Another Bates Courtship

[sunshine]

Here's the exchange on the Bates blog that could be interpreted as a less-than-cultish fervor about Gothard:

Hi Kelly,

I am so pleased for Zach and Whitney.

I agree with you 100% about adoption and the tremendous blessing it can be to a family. I have heard that Mr Gothard has said some rather negative things about adoption and without knowing whether they are true or not I wondered if you would be willing to share your views on this .

I appreciate that not everything you read on the internet is true so I’d love to hear what you think about it.

Reply

Kelly July 19, 2013 at 6:52 pm

Dear Sheila,

We have read his material on adoption long ago. Our overall impression was that he wanted parents to check their motives… The motive of the adopting parents should be to focus on meeting the spiritual and emotional needs of the children. I can’t remember every point in the material, but as with any speaker, measure everything by Scripture…Learn whatever you can, and weed out the rest…but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. There are many wonderful speakers we learn from, but we don’t agree with everything they say. No one is perfect, that’s why we have the Bible as our final authority. Now, if it is a doctrinal issue (salvation, etc) that is being taught wrong, we must avoid that teaching all together, since the Bible warns about its danger. But for differences in areas like this, we listen…try to learn what we can…ask God to show us His will…and come to a decision of our own based on that. Love, Kelly

Would the Duggars stick to their guns about Gothard's weird point of view? Probably not.

[HereticHick]

I think one reason why I am drawn to the Bates so much more now than the Duggars (apart from being from the same part of the country) is that I see actual change and growth in their family, albeit in small amounts. With the Duggars--Josh moving to DC being the BIG exception--all I see is stagnation. Physical, psychological and educational stagnation.

Grown children trapped at home. Neglected small children learning very little. And one more trip to the dentist.

The TinkerToyHouse must smell more fetid by the day.

[Queen Of Hearts]

I think one reason why I am drawn to the Bates so much more now than the Duggars (apart from being from the same part of the country) is that I see actual change and growth in their family, albeit in small amounts. With the Duggars--Josh moving to DC being the BIG exception--all I see is stagnation. Physical, psychological and educational stagnation.

Grown children trapped at home. Neglected small children learning very little. And one more trip to the dentist.

The TinkerToyHouse must smell more fetid by the day.

I agree with you, HereticHick. I can respect people with differing views to my own IF I can see that they are at least willing to admit when they are wrong and grow from the experience. To me, that is a much better 'character quality' than simply staying with the status quo because "that is how it has always been done/some church leader told them to do it that way." The Bates will always be conservative and Bible-focused. That won't change. But they do seem willing to at least adapt their views to better their family. Their older kids appear to be capable of living life as adults on their own, and not as cloistered Jslaves on a compound somewhere. They seem to be recognized for their individual accomplishments and interests and allowed to evolve as individuals in their own right. With them, I see a close family that loves and respects each other and spends time together because they enjoy each other's company. With families like the Duggars, I see a group that spends time together because they are told that they must.

[Pretzel]

I also noticed that the older Bates kids have their own favorite "sibling-buddies" they like to hang out with. They don't appear to be pressured to ALWAYS stick together in a group no matter if you can stand your sister today or not. With the Bates, Alyssa and Erin and lately also Josie seem to form a clique whereas Michael seems to enjoy her mother's company or doing stuff with girls from other fundie families;Nathan and Lawson spend time together while older brother Zach meets girls at Sonic, and so on. That is actually healthy. With so many children, you cannot expect them to like each other equally. The Duggar's are so stiff in their worldview and so averse to positive change it makes my heart ache for all their victims (i.e. Jana, Joy and the 4 lost girls). It's saddening to hear Kelly stress that the Duggars are SO!GREAT!!1 and that they can learn such a lot from them. No, you can't. However as of late I started thinking that she may just use that phrase as a hidden "Yea, they paid our house so I rather not mention my honest opinion about them to the public".

With the rather honest answers on her blog Kelly actually does her family a big favor.

[laila_lea]

Never guessed it would be Zach, but good for him! The pictures are horrible though.

Looks like the Bates will be moving several kids out of the house in the coming years. Erin is almost married. Zach is courting. Alyssa is pre-courting. Michael is visiting other families out of state. Nathan has caught the eye of a local family. You have to wonder if Lawson is meeting someone between lawn mowing jobs.

Meanwhile at the TTH..........crickets.

Sorry to dig up a [relatively] old post, but could you please clue me in on the Nathan situation? I don't recall reading anything about him specifically recently. All of this courting has got me hooked on the Bates family! Also, we can throw Tori into the 'potential' mix too. She's turning 18 this year so it is certainly plausible for her to have a 'special friend' very soon as well. Jim-Bob, watch your back! Things are looking mighty dull in Arkansas ;)

[walnut]

Call me naiive, with the i topped with double dots, but I cannot see Erin as a servant. She's been acting like a princess from the beginning, and some men just love princess type women, they need a queen to adore.

[formergothardite]

Here's the exchange on the Bates blog that could be interpreted as a less-than-cultish fervor about Gothard:

Hi Kelly,

I am so pleased for Zach and Whitney.

I agree with you 100% about adoption and the tremendous blessing it can be to a family. I have heard that Mr Gothard has said some rather negative things about adoption and without knowing whether they are true or not I wondered if you would be willing to share your views on this .

I appreciate that not everything you read on the internet is true so I’d love to hear what you think about it.

Reply

Kelly July 19, 2013 at 6:52 pm

Dear Sheila,

We have read his material on adoption long ago. Our overall impression was that he wanted parents to check their motives… The motive of the adopting parents should be to focus on meeting the spiritual and emotional needs of the children. I can’t remember every point in the material, but as with any speaker, measure everything by Scripture…Learn whatever you can, and weed out the rest…but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. There are many wonderful speakers we learn from, but we don’t agree with everything they say. No one is perfect, that’s why we have the Bible as our final authority. Now, if it is a doctrinal issue (salvation, etc) that is being taught wrong, we must avoid that teaching all together, since the Bible warns about its danger. But for differences in areas like this, we listen…try to learn what we can…ask God to show us His will…and come to a decision of our own based on that. Love, Kelly

They are lying about what Gothard says about adoption or they really haven't read any of his adoption material. Gil is a semi-employee of IBLP, he and Kelly make videos for them and encourage others to join, it isn't like they are just regular ATI members who are new to all this. What Gothard REALLY says about adoption is this:

Causes of Conflicts — Adopted children are affected by the sins of their natural parents, and these sins are usually very severe

Then he goes on to say that if the adopted child is old enough, “Explain that just as physical weaknesses are passed down through parents, so are spiritual weaknesses such as pride, lust and rejection (see Exodus 20:5).â€

http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

[Pretzel]

Call me naiive, with the i topped with double dots, but I cannot see Erin as a servant. She's been acting like a princess from the beginning, and some men just love princess type women, they need a queen to adore.

Well, good for Erin. I'm thinking of that Bradrick (?) guy who, blessed with the possibly most beautiful woman in fundieland, misses no opportunity to self-display his dumbo ears and degrading his wife in public. I don't want to know what that @$$ does to his wife in private.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Erin is far better off than her and I am kinda happy for her. Girl's got talent and I wish her some freedom to pursue her career. They are one of the few couples I can imagine becoming more fundie-lite or pull a Joshua McDonald/Rebekah Keller.

[Melissa19128]

They are lying about what Gothard says about adoption or they really haven't read any of his adoption material. Gil is a semi-employee of IBLP, he and Kelly make videos for them and encourage others to join, it isn't like they are just regular ATI members who are new to all this. What Gothard REALLY says about adoption is this:

Causes of Conflicts — Adopted children are affected by the sins of their natural parents, and these sins are usually very severe

Then he goes on to say that if the adopted child is old enough, “Explain that just as physical weaknesses are passed down through parents, so are spiritual weaknesses such as pride, lust and rejection (see Exodus 20:5).â€

http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

I agree... Gil is listed on iblp.org on the board of directors page. They can't be leaning too far away from Gothard.

iblp.org/about-iblp/corporate-information/board-directors

[TheJewAmongUs]

I just LOL-Ed at this part:

a local restaurant where Whitney works, called Sonic.

AKA she works at Sonic.

Anyway, after looking through the pictures, I realized how expensive it is to have multiple fail courtships. He has to buy matching shirts, necklaces, cheesecake samplers, wooden letters, meals in restaurants for the couple and the chaperones. It really adds up, maybe even more than regular ol' dating.

[patsymae]

I agree... Gil is listed on iblp.org on the board of directors page. They can't be leaning too far away from Gothard.

iblp.org/about-iblp/corporate-information/board-directors

Well. from my point of view I'm actually glad he is spouting that. If this dumbass "logic" is what it takes to keep these freaks from adopting, then that's fine with me. Every idiot family that is dissuaded from adopting is one more child that stays with her natural mother/father/extended family/culture/country. Absolutely, reject adopting "heathen" "orphans." Every child of impoverished or poor or helpless parents rejected by ATI is one less child subjected to this freak show.

[Fluffles]

Sorry to dig up a [relatively] old post, but could you please clue me in on the Nathan situation? I don't recall reading anything about him specifically recently. All of this courting has got me hooked on the Bates family! Also, we can throw Tori into the 'potential' mix too. She's turning 18 this year so it is certainly plausible for her to have a 'special friend' very soon as well. Jim-Bob, watch your back! Things are looking mighty dull in Arkansas ;)

This reminds me so much of the time in Desperate Housewives when the hot gardener guy was "meeting" one of the wives in between lawn mowing jobs!

[sully82]

Sorry to dig up a [relatively] old post, but could you please clue me in on the Nathan situation? I don't recall reading anything about him specifically recently. All of this courting has got me hooked on the Bates family! Also, we can throw Tori into the 'potential' mix too. She's turning 18 this year so it is certainly plausible for her to have a 'special friend' very soon as well. Jim-Bob, watch your back! Things are looking mighty dull in Arkansas ;)

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. There was a link somewhere back in this thread for a link to another fundy family's blog. They had visited the Bates, and their daughter seemed to really take an interest in Nathan. There were lots of pictures of him, and she went on and on about how great he was. Pure speculation, but it appears she likes her some Nathan.

[formergothardite]

I left a comment with Gothard's exact words on one of the problems with adoption and asked if they agreed with this part of his teachings. Of course they did not post it. No way they are going to really bite the hand that feeds them. There is also no way that they got that high up in ATI without knowing that he teaches sins are passed down from the father to the child and that this includes adopted children. They want to provide the illusion that Gothard really doesn't warn against adoption. A key part of bringing in new cult members is to downplay the negatives of the cult teachings and make it look harmless. The Bates are experts at doing this.

[Guest]

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. There was a link somewhere back in this thread for a link to another fundy family's blog. They had visited the Bates, and their daughter seemed to really take an interest in Nathan. There were lots of pictures of him, and she went on and on about how great he was. Pure speculation, but it appears she likes her some Nathan.

That was the Roberts family, and I also think that there might be some matchmaking in mind between the two families. As for the speculation between Daisy and Nathan, I don't blame the girl.

[ari_belle]

I just LOL-Ed at this part:

AKA she works at Sonic.

Anyway, after looking through the pictures, I realized how expensive it is to have multiple fail courtships. He has to buy matching shirts, necklaces, cheesecake samplers, wooden letters, meals in restaurants for the couple and the chaperones. It really adds up, maybe even more than regular ol' dating.

:lol: I've never thought of that! Not to mention all of those expensive visits that can be as far as the whole span of the country. Gas ain't cheap, especially for a hockey team bus.

[Hisey]

Every idiot family that is dissuaded from adopting is one more child that stays with her natural mother/father/extended family/culture/country. Absolutely, reject adopting "heathen" "orphans." Every child of impoverished or poor or helpless parents rejected by ATI is one less child subjected to this freak show.

Not a big fan of fundie adoptions here, but I must correct this sentence.

Every idiot family that is dissuaded from adopting is one more child that stays in an orphanage or foster care.

Cause that's where these kids are. They are not living happily in perfect homes waiting to be snatched by fundies. They are in third world orphanages, or moving from home to home each year in foster care, or being sold into prostitution or sleeping in the streets of a big South American city. The "freak show" that offends us so might be, to them, a good-enough home with a chance for regular food and medical care.

Most of these children adopted internationally (I have spoken to many adopted at ages 12-15) would jump at any chance to get out of the desperate poverty and hopelessness of their orphanage. And most laugh at the idea that they'd give up life in the US in exchange for keeping their culture. Most of these kids have been rejected by their "culture" anyway (for example, if their mother gave birth to them out of wedlock). Give them credit that they have the brains to dump fundiedom when they are adults; don't assume they are helpless fools who can't see fundiedom for what it is.

I agree it's not an ideal home but let's not pretend there are many other great options out there for the world's foster children and orphans.

Frankly, if it were my 5-year old who was alone in the world, I'd rather have her in a US fundie home than sleeping in the streets of a big city in Brazil.

[bananacat]

Hisey, I disagree. Abusive fundie adoptions aren't "better than nothing" or "better than the alternative". And yes, some of the youth might jump at the change to come live with a fundie family, but they're children and don't always make good decisions and would likely regret it in the end. Orphanages are terrible, but fundie homes are no better. Every horror story you hear about an orphanage applies to many of the fundie homes these kids would end up in - too many other kids for the caregivers to properly care for, not enough food and other resources, lack of medical care, lack of education, and abuse at the hands of caregivers. But at least in the orphanage they get to have some connection to their former life and continue speaking the language they already know, and keep the name they are used to, and I'd say it's an even split about which place is more likely to force religious indoctrination on them. And within their own culture, they're more likely to be seen as real people and not just tokens to make adults look good.

We'll never solve the problem of these orphanages if people continue to insist that any place in the United States is clearly better than anything that could be done for them in their home country. All the money that fundies spend on collecting kids they treat like pets from poor countries would be better spent actually improving the condition of those areas. It's not a heroic act to adopt internationally and I give no credit to anyone who does it.

[walnut]

Well, good for Erin. I'm thinking of that Bradrick (?) guy who, blessed with the possibly most beautiful woman in fundieland, misses no opportunity to self-display his dumbo ears and degrading his wife in public. I don't want to know what that @$$ does to his wife in private.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Erin is far better off than her and I am kinda happy for her. Girl's got talent and I wish her some freedom to pursue her career. They are one of the few couples I can imagine becoming more fundie-lite or pull a Joshua McDonald/Rebekah Keller.

I need to catch up on this subject. Bradrick who? What is his full name? And I most definitely want to see the Dumbo ears. I *need* to see them :lol:

[nokidsmom]

I need to catch up on this subject. Bradrick who? What is his full name? And I most definitely want to see the Dumbo ears. I *need* to see them :lol:

Just want to mention that I totally agree that Erin's going to a lot better off. She's got a man that clearly cares about her (we aren't hearing that "sturdy woman" nonsense from Chad), she has considerable talent other than standing around and looking pretty, and probably because while she does have the princess thing going, she's certainly not going to opt for servitude. And as I have mentioned before, Kelly Bradrick is a walking example to all fundie women that betting married and popping out a bunch of kids in short order, can be a really miserable existence and being married to a fundie big shot doesn't prevent that misery.

[Pretzel]

I need to catch up on this subject. Bradrick who? What is his full name? And I most definitely want to see the Dumbo ears. I *need* to see them :lol:

ncficDOTorg/blog/posts/peter-bradrick-and-the-ncfic-internship

there he is in all his dumbo-ey glory...

[bal maiden]

Chad and Erin could be the next JimBob and Michelle... I don't think there's much denying that Jimbob and the J'Uterus really do love each other, particularly that JimBob worships Michelle. Same dynamic with Chad and Erin. Maybe they'll pop out 10 or so kids since they are so deliriously happy together, and then suddenly Erin will realise a la Michelle that she's up shit creek without a paddle...

[singsingsing]

Maybe, but I don't think Chad has the same inferiority complex as Jim Bob, nor does Erin have Michelle's overgrown sense of guilt about her SHOCKING pre-Christian sins such as kissing boys and wearing a bikini. So hopefully they may be a little more mentally stable. Hopefully.

[Dandruff]

It would be nice if Erin could continue to give piano lessons, record, and (depending on where they live) take music classes...though I'm sure things would change when the babies come.

[Pretzel]

I don't know enough about this guy, but I hope that before any relations, they ask God for guidance. And I also hope God tells them where to buy condoms.