Williams Abuse Trial - Hana Alemu/Hannah Williams - Merge

[2xx1xy1JD]

Here, trial scheduling is up to the trial coordinator clerk. There is a bit of leeway sometimes to call an expert that has very limited availability (like doctors), and sometimes one witness needs to proceed another if one is a rebuttal witness.

Sometimes, you do ask questions designed to get a reaction from a witness.

I've had the very odd case where a couple colluded and agreed for one to take the fall as "the bad guy", but I don't think that's necessarily happening here. She really may be so set in her thinking that, even now, she's convinced herself that she was wonderful and Hana was an awful, evil child that brought this all on herself. Not a shred of remorse or acknowledgement that she ever did anything wrong.

[WonderingInWA]

Here, trial scheduling is up to the trial coordinator clerk. There is a bit of leeway sometimes to call an expert that has very limited availability (like doctors), and sometimes one witness needs to proceed another if one is a rebuttal witness.

Sometimes, you do ask questions designed to get a reaction from a witness.

I've had the very odd case where a couple colluded and agreed for one to take the fall as "the bad guy", but I don't think that's necessarily happening here. She really may be so set in her thinking that, even now, she's convinced herself that she was wonderful and Hana was an awful, evil child that brought this all on herself. Not a shred of remorse or acknowledgement that she ever did anything wrong.

Which is the Debi and Michael Pearl talking. The Pearls have no remorse or acknowledgement that they've ever done anything wrong either -- they feel fully justified in preaching their child-rearing (oh, sorry, TRAINING) tactics. I've seen a few interviews with them (there is one where they are sitting on the lowered shovel of a tractor) and they were demonstrating the use of a switch and plumbing line on the journalist (who complains that it hurts), and they are just as arrogant and confidant as ever that that is appropriate. I haven't read their book, but I'm sure they have also advocated food-related "correction" as well -- anything to make a child uncomfortable in order to modify their behavior. Carri Williams went too far with it and killed her daughter. But as I said before, if Hana hadn't died, she'd still be doing it.

[lilith]

These two morons just don't get it.

Is anyone from the fundie community standing by them?

I know the Pearls have disassociated themselves from all the families who killed a child following their instructions and have stated multiple times that they should never be used on adopted kids.

But the Pearls think that parents of biological children shouldn't adopt, especially not from evil Africa where the children are "schooled in evil sexual behaviour".

[WonderingInWA]

I know the Pearls have disassociated themselves from all the families who killed a child following their instructions and have stated multiple times that they should never be used on adopted kids.

But the Pearls think that parents of biological children shouldn't adopt, especially not from evil Africa where the children are "schooled in evil sexual behaviour".

(My bolds). Really? I had never heard this before, but then I don't follow the Pearls very closely. In a country with free speech, they are just smart enough to know they can never get in trouble for what they preach. It is amazing and sad to me that they have sold so many copies of TTUAC. I don't understand it.

[lilith]

(My bolds). Really? I had never heard this before, but then I don't follow the Pearls very closely. In a country with free speech, they are just smart enough to know they can never get in trouble for what they preach. It is amazing and sad to me that they have sold so many copies of TTUAC. I don't understand it.

Yep. Michael Pearl has distanced himself from the deaths in interviews and insisted that the parents of the dead children were not following his instructions, and that they were never meant for adopted kids anyway.

His rants against international adoption and the sin it brings into the home are in No Greater Joy magazine.

[chaotic life]

I knew a professor who was an expert witness consulted by the Schatz investigators who told me there were actual emails between the Schatz parents and Michael Pearl during the several days of "training" that led up to Lydia's death. The parents took a plea bargain and the evidence was never brought to trail, so I obviously cannot prove that claim now. However, the same person told me that Pearl's dogs were taken into custody while he was investigated and he DID post something on his website about two weeks later stating his dogs were returned. I consider her credible but I cannot release her name, so take that with all the veracity as you choose to assign it.

I really WANT to be shocked by Carri Williams and her defiance on the stand. Except, that is exactly consistent with what witnesses and those who knew her have SAID she is like. I want to slap her for stating that Hana was not thin and killed herself, but it would be wasted energy. Carri Williams will NOT change nor learn. Maybe finding her guilty will both bring justice for Hana and Immanuel and *maybe* give those other children a chance to learn how to NOT view the world now. If she gets life in prison, then in forty years, she'll defiantly tell her parole board that Hana killed herself just as surely as she sat there and told the jury the same. I don't see the ability to rehabilitate this woman, and frankly if she were by some miracle found not-guilty and got her children back, she would use the SAME methods she already used. She would never torture her biological children in the manner she did Hana and Immanuel but she wasn't exactly mother of the year to those kids either. Afterall, she would punish deliberate rudeness, which is likely anything SHE feels she doesn't want to hear coming out of your mouth.

[WonderingInWA]

I knew a professor who was an expert witness consulted by the Schatz investigators who told me there were actual emails between the Schatz parents and Michael Pearl during the several days of "training" that led up to Lydia's death. The parents took a plea bargain and the evidence was never brought to trail, so I obviously cannot prove that claim now. However, the same person told me that Pearl's dogs were taken into custody while he was investigated and he DID post something on his website about two weeks later stating his dogs were returned. I consider her credible but I cannot release her name, so take that with all the veracity as you choose to assign it.

I really WANT to be shocked by Carri Williams and her defiance on the stand. Except, that is exactly consistent with what witnesses and those who knew her have SAID she is like. I want to slap her for stating that Hana was not thin and killed herself, but it would be wasted energy. Carri Williams will NOT change nor learn. Maybe finding her guilty will both bring justice for Hana and Immanuel and *maybe* give those other children a chance to learn how to NOT view the world now. If she gets life in prison, then in forty years, she'll defiantly tell her parole board that Hana killed herself just as surely as she sat there and told the jury the same. I don't see the ability to rehabilitate this woman, and frankly if she were by some miracle found not-guilty and got her children back, she would use the SAME methods she already used. She would never torture her biological children in the manner she did Hana and Immanuel but she wasn't exactly mother of the year to those kids either. Afterall, she would punish deliberate rudeness, which is likely anything SHE feels she doesn't want to hear coming out of your mouth.

Yes, I'm hoping someone asks her to define "deliberate rudeness". That's usually subjective, right? I would think so, Carri.

[WonderingInWA]

Another perhaps naive question: Given that Larry is in jail and Carri isn't, are they allowed to contact one another privately or does every contact they have have to go through attorneys? Or, is there no contact allowed?

[chaotic life]

IIRC, the communications of prisoners even in jail are monitored so even if they are having communication, I would imagine it is being monitored and screened. I don't think spousal privilege applies to jailhouse communications, but I could be wrong.

I caught up on Friday's trial information since I was WAY TOO busy with my own life to monitor it. Here's my beef with the Williams couple AND others who end up doing such horrific things to these adoptees. Carrie Williams said "I did the best I could with the resources I had."

LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!!!!

This is the precise lie I hear constantly by people who are in trouble. Yet, they don't seek therapy for the kids. They don't seek support groups for themselves. They don't contact their adoption agencies to see if they even HAVE post-adoption support services. They do NOTHING but make things get worse until they cannot take it anymore and then they pitch their little temper tantrum that they did the best they could.

Okay, so if Carri really did the best she could then here is my response.

Why did you continue to homeschool children you were in clear conflict with instead of getting the free respite that public school provided? Why did you not seek speech therapy services for Immanuel, which were attainable EVEN as a homeschooler. Why did you not take Hana to the doctor for her losing weight? Why did you not seek out post-adoption services anywhere? Why did you not contact your agency (not that I'm thrilled with the agency in this case for this situation and several others I am aware of)? Why did you not contact DCFS and tell them you were in a crisis and needed help? DCFS is NOT just the big scary monster that steals children. In fact, most of their work is about referring at risk families to appropriate resources. They take children as a last ditch effort, not a first stance. IF Hana truly had an eating disorder, WHY was she not in intensive therapy, coordinated with her physician as sometimes those with eating disorders need SSRIs for the OCD type processes that develop at low body weights? Why when she lost *that* much weight did you not consider inpatient services for her IF it was truly an eating disorder. Why did you not seek out your local Ethiopian immigrant community (I was connected and got SCREENED by the West African Immigrant community this weekend once again, as they assessed whether I was taking "proper" care of my children and as always happens when I have those encounters, I was humble and reassuring, immigrant communities are a LIFESAVER when you cannot understand what may very well be a cultural misunderstanding with your child, specially older children). Why did you not seek help? Why did you not cry out? Why did you not even speak to your crafting, homeschooling, etc friends or your church? Those would have been the WRONG resources to tap into, but at least they would have been RESOURCES.

No, a parent who does everything they can has their children in services, has a support team, has a doctor trying to figure out why their child has lost 30 pounds over two years when they should be gaining weight, has therapists for eating issues or attachment issues, or whatever was supposedly truly wrong with Hana. They tap into the services the public school will offer, and they humble themselves with some children that are in high conflict with them to stop homeschooling, take OFF the teacher authority and focus on the parental relationship during that struggle.

My god, Carrie Williams, you were NOT in the Bible Belt south. You were in the PNW, one of the more aggressive areas for social service supports, and one of the hotbeds for adoption where resources actually EXIST. You were a day's drive from CO with even better resources and an email away from dozens of experts who could have walked you through how to deal with the issues you faced. MY GOD, for want of asking for help and telling someone, ANYONE that you were struggling, you COST A GIRL HER LIFE. Don't sit there and convince yourself that you were doing everything you COULD because you didn't do ANYTHING except operate under castle doctrine and get worse and worse as your methods caused these children to slid into a deadlock struggle with you.

[WonderingInWA]

And Larry worked for Boeing. The company has plenty of resources through their EAP program that are free to them. He's to blame, too, for not just picking up the phone and calling EAP. This girl was purposefully isolated from any help she could have received. I love how Carri claims she did "the best she could". It is a classic cop-out statement.

[starfish]

My guess is that Carri's parents are totally enabling that attitude of "I did the best I could" and allowing

her to indulge herself.

[Alice_Fraggle]

I am (not so) patiently waiting for the jury's response. I hope she gets the worst that's available to the judge and jury. Although I hate getting jury duty - THIS case is the reason I'd take it any day of the week. We need decent people to sit on juries in these cases, and make the right decisions to protect these kids.

Also - ChaoticLife - thank you so much for your insights. I always love reading your replies - in any thread - because they're always so well thought out and well said.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The only possible verdicts I can see for Carri would be homicide by abuse or manslaughter, plus assault.

She is not criminally insane. She appears to be of average intelligence. She voluntarily took on the adoption of these children - she wasn't forced into a situation with no support. She managed to raise 7 children without killing them.

I know my background is very different, but in my world, mothers tend to obsess over whether their children are hungry or cold. They don't need anyone to actually say, "you know, if you keep giving your kids inedible food or forcing them to skip meals, and if they look like they might be getting skinnier, they may actually be starving." They don't need to be told, "it's not a good idea for a child, especially a thin one, to stay outside in the rain for hours at a time on a cold day if they are wearing just a t-shirt and shorts." Anyone who has ever been cold and wet knows that it is uncomfortable, that at a certain point you can't feel your extremities, and that you can get to the point that it's hard to move properly. If your child is bleeding on the ground, you pick them up and wash and dress the wound.

"I didn't know" is a crock of shit. A pack of wild wolves would have provided more appropriate care.

This wasn't about not knowing. This was about a sort of willful blindness. She never viewed Hana the way that she viewed her own biological kids. In her mind, Hana wasn't really her child - instead, she was a source of evil that was a threat to her children. Once she was in that mindset, Carri refused to see Hana in any other way. I looked at some of the examples given of her "rebelliousness". Sneaking food, especially junk food. Well, that would describe most kids I know, including my own. Since I love my kids, my thoughts were "stop buying cookies" and "make sure they fill up on healthy stuff instead", not "lock them in a closet or send them to sleep in a barn." There was more - changing an answer to a math problem indicates that she's a liar, she put capital letters in the middle of some words which was a sign of rebellion, etc.

Crocodile tears. Carri isn't the least bit sorry about how she treated Hana, but she's very sorry that Hana had the nerve to actually die and force her to go through the trial process.

[VenusDaisy]

QFT!!!!

The only possible verdicts I can see for Carri would be homicide by abuse or manslaughter, plus assault.

She is not criminally insane. She appears to be of average intelligence. She voluntarily took on the adoption of these children - she wasn't forced into a situation with no support. She managed to raise 7 children without killing them.

I know my background is very different, but in my world, mothers tend to obsess over whether their children are hungry or cold. They don't need anyone to actually say, "you know, if you keep giving your kids inedible food or forcing them to skip meals, and if they look like they might be getting skinnier, they may actually be starving." They don't need to be told, "it's not a good idea for a child, especially a thin one, to stay outside in the rain for hours at a time on a cold day if they are wearing just a t-shirt and shorts." Anyone who has ever been cold and wet knows that it is uncomfortable, that at a certain point you can't feel your extremities, and that you can get to the point that it's hard to move properly. If your child is bleeding on the ground, you pick them up and wash and dress the wound.

"I didn't know" is a crock of shit. A pack of wild wolves would have provided more appropriate care.

This wasn't about not knowing. This was about a sort of willful blindness. She never viewed Hana the way that she viewed her own biological kids. In her mind, Hana wasn't really her child - instead, she was a source of evil that was a threat to her children. Once she was in that mindset, Carri refused to see Hana in any other way. I looked at some of the examples given of her "rebelliousness". Sneaking food, especially junk food. Well, that would describe most kids I know, including my own. Since I love my kids, my thoughts were "stop buying cookies" and "make sure they fill up on healthy stuff instead", not "lock them in a closet or send them to sleep in a barn." There was more - changing an answer to a math problem indicates that she's a liar, she put capital letters in the middle of some words which was a sign of rebellion, etc.

Crocodile tears. Carri isn't the least bit sorry about how she treated Hana, but she's very sorry that Hana had the nerve to actually die and force her to go through the trial process.

[Black Aliss]

I want to channel the anger I'm feeling toward Carri and Larry Williams into pushing for more oversight of these religiously-affiliated adoption agencies. I'm absolutely not against international adoption but these children are not commodities, not souls needing to be saved, not potential house slaves, and in many cases not even orphans. I just wish I knew where to start.

[WonderingInWA]

The only possible verdicts I can see for Carri would be homicide by abuse or manslaughter, plus assault.

She is not criminally insane. She appears to be of average intelligence. She voluntarily took on the adoption of these children - she wasn't forced into a situation with no support. She managed to raise 7 children without killing them.

I know my background is very different, but in my world, mothers tend to obsess over whether their children are hungry or cold. They don't need anyone to actually say, "you know, if you keep giving your kids inedible food or forcing them to skip meals, and if they look like they might be getting skinnier, they may actually be starving." They don't need to be told, "it's not a good idea for a child, especially a thin one, to stay outside in the rain for hours at a time on a cold day if they are wearing just a t-shirt and shorts." Anyone who has ever been cold and wet knows that it is uncomfortable, that at a certain point you can't feel your extremities, and that you can get to the point that it's hard to move properly. If your child is bleeding on the ground, you pick them up and wash and dress the wound.

"I didn't know" is a crock of shit. A pack of wild wolves would have provided more appropriate care.

This wasn't about not knowing. This was about a sort of willful blindness. She never viewed Hana the way that she viewed her own biological kids. In her mind, Hana wasn't really her child - instead, she was a source of evil that was a threat to her children. Once she was in that mindset, Carri refused to see Hana in any other way. I looked at some of the examples given of her "rebelliousness". Sneaking food, especially junk food. Well, that would describe most kids I know, including my own. Since I love my kids, my thoughts were "stop buying cookies" and "make sure they fill up on healthy stuff instead", not "lock them in a closet or send them to sleep in a barn." There was more - changing an answer to a math problem indicates that she's a liar, she put capital letters in the middle of some words which was a sign of rebellion, etc.

Crocodile tears. Carri isn't the least bit sorry about how she treated Hana, but she's very sorry that Hana had the nerve to actually die and force her to go through the trial process.

THIS! All of it, so well-written. I especially like the parts I bolded here. Thankyou, 2xx1xy1JD.

[AuntCloud]

Thank you, 2xx1xy1jd!

My extensive knowledge of law includes a single introductory course in business law, where I learned about due care - what would a reasonable person or professional do. A reasonable person would have done the polar opposite of what l/carri have done.

Can't wait for the verdict.

[Kat-rat]

Horrifying. It would be nice if the Pearls were ever held responsible for the abuse, misery and death that their "advice" has wrought. They distance themselves from these killers but the parents used their book as a manual and the results are dead children.

How can they just wash their hands of the situation? If someone claimed that running a hose from the tailpipe of your car to the interior of an enclosed space cured cellulite certainly they would be brought up on charges or at least named in a lawsuit.

[Arete]

If you willfully starve your child as a form of punishment, you are a monster. I hope the Pearls spend a good long time parked in Hell, but if you are stupid enough to read their books and think they are shitting rubies, you are still a monster.

[WonderingInWA]

I keep hearing the phrase "wet sandwiches" and can only imagine what that really means. Did Carri make sandwiches and the run them under the faucet to make them a drippy mess?

[Lillybee]

Horrifying. It would be nice if the Pearls were ever held responsible for the abuse, misery and death that their "advice" has wrought. They distance themselves from these killers but the parents used their book as a manual and the results are dead children.

How can they just wash their hands of the situation? If someone claimed that running a hose from the tailpipe of your car to the interior of an enclosed space cured cellulite certainly they would be brought up on charges or at least named in a lawsuit.

I am fairly sure that if the Schatzs didn't take the plea bargain, Butte County DA Ramsey would have bought up the Pearls. He was horrified with TTUAC.

[Palimpsest]

The trial is back in session. The judge spent time instructing the jury and the prosecution are beginning closing arguments now. The judge's instructions are by the book per Gina Cole. A lot depends on how old the jury believes Hana to have been and what they think about corporal punishment in general. I think WA's child abuse laws need significant overhauling. The "substantial bodily harm" definition seems too narrow to me.

Some people wore T-shirts with Hana's face on them in court. :oops: The defense asked for them to be removed and the judge complied. I hope the defense doesn't claim that to be an effort to influence the jury and squeal for a mistrial. Immanuel should not have to go through this again.

Here is the twitter for the Skagit Herald Reporter in case you don't have it and want to follow her tweets.

Gina Cole@Gina_SVH

[javafriend]

Yes, Carri made wet sandwiches for the adoptees by pouring water on peanut butter sandwiches. This was a punishment. The bio kids also sometimes made these sandwiches for their adopted sibs - apparently at Carri's request.

Both parents deserve the most severe punishment allowed by law. And all the bio kids need intensive counseling in order to learn empathy and respect for their fellow human beings.

[sonja_kat]

From Gina Cole's twitter:

Larry's lawyer: "The evidence is overwhelming that Carri Williams designed, planned and implemented this entire program."

Wow

[WonderingInWA]

From Gina Cole's twitter:

Larry's lawyer: "The evidence is overwhelming that Carri Williams designed, planned and implemented this entire program."

Wow

Hm. Can't wait to see how this all plays out. I have suspected all along that this was the strategy -- to pit the parents against each other so only one of them takes the fall. I will be very disappointed if they don't throw the book hard at both of them. What a circus.