defenders and have to do their jobs. But really. They have nothing to work with here and have admitted to it. It is a last ditch defense for these abusers, tortures and killers.

Can we all send prayers, good thoughts, etc to the jury so that they see the reality here. I sympathize with the jury but I hope that they can ignore the defense and their arguments.

My big hope is that Hana's death is not in vain. We have to draw attention to the abuses perpetrated by the mind set of Larry and Carri Williams.

Remember: This is not an isolated case.

Disclaimer: sometimes I'm on the side of the defense and admire their efforts to do their best to get the defendant off in a fucked up case. Not this time. No how, no way.