Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth Are Freaking Creepy

[debrand]

Glad to know I've been doing it all wrong. I spent years joking around with some platonic male friends, and still joke around constantly with my husband. Yes, I consider a sense of humor essential for marriage.

The Botkins sound like the most boring people on the planet. I joke with many people, including some men. Most of the guys treat me like a sister or mother figure.

[ThatSnark]

So all the books and the video are fine for them and their target group, but does Geoff ever speak about what the plans are for AS and E? It's probable that a 16- to 20-year-old young lady would go with her family to homeschool conferences and other ATI gatherings and magically meet up with Fundie Prince Charming. But at these ages, their peers are the homeschool mothers of preschoolers through grade schoolers by now. The other "girls" in their late 20s have close to a decade of marriage behind them and are navigating dominionist parenting. How do the Botkins not see this? Do they ever discuss this?

[louisa05]

Whether they are 26/28 or 28/30 or somewhere in between...they write about themselves as if they are both about 16. They are not girls and the males who are their peers are not boys. It is past time for them to realize that they are grown women. Even if the target audience of their books is intended to be teens, that doesn't make them teens.

All they really convince me of is that this "stay at home daughter" thing is an excuse to remain in perpetual childhood.

[Olive Plant]

A bio at their Visionary Daughters site dated October 25, 2006 says they are 23 and 21 at that time. Which means they are or will be turning 30 and 28 sometime this year.

Where did you find those birth dates?

ETA: In another post, they identify themselves as being 16 and 14 in 2001...which would bring us back to 28/26.

Those are the birth dates I see for them on Facebook, in the public information in the About section. But it's possible those aren't accurate.

Edited to add: older brother David's birthday is listed as May 24, 1983, which means he's 30, so AS has to be a little younger than that unless the whole family is into pretending to be younger than they are.

[gustava]

I just wanted to point out that the quote gustava used came from a link to a fundie blog about a Botkins' seminar. The Botkin sisters go crazy with semicolons and commas but I don't think that they make any spelling errors. Some of their long sentences could be broken into smaller ones.

Homophone error: course/course

Subject/Verb Agreement: talk, not matters, is the subject and is singular.

Debrand....I lift a glass to your willingness to read through dreck and relay the content to us. I don't have the strength :worship: :worship:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

So all the books and the video are fine for them and their target group, but does Geoff ever speak about what the plans are for AS and E? It's probable that a 16- to 20-year-old young lady would go with her family to homeschool conferences and other ATI gatherings and magically meet up with Fundie Prince Charming. But at these ages, their peers are the homeschool mothers of preschoolers through grade schoolers by now. The other "girls" in their late 20s have close to a decade of marriage behind them and are navigating dominionist parenting. How do the Botkins not see this? Do they ever discuss this?

I wonder about this too.

It's almost as if they think they're somehow "frozen in time," that at some point Fundie Prince Charming will show up and they'll resume life again, as if they really are upper teens.

As if (1) Fundie Prince Charming isn't going to notice, and (2) their biological processes have stopped, or something.

It's creepy.

As you point out they're now quite out of step with their peers. If they were looking to get married in the secular world, they'd find a cohort of first-time-Moms-to-be in their mid-30's, it's a fairly common pattern (even if definitely not the only one) for secular people. First-time-Moms groups will have people from upper-teens all through to 30's. But in the fundie world?

As it is, when they go to these big conferences, do they talk with other women their own age? If they do they must feel weirdly shut out as all the talk is focused on parenting. Or do they consider themselves children still (a la the Maxwells) and try to hang around with single upper teens? If so that's gotta be weird too...

Thank heavens the circles I move in are full of childless people and people who had kids at a variety of ages, it's just less homogenous and easier to fit in (personally I'm middle-aged and childfree).

[Shirley MacLaine]

As it is, when they go to these big conferences, do they talk with other women their own age? If they do they must feel weirdly shut out as all the talk is focused on parenting. Or do they consider themselves children still (a la the Maxwells) and try to hang around with single upper teens? If so that's gotta be weird too...

.

I always wonder if AS and E have any close girl friends.

[ladyamylynn]

I wonder about this too.

It's almost as if they think they're somehow "frozen in time," that at some point Fundie Prince Charming will show up and they'll resume life again, as if they really are upper teens.

As if (1) Fundie Prince Charming isn't going to notice, and (2) their biological processes have stopped, or something.

It's creepy.

As you point out they're now quite out of step with their peers. If they were looking to get married in the secular world, they'd find a cohort of first-time-Moms-to-be in their mid-30's, it's a fairly common pattern (even if definitely not the only one) for secular people. First-time-Moms groups will have people from upper-teens all through to 30's. But in the fundie world?

As it is, when they go to these big conferences, do they talk with other women their own age? If they do they must feel weirdly shut out as all the talk is focused on parenting. Or do they consider themselves children still (a la the Maxwells) and try to hang around with single upper teens? If so that's gotta be weird too...

Thank heavens the circles I move in are full of childless people and people who had kids at a variety of ages, it's just less homogenous and easier to fit in (personally I'm middle-aged and childfree).

You know, there's been some speculation in the past about how AS and E are perceived by their peers, and I think they've kind of just answered that question with the whole "seeing girls of any age talk to our brothers makes our blood boil" statement and "only serious conversations with males" rule. What, do they just stand around and throw stink-eye at everybody? Probably.

[ThatSnark]

I suspect it was less obvious a few years ago, but their patriarchal system doesn't really leave a role for them in their current states. They could be like the ubiquitous Victorian "maiden aunt," the permanent housekeeper-babysitter, but that is not what they are selling. The more years go by without a smashing fundie royalty match for one or both of these princesses, the more their message gets diluted.

And I can't imagine how their peers perceive them. Their married-with-children agemates would likely dismiss them, since they have no idea what they're talking about regarding marriage, and those still single might look to them for hope, but the biological reality is that they have 15 years, tops, to fill their quivers going forward, and it's not looking good. Do they set their standards lower? Outright ask Geoff for introductions?

I'd be very interested to read a "young man's" take on what it's like to interact with them in one of these serious conversations-- if those conversations did in fact ever take place.

[salex]

Anyone else see the similarities between the Botkin Sisters and the Baldwin Sisters from the Waltons? Oh, I mean other than the Baldwins seem more fun?

[Shirley MacLaine]

Hahahahahahaha. On point.

G'nite, Geoff-boy

[DomWackTroll]

Anyone else see the similarities between the Botkin Sisters and the Baldwin Sisters from the Waltons? Oh, I mean other than the Baldwins seem more fun?

They sure were. More than once, John Sr. and Grandpa came home from the Baldwins' totally wasted after guzzling Papa's Recipe. I'd love to party with Miss Mamie and Miss Emily. The Botkins, not so much.

[TurtleBelly]

[TurtleBelly]

The image on left is from gawker.com's snarky article about the NY Times article, "Sex on Campus: She Can Play That Game, Too." (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/fashi ... d=all&_r=0). The image seems to be just a stock photo to me, used by gawker, but not used by NYT. I think we all know where the image on the right comes from... :lol:

(I guess I don't know how to adjust picture size very well.)

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Being paranoid as fuck probably makes it easier. Seriously, they're starting to sound like Marky Mark the delusional men's rights advocate who never gets laid.

Eww I had a dream Marky Mark was a peeping Tom last night and took photos of me getting dressed...& FJ then discussed it.

Ok back to topic :)

[Talitha Cumi]

A.) The unmarried one converts to Catholicism and joins a convent

B.) The unmarried one goes Full Ophelia

C.) Menage?

I say B. The one left over states repeatedly how happy she is for her sister, and how marvelous that Daddy Geoff's, er, I mean God's plan is taking shape in her life. She blogs maybe once every six months on how daughters should behave, and in private goes fucking bugnuts. :pull-hair:

[Sobeknofret]

Anyone else see the similarities between the Botkin Sisters and the Baldwin Sisters from the Waltons? Oh, I mean other than the Baldwins seem more fun?

At least the Baldwin sisters had their Papa's Recipe!

ETA: D'oh! Someone beat me to it!

[Talitha Cumi]

Debrand, your awesome to subject yourself to reading anything by the botkin sisters critically. The book only gets worth if my memory is right (my s-sister gave it to me 2 years ago as my graduation present for finishing my bachelors degree). I found it a hilarious read in the context of how I grew up and how she really thought this would help me out when some gentleman (her word) asked me out. Lol I read it because I knew she would ask me about it later (I also have the DVD they did and their book so much more which the same sister gave me for my high school graduation). Would be willing to lend them out if anyone wants to watch or read so no one has to buy them. Though a disclaimer that your head might hurt after trying to reason out their logic is a side effect of reading anything from them)

Oh, I want to see the DVD! PMing you shortly. :)

[Talitha Cumi]

Isaac doesn't look like someone you'd like to have as a party guest. He looks like the kind of person that either wouldn't get jokes or always offended when other people laughed at jokes. In a way, he almost looks like the stereotypical movie serial killer.

Reminds me of this guy:

[TrueRebel1]

As it is, when they go to these big conferences, do they talk with other women their own age? If they do they must feel weirdly shut out as all the talk is focused on parenting. Or do they consider themselves children still (a la the Maxwells) and try to hang around with single upper teens? If so that's gotta be weird too...

Back in my fundie days as a young, single adult, it was so awkward, if not embarrassing, to be in a group of married women. There was this unspoken stigma that you weren't part of the grown-up women's group unless you were married. If it was a potluck or dinner party, any single adults were seated with the children. :( Thus I was much more comfortable hanging out with the kids (though I really didn't fit in with them either!). And when I finally got engaged, I was absolutely elated to finally be accepted as a grown-up! :?

I can't even imagine how difficult it must be to be 30ish and still hanging out with the young-teen crowd.

[Olive Plant]

Reminds me of this guy:

Why, why would you do that?! CB is the hottest guy in the world (literally) and IB is a pasty weirdo. Now they're linked in my mind.

[Marian the Librarian]

Anyone else see the similarities between the Botkin Sisters and the Baldwin Sisters from the Waltons? Oh, I mean other than the Baldwins seem more fun?

This is so perfect! Thank you!!

:clap: :clap:

[Ms Lucy Fur]

You have to be a special ultimate grand supreme kind of icky to have a syndrome named after you.

[Burris]

The first words out of her mouth were, essentially, the Old Testament equivalent of saying, "Imagine meeting you on my way back from the soup kitchen where I was volunteering today? Hey, I have a feast in my kitchen left over from what I took to prayer meeting this week, and there are still some cookies that the orphans didn't eat. ..."

From little girls who have never been taught that? No - that is complete and utter bullshit. They have never seen this because it does not happen. Seriously; I'd sooner believe it if they wrote how they'd seen someone grow back an amputated limb than this.

What? Were we wrong about this woman. Maybe we shouldn't have judged her by her skanky clothing. She sounds like a really find Christian woman!

Skanky? I wonder if the Botkins realize how their own clothing would be viewed in, say, Saudi Arabia where I understand that women wear head-coverings or burqas?

I've seen some pictures of those two women, and their clothing is fairly form-fitting. They have tined hair. They wear make-up. I rarely saw girls that made-up when I went to school. We had uniforms and a conduct code. I'm not kidding when I say the Botkins' appearance would have surprised me a little when I was 14 or 15.

I remember a time, when I was about eight or nine, when I wore a shirt too big for me and it slipped off one of my shoulders. My grandfather told me I looked like a prostitute.

Slut-shaming - see how stupid it is?

And what starts out as 'innocent' fun can quickly turn into a deadly crime. Once we give a little slack to our more selfish and fleshy impulses, and let ourselves entertain temptations-one tiny little compromise at a time-we have taken down our resistance to committing serious, life-destroying sins.

That's...actually true, but not for any of the reasons those two think. I also suspect their definition of "deadly" differs markedly from what average people would think.

If we lived in a time when we had to watch people we know be stoned to death for letting those little compromises lead all the way to adultery(Deut 22) we would take this kind of thing-even the little first-step sins-much more seriously than we do

Oh, how nice. What a charitable sentiment, and pretty much on-par with their view of single mothers as clingy parasites desperate for their sainted brothers' attentions merely to snag good men and suck them dry.

[SamuraiKatz]

I have always thought that perhaps AS and E are pen names for Geoff Botkin.