Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth Are Freaking Creepy

[Marian the Librarian]

Some new quotes from the book

They are slut shaming little girls! How low can you be to slut shame kids?

and

I should explain that the sisters are using out of context verses in the book of Proverbs to prove how crappy all women are. Apparently, helping people doesn't count for squat if the sisters find your clothing objectionable.

but more disturbingly

Stoning a few women would keep little girls from flirting! :evil-eye: :pink-shock: This actually makes me angry.

:o

Words fail me. "Snooty bitches" no longer suffices as a descriptor for these two - these latest quotes indicate certifiably pathological thinking. They may be physically attractive, but what's inside them makes ugly look good.

I wonder if the good damsels A-S and E would care to explain their many appearances and speechifying at - and implied endorsement of - Dougie Phillips' annual father-daughter retreats? You know, the one where little girls perfect the art of gazing worshipfully at their daddies while they learn to shave them?

[AnnaSofia]

How many brothers do they have? I know at least two are married.

5, I believe.

I think the youngest 2 are still young-ish teens, and Isaac, the eldest, is unmarried.

The middle two are David, married to Nadia (one child) and Ben, married to Audrey (one child).

[Nootbar]

[*]Botkins on courtship: pureheartlight.wordpress.com/tag/courtship/

Edited to break link - lilith

[lilith]

[*]Botkins on courtship: pureheartlight.wordpress.com/tag/courtship/

Edited to break link - lilith

Quote from link:

"They wisely began with telling the listeners not to take all they say without consulting God’s word and mentioned that they are not experts on this topic. Mr Botkin gave an excellent introduction explaining they are not championing their own methodology or selling anything. They go on to say they simply want to take their own experiences and give guidelines to the listeners, but that each family will have to decide for themselves the best way to go about courtship, or whatever each family chooses to call it"

Then they go on to explain how the Botkins have told them exactly how they should go about every aspect of courtship.

[debrand]

The young man needs to find a young woman who needs him; not just someone he needs.

This quote is from the link that someone posted. This seems to line up with something in the book Its Not That Complicated. The sisters twisted some bible verses to prove that women were made for women but men weren't made for women. So, women were put on earth to serve, protect and encourage men. From what I gather, they believe women are supposed to live through men not the other way around. I'm uncertain why any mother would want to teach this to her daughter especially because it is not backed up by any in context biblical verses.

Another way to tell whether one is responsible and mature is are they willing to confess their faults to their parents.

Again, this is from the article not the book. I could see this causing parents to overstep natural boundaries and demand that even their children's deepest thoughts be open to them.

No wonder the Botkin sisters are so hateful. They probably aren't allowed to even have their own private thoughts.

Course jesting and joking are out of the question in friendships with the opposite sex. Serious talk about spiritual matters are every important, helpful and needful if you want to know whether someone is right or not for marriage. Conversations should be substantial, serious and personal. All activities done should be in family settings so as to watch interactions with siblings, parents and to guard purity.

No matter how beautiful the sisters, this type of interaction would be a damper on a young man getting to know them. I also think that the Botkin's vision on how the sexes are supposed to interact would make it less likely that they will find husbands. It isn't impossible that they marry but Geoffrey Botkins would probably have to take an active part in finding their husbands and his ideals for a son-in-law are probably too extreme for most young men.

Can you imagine a suitable man having dinner at the Botkins house? The sisters might have intelligent conversation but they are probably a bit cool toward you. No matter how you enjoy the conversation, you are going to think that the two aren't attracted to you so why bother. You will probably end up married to a slightly more open young woman who isn't against being goofy with you.

[Shirley MacLaine]

man and here I've always thought a great sign of maturity is the ability to set boundaries with one's parents

[Sobeknofret]

Oddly, their utter ridiculousness makes me more interested in them. It's like watching a train-wreck in slo-mo; you know it's going to happen, it's just a matter of when exactly it's going to happen.

Personally, I believe that they're happy being unmarried. They seem to find it much more fulfilling than getting married and popping out babies, and relegated to the fundy shelf, like their compatriot Kelly Bradrick.

[copper]

If you don't marry them off, they'll slow up your multigenerational plan.

The girls aren't in the multigenerational plan, right? It's only the sons that carry on the line. I uncharitably believe this is part of their ongoing singleness. It's a plus for Daddy when the boys marry, but a minus when the girls leave. And a minus for free labor. It all makes sense when you think of women as property--in the wealthy families, there's no need to rush the girls out. The father is a wealthy philanthropist--supporting mission trips, midwifing, women's ministries, and the writing of godly children's books (Duggars, Botkins, Maxwells). The less wealthy families with fewer resources give up their girls earlier and easier, to further the generational plans of others (Coghlans, Bates, etc).

[Shirley MacLaine]

The girls aren't in the multigenerational plan, right? It's only the sons that carry on the line. I uncharitably believe this is part of their ongoing singleness. It's a plus for Daddy when the boys marry, but a minus when the girls leave. And a minus for free labor. It all makes sense when you think of women as property--in the wealthy families, there's no need to rush the girls out. The father is a wealthy philanthropist--supporting mission trips, midwifing, women's ministries, and the writing of godly children's books (Duggars, Botkins, Maxwells). The less wealthy families with fewer resources give up their girls earlier and easier, to further the generational plans of others (Coghlans, Bates, etc).

Hmm, maybe they aren't in Geoff's plan. But what about the GOOD OF CHRISTENDOM or whatever? I feel like for a big multigenerational plan he's keeping it pretty small picture.

[Marian the Librarian]

The girls aren't in the multigenerational plan, right? It's only the sons that carry on the line. I uncharitably believe this is part of their ongoing singleness. It's a plus for Daddy when the boys marry, but a minus when the girls leave. And a minus for free labor. It all makes sense when you think of women as property--in the wealthy families, there's no need to rush the girls out. The father is a wealthy philanthropist--supporting mission trips, midwifing, women's ministries, and the writing of godly children's books (Duggars, Botkins, Maxwells). The less wealthy families with fewer resources give up their girls earlier and easier, to further the generational plans of others (Coghlans, Bates, etc).

Au contraire! here's a quote from Kathryn Joyce's book, "Quiverfull:"

There were complications when Geoffrey Botkin’s first daughter, Anna Sofia, was born. The problems were physical—Anna Sofia’s mother, Victoria, could have died—and more esoteric, too. Geoffrey Botkin is one of the leading voices of a ministry called Vision Forum, the intellectual avant-garde of fundamentalism. One of Vision Forum’s chief concerns is child-rearing, which the movement considers both a process of theological conditioning and an art lost sometime in the 19th century. So as Botkin held his newborn daughter perfectly still in his cupped hands, he prayed to God for guidance: after having raised two older sons, how should he raise a daughter? He felt God move him to a specific prayer for the infant sleeping in his hands, a prayer for her body. He remembered baby girls are born with two ovaries and a finite number of eggs that will last them a lifetime. He placed his hand over his new daughter’s abdomen and prayed for Anna Sofia to be the “future mother of tens of millions.†He prayed that the Lord would order everything in his daughter’s life: “What You will do with every single egg here. How many children will this young lady have? Who will be her husband? With what other legacy will these little eggs be joined to produce the next generation for the glory of God?†He explained to a room full of about six hundred fathers and daughters gathered for the annual Vision Forum Father and Daughter Retreat that he had prayed that his new daughter might marry young.

[salex]

Au contraire! here's a quote from Kathryn Joyce's book, "Quiverfull:"

There were complications when Geoffrey Botkin’s first daughter, Anna Sofia, was born. The problems were physical—Anna Sofia’s mother, Victoria, could have died—and more esoteric, too. Geoffrey Botkin is one of the leading voices of a ministry called Vision Forum, the intellectual avant-garde of fundamentalism. One of Vision Forum’s chief concerns is child-rearing, which the movement considers both a process of theological conditioning and an art lost sometime in the 19th century. So as Botkin held his newborn daughter perfectly still in his cupped hands, he prayed to God for guidance: after having raised two older sons, how should he raise a daughter? He felt God move him to a specific prayer for the infant sleeping in his hands, a prayer for her body. He remembered baby girls are born with two ovaries and a finite number of eggs that will last them a lifetime. He placed his hand over his new daughter’s abdomen and prayed for Anna Sofia to be the “future mother of tens of millions.†He prayed that the Lord would order everything in his daughter’s life: “What You will do with every single egg here. How many children will this young lady have? Who will be her husband? With what other legacy will these little eggs be joined to produce the next generation for the glory of God?†He explained to a room full of about six hundred fathers and daughters gathered for the annual Vision Forum Father and Daughter Retreat that he had prayed that his new daughter might marry young.

[nokidsmom]

Au contraire! here's a quote from Kathryn Joyce's book, "Quiverfull:"

Well, he screwed the pooch on that one then, didn't he, LOL> I figure between them their being "old maids" has saved the planet from at least 15 possibly more little Dominionists in training.

Hallelujah and all that jazz!

[gustava]

If this is a direct quote, these girls need both a good editor and a better education. Shall I point out all the grammatical errors????

Course jesting and joking are out of the question in friendships with the opposite sex. Serious talk about spiritual matters are every important, helpful and needful if you want to know whether someone is right or not for marriage. Conversations should be substantial, serious and personal. All activities done should be in family settings so as to watch interactions with siblings, parents and to guard purity.

If the errors are a result of transcription, then kudos to the transcriber for still having even one hair on her/his head!!!

[Olive Plant]

28 and 30

AS' birthday is September 24, 1985 (assuming Facebook is accurate) which means she'll be 28 in a few months. E was born August 19, 1987, making her almost 26. I did the math right, right?

Brother Isaac is 32 and unmarried which really makes me suspicious. Is a a hermit or does he not find women attractive? Perhaps he is sane on some level and can't stomach the idea of marrying a woman who bows to his every whim and desire. Plus I have no idea how any of them plan to support a family with their little schemes once they leave the larger Botkin conglomerate. Obviously David and Ben are still part of that conglomerate. Way to leave your father and mother and cleave unto your wives, guys.

[Sobeknofret]

AS' birthday is September 24, 1985 (assuming Facebook is accurate) which means she'll be 28 in a few months. E was born August 19, 1987, making her almost 26. I did the math right, right?

Brother Isaac is 32 and unmarried which really makes me suspicious. Is a a hermit or does he not find women attractive? Perhaps he is sane on some level and can't stomach the idea of marrying a woman who bows to his every whim and desire. Plus I have no idea how any of them plan to support a family with their little schemes once they leave the larger Botkin conglomerate. Obviously David and Ben are still part of that conglomerate. Way to leave your father and mother and cleave unto your wives, guys.

Isaac doesn't ping my gaydar, but he does strike me as a deeply serious man with a laser focus on his work. I suspect he would think of a wife as a distraction from his studies and his filmmaking/propaganda projects. It's also the way I suspect the Botkinettes see their life; they're too focused and involved in the propaganda machine that is the Western Conservatory to want to give it all up for the life that they'd lead as wives and mothers.

[Bookworm89]

Debrand, your awesome to subject yourself to reading anything by the botkin sisters critically. The book only gets worth if my memory is right (my s-sister gave it to me 2 years ago as my graduation present for finishing my bachelors degree). I found it a hilarious read in the context of how I grew up and how she really thought this would help me out when some gentleman (her word) asked me out. Lol I read it because I knew she would ask me about it later (I also have the DVD they did and their book so much more which the same sister gave me for my high school graduation). Would be willing to lend them out if anyone wants to watch or read so no one has to buy them. Though a disclaimer that your head might hurt after trying to reason out their logic is a side effect of reading anything from them)

[Sobeknofret]

Debrand, your awesome to subject yourself to reading anything by the botkin sisters critically. The book only gets worth if my memory is right (my s-sister gave it to me 2 years ago as my graduation present for finishing my bachelors degree). I found it a hilarious read in the context of how I grew up and how she really thought this would help me out when some gentleman (her word) asked me out. Lol I read it because I knew she would ask me about it later (I also have the DVD they did and their book so much more which the same sister gave me for my high school graduation). Would be willing to lend them out if anyone wants to watch or read so no one has to buy them. Though a disclaimer that your head might hurt after trying to reason out their logic is a side effect of reading anything from them)

I would like to borrow the DVD! I can pm you my address!

[debrand]

Isaac doesn't look like someone you'd like to have as a party guest. He looks like the kind of person that either wouldn't get jokes or always offended when other people laughed at jokes. In a way, he almost looks like the stereotypical movie serial killer.

[freealljs]

Isaac doesn't look like someone you'd like to have as a party guest. He looks like the kind of person that either wouldn't get jokes or always offended when other people laughed at jokes. In a way, he almost looks like the stereotypical movie serial killer.

I just see a serious guy who does not want to be bothered by women like his AS and E. He reminds me of some of my math professors.

[nelliebelle1197]

And he really looks much older than 32.

[louisa05]

AS' birthday is September 24, 1985 (assuming Facebook is accurate) which means she'll be 28 in a few months. E was born August 19, 1987, making her almost 26. I did the math right, right?

Brother Isaac is 32 and unmarried which really makes me suspicious. Is a a hermit or does he not find women attractive? Perhaps he is sane on some level and can't stomach the idea of marrying a woman who bows to his every whim and desire. Plus I have no idea how any of them plan to support a family with their little schemes once they leave the larger Botkin conglomerate. Obviously David and Ben are still part of that conglomerate. Way to leave your father and mother and cleave unto your wives, guys.

A bio at their Visionary Daughters site dated October 25, 2006 says they are 23 and 21 at that time. Which means they are or will be turning 30 and 28 sometime this year.

Where did you find those birth dates?

ETA: In another post, they identify themselves as being 16 and 14 in 2001...which would bring us back to 28/26.

[mlady]

The whole problem with this type of courtship with siblings and parents is that it's written for children. Young girls who are being paired off with a guy for the sake of the family. It doesn't translate when talking about older women like the Botkins since often parents are gone and siblings may/may not exist or be THAT involved anymore. At some point people do want to live their own lives and no longer fit this courtship model. When mom and dad are gone and brothers have their own families the daughters either live their lives and make their choices, including flirting, joking around, etc. if they actually want to have a grown up relationship with a guy who may be their husband one day. They are no longer little girls being, uhh, sold into marriage. They have to offer something more than a hymen to a grown up man or the only guys they will attract is the "virgin fetish" type. And you only get ONE first time girls, after that you have nothing,

[debrand]

A bio at their Visionary Daughters site dated October 25, 2006 says they are 23 and 21 at that time. Which means they are or will be turning 30 and 28 sometime this year.

Where did you find those birth dates?

ETA: In another post, they identify themselves as being 16 and 14 in 2001...which would bring us back to 28/26.

I came up with 30 and 28 based on the ages in the 2006 article. My guess is that the Botkins might fudge the sisters ages a bit because they are trying to market them to younger women.

There are parts in the book where I wonder if they are completely honest with their examples. For example, on page 107 they discuss going through a period in which they wore baggy pants and sweat shirts to be modest. This, is according to them, bad and girls should try to be beautiful. I don't understand how Geoffrey Botkin's daughters would be allowed to wear jeans. I think that the Botkins probably see girls in jeans and big shirts and are trying to pretend that they went through a period of dressing a certain way so that they can identify with a target group.

My point is that I think that the Botkins aren't above being a little dishonest to convince girls to follow their example so aren't above playing with the sisters' ages.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If this is a direct quote, these girls need both a good editor and a better education. Shall I point out all the grammatical errors????

If the errors are a result of transcription, then kudos to the transcriber for still having even one hair on her/his head!!!

Glad to know I've been doing it all wrong. I spent years joking around with some platonic male friends, and still joke around constantly with my husband. Yes, I consider a sense of humor essential for marriage.

[debrand]

Glad to know I've been doing it all wrong. I spent years joking around with some platonic male friends, and still joke around constantly with my husband. Yes, I consider a sense of humor essential for marriage.

I just wanted to point out that the quote gustava used came from a link to a fundie blog about a Botkins' seminar. The Botkin sisters go crazy with semicolons and commas but I don't think that they make any spelling errors. Some of their long sentences could be broken into smaller ones.