19 Kids and Counting 2013 - The Duggars do Part 4

[Mama Mia]

My sixth grade English teacher was a stickler for grammar. She said, "Even if you are the poorest of the poor, education through high school is free. Learn & use proper grammar, and people will respect you more than if you use slang, say "ain't" & butcher the English language." She told me about a lady she knew who was beautiful, married into a wealthy local family, but was made fun of by her social circle because she never bothered to learn proper grammar. She had the money, house, clothes, hair, makeup & car, but when she opened her mouth her upbringing was obvious.

That made a huge impression on me, but it pissed my mom off. She said people should not be judged by their speech or lack of education.

I tend to speak differently around my mom, who will call me out for "trying to be proper," than my coworkers & friends.

To the bolded, it sounds like that woman needed a better class of friends.

[Mama Mia]

It's too bad that your mom doesn't understand why it's so important to you.

I'm shocked over the disdain so many in the United States today have for educated people. And I'm not talking about Harvard educated people; that's straw man nonsense. I'm talking about people who've personally made an effort to learn to communicate well or to grasp basic science principals or to understand the fundamentals of their own country's history.

We're clearly slipping as a culture when millions upon millions of people look up to an intellectually vapid creature like Sarah Palin (Jesus, was she really almost a heartbeat away from being the leader of the free world, or was that all just a nightmare?) or who vote for a congressman because he believes in the Bible over science instead of his reality-based opponent who is deemed "too smart for his own good".

We talk about all of the dimwits and whack jobs in Congress out here all the time. But how and why did they land in office in the first place?

Language matters. Science matters. History matters. And if we continue to celebrate the dumbing down of America, we're going to end up in even worse trouble than we are now.

To your bolded statement: Do you understand that you aren't communicating well if you spend your time putting down how others communicate ?

You aren't communicating a message, you aren't communicating information, you aren't appearing more intelligent -- you just are communicating that you are petty and condescending.

The original topic that you decided to complain about was Michelle using improper grammar in her reaction to Anna's Labor. This isn't a topic where her using proper grammar matters. At all. Not even a little, teeny, tiny bit. So your "correction" just makes you look silly. Really. It isn't about the dumbing down of American culture. It's about someone complaining about something completely irrelevant.

[DarkAnts]

I wonder Josh will be supplied with a "handler" of some sorts. TLC and FARC have too much invested in him. If they are smart, they will have someone baby sit him. This could easily blow up in their face if they are not careful.

[JenniferJuniper]

I agree with the bolded and I disagree with the italisiazed. Science and history are based on facts, research, proof, evidence, and experimentation (obviously some of those apply more to one than the other). You are not entitled to make up your own version of either one because if you do you end up contradicting reality. Language, on the other hand, is completely and 100% arbitrary. There is nothing inherent about any language that makes one thing correct and one thing incorrect. The only reason Standard English is considered proper is because that is the version of English spoken by those in power. This is not about education this is about where someone lived during their formative years, that's all.

It's not the speakers speech patterns to overcome. The listener needs to overcome their prejudices.

But precisely how are those "facts, research, proof and experimentation" communicated to others?

And the answer is...drum roll please....language.

Standard English isn't about "proper" and it's isn't about black and white "correct" or "incorrect" patterns. It's about how we educate our children so they have that common ground upon which to learn about science, math, history, and the arts.

You are the one who started this discussion by stating "If a whole region is saying something one way it's no longer wrong, it's just different English."

Some people in the US do indeed use "different English". But it may not be the version of English that is recognized by public schools and public or private universities. And if children are not educated to use the standard language of their country, they will almost certainly be at a serious disadvantage with regard to their personal lives, and often with regard to their understanding of the critical political and socioeconomic issues of the day that may affect them quite directly. This usually has the effect of disabling rather than enabling people.

I can tell from your use of language that you are likely not an American and perhaps that is where your personal offence (spelled correctly?) is coming from. I would only ask that you not allow that to cloud your judgment as it relates to the much bigger picture.

I’m going to flounce from this topic because I feel it’s becoming a bit of an argument clinic. Not that I don’t enjoy a lovely Cleese/Palin debate. Michael Palin, that is. Not the Palin who was nearly a heartbeat away from becoming the leader of the free world.

Cheers.

JkzjBfTDH20

[Klara_Brno]

Jim Bob: "......they should name him Jim Bob." WTF????

He already has five children named after him:

Joshua JAMES, Jedidiah ROBERT, Jeremiah ROBERT, JAMES Andrew and Michael JAMES

It's like dog marking his teritory with urine

[ILoveJellybeans]

I wonder Josh will be supplied with a "handler" of some sorts. TLC and FARC have too much invested in him. If they are smart, they will have someone baby sit him. This could easily blow up in their face if they are not careful.

Probably. He certainly needs a babysitter in the workplace to make sure he gets there on time and doesnt say anything too offensive or make their organisation look stupider than it already is for being bigoted or for hiring him in the first place. He would be hopeless.

Hes the only adult Duggar who would need a babysitter in the workplace, yet hes the one who hasnt had one.

[diddykong]

Zomg with your proper grammar or die stance. We get it, dyslexic folks, dysgraphia, less education, means some one is an idiot who sucks. Give Zsu back her soap box and stfu already. Or start a new thread to whine.

[bal maiden]

I agree with the bolded and I disagree with the italisiazed. Science and history are based on facts, research, proof, evidence, and experimentation (obviously some of those apply more to one than the other). You are not entitled to make up your own version of either one because if you do you end up contradicting reality. Language, on the other hand, is completely and 100% arbitrary. There is nothing inherent about any language that makes one thing correct and one thing incorrect. The only reason Standard English is considered proper is because that is the version of English spoken by those in power. This is not about education this is about where someone lived during their formative years, that's all.

It's not the speakers speech patterns to overcome. The listener needs to overcome their prejudices.

You've never read Foucault, clearly.

[church_of_dog]

Not that I don’t enjoy a lovely Cleese/Palin debate. Michael Palin, that is. Not the Palin who was nearly a heartbeat away from becoming the leader of the free world.

Oh what I wouldn't give to have Michael Palin be the leader of the free world! :cracking-up:

[singsingsing]

You've never read Foucault, clearly.

Well, Foucault has arrived. This argument is over. Everyone go home.

[Kira]

Jim Bob: "......they should name him Jim Bob." WTF????

He already has five children named after him:

Joshua JAMES, Jedidiah ROBERT, Jeremiah ROBERT, JAMES Andrew and Michael JAMES

It's like dog marking his teritory with urine

I think it was a joke.

[Klara_Brno]

I think it was a joke.

Maybe.... but I think he was serious about that :?

[Duggarlicious]

No way will Joshie stray. He will have holy coworkers and professional handlers. He will do as encouraged and join a church for fellowship. His free time will be in the burbs with his church people and his family. I am sure all events are alcohol free in case de debil try to come 'round. Plus, this job will last a year and then he'll be fired miss his family too much and move back to Arkansas.

[Mela99]

Maybe.... but I think he was serious about that :?

I don't think it was a joke. He's made that same comment for every single GrandDuggar. :cray-cray:

[FJismyheadship]

I don't think it was a joke. He's made that same comment for every single GrandDuggar. :cray-cray:

EVEN MACKENZIE???? That's just weird.

[Kira]

I don't think it was a joke. He's made that same comment for every single GrandDuggar. :cray-cray:

If he's made the same comment each time, it's clearly a joke. Do you really think he wanted Mackynzie's name to be Jim Bob(or James Robert). My cousin make the same joke whenever a new baby joins the family.

[Swamptribe]

We have rules about proper grammar, not to bully or make those with regional dialects feel bad about themselves, but to encourage clear and concise communication. Take a trip to any bookstore or library. These institutions have many many books on the subject of proper written and even spoken English. Hell, when I worked at Barnes and Nobles, the APA Style guides were one of the most stolen books we had (poor college students one would guess).

Try writing your resume in the dialect popular in your region of the country. Go on, try. See how that works out for ya.

Michelle, and the rest of the Duggars consider themselves public figures. Michelle is also allegedly responsible for educating her children. Yet, she herself cannot communicate in clear, standard English. Instead she speaks and writes in a bizarre combination of fundispeak and local slang.

[Swamptribe]

EVEN MACKENZIE???? That's just weird.

Jane Roberta Duggar

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im suprised he hasnt done that, and had all the girls middle names as Roberta, and all the boys as Robert.

Or gave them all the middle name Jimbob-how funny would Jana Jimbob Duggar sound :D

[Klara_Brno]

Jane Roberta Duggar

or Jimena Bobbie

[Klara_Brno]

Im suprised he hasnt done that, and had all the girls middle names as Roberta, and all the boys as Robert.

Or gave them all the middle name Jimbob-how funny would Jana Jimbob Duggar sound :D

:D :lol: :lol:

And what about Joy-Jim Anna-Bob Duggar or Josie- Brooklyn Jim- Bob Duggar (JB JB Duggar) ?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Lol, dont give him ideas, or the probably never going to happen J20 will be called Jimbob Jimbob Duggar.

[Dandruff]

Michelle, and the rest of the Duggars consider themselves public figures. Michelle is also allegedly responsible for educating her children. Yet, she herself cannot communicate in clear, standard English. Instead she speaks and writes in a bizarre combination of fundispeak and local slang.

I think she can, but doesn't care to. They don't seem to want outside 'rules' being imposed on them (who allows children to rollerblade in a house with power cords across the floor and babies around?), though I'm sure nothing would make them happier than to have their personal and religious standards imposed on everyone else. Note what a fine, meticulous job she has done teaching her children how to dress appropriately - heaven forbid that the wrong inch of flesh be exposed. If clear, standard English mattered to them I have no doubt they would be modeling it beautifully.

[Conuly]

We have rules about proper grammar, not to bully or make those with regional dialects feel bad about themselves, but to encourage clear and concise communication.

People justify their "my way or die" stances with that, yes, but the argument fails on the very face of it.

Nobody is claiming that they didn't understand Michele (or any speaker!) when she used "good" where the more prestigious speech would have called for "well". Nobody is claiming her speech was unclear. They are simply saying that she doesn't speak the way they think educated speakers should speak so, ipso facto, she is stupid and uneducated. (And it's not like we lack ways to insult her education so we have to go for her speech.)

Furthermore, there are many dialects that have stigmatized aspects that actually would aid clarity and concision. Now that "thou" has fallen out of fashion, variations of "youse" and "y'all" have sprung up, but try saying those non-jocularly on a public stage! You'd be called ignorant - but why? Is making a distinction between singular and plural less clear than not making that distinction? Of course not! And it is certainly just as concise.

It is a mistake to say that standard English is valuable because it is inherently better. It is simply valuable because that is the way rich and powerful people speak, and by speaking like them you can more easily become rich and powerful. Not that this is a bad idea! I'd also advise you to dress "nicely" when going on interviews rather than wearing your casual clothes, because that's what those in charge of hiring want to see. Suits aren't inherently better than jeans, and for some applications they're certainly inferior, but you wear the clothes to suit the task. You use the speech that is most appropriate in any given situation. When speaking at home, to your family, the most appropriate speech might be your local dialect. Believe it or not, most people can handle two dialects.

[Gil]

I think she can, but doesn't care to. They don't seem to want outside 'rules' being imposed on them (who allows children to rollerblade in a house with power cords across the floor and babies around?), though I'm sure nothing would make them happier than to have their personal and religious standards imposed on everyone else. Note what a fine, meticulous job she has done teaching her children how to dress appropriately - heaven forbid that the wrong inch of flesh be exposed. If clear, standard English mattered to them I have no doubt they would be modeling it beautifully.

Michelle got married very young and didn't have much opportunity to pursue an education. It doesn't surprise me that her writing comes off so awkwardly. I doubt that she's writing that way on purpose to express some kind of distaste for standard English.

(ETA: I think I've stepped into a broader discussion/debate/argument. The point of this post isn't to condemn Michelle for her lack of education if that helps at all -- I just don't think that she's deliberately making a point by writing in her particular style.)