19 Kids and Counting 2013 - The Duggars do Part 4

[Mela99]

J'Chelle should've stayed behind and watched Mike and Mack while Smugger and Anna went to have the baby. She has to make every situation about her. Even when it's not. I bet Anna's parents would've loved to see Marcus be born. Why can't J'Chelle let them have that experience for once? They haven't seen any of her births, and as she gleefully announced, J'Chelle has seen all three.

I feel bad if Anna was one of those women who only wanted her husband there. I can't imagine having my own mother in the room, much less my husband's mother, what with the nakedness and all.

vaginas do not need an audience.

[anjulibai]

Her mother could have come out ahead of time and stayed with them until the birth. It's not like she's got an average job she has to be at everyday, and her younger kids are old enough that they don't need her around constantly.

It's also not logical for the paternal grandmother to witness the birth just because she's close by. A lot of women do not want their MILs' there. Mine offered to be there, and I said no, it wasn't necessary. It was just me and my husband.

I'm hoping Anna wants Michelle there, but frankly I honestly don't get the feeling that Anna truly does. Michelle is there because it goes along with the arc of the story TLC has crafted for them.

[mausi]

I snipped the giant quote tree, I hope you don't mind :)

Thou used to be the singular form of you and you was the plural form of you. So I see you becoming both plural and singular as a change in grammar, not just as a change in words.

What I mean by standard English is probably where we are losing each other :) I see standard English as formal writing, books, newspapers, dictionaries, official rules of grammar, and things like that. So standard English is what is expected, and taught, in school. I see correct English as basically any English dialect that is internally consistent. No one actually speaks Standard American English or Standard British English or standard whatever else English, everyone (casually) speaks their own dialect which is proper and correct, for the dialect. Newfoundland English is proper English, Boston Brahmin is proper English, African American Vernacular English is proper English, etc, (you get the point) because people who speak that dialect can understand what they say, they have internally consistent grammar, and internally consistent pronunciation. These dialects may (and do) deviate from the "standard" but that doesn't make them wrong, it makes them a dialect and dialects can include differences in grammar not just differences in pronunciation.

So, it's not about personal preferences, you're right. I think it's about dialects. Something can be grammatically incorrect according to Standard American English but grammatically correct in another dialect of English.

So Michelle and Anna (and I wager all of the Duggars and probably the vast majority of people who live around them) do not speak Standard American English and in that way they are not grammatically correct but they are within their own dialect. If people think they are uneducated or ignorant essentially because they were born in a place that has a certain accent then that is their prejudice to overcome, not Michelle or Anna's problem.

I drop all the g's of the ends of -ings and say gonna instead of going to. That doesn't make me uneducated or ignorant.

I don't quite understand the bolded, because these are two separate issues: improper grammar and pronunciation. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was judging any of the Duggars (at least not in this thread, I've seen it on other FJ threads) for their accents.

Regarding the grammatical debate/linguistic evolution/etc.: would you be ok with your high school English teacher telling the class 'they done good' when giving feedback on tests? To me, this seemed the point of the original post: that Michelle, as the Duggar 'School' Teacher, was probably not teaching the correct linguistic basics the Duggarlings will need to build a strong linguistic education.

[Mama Mia]

[quote="JenniferJuniper"

Again, Michelle and Anna Duggar can say or write or dream using any sentence structuring they like, but saying “She did real good†is NOT grammatically correct in the context in which they are using it. And yes, there will be plenty of people who are going to think they sound uneducated and/or ignorant but as that’s apparently fine with them, it’s fine with me.

[tabitha2]

Her mother could have come out ahead of time and stayed with them until the birth. It's not like she's got an average job she has to be at everyday, and her younger kids are old enough that they don't need her around constantly.

point to remember: when anna married she became a duggar family member utterly-the moment mike keller 'gave' his daughter to josh duggar she became his wife and helpmeet not mike and suzette keller's daughter ;now she must submit to her new families ways and wishes.

this is what many strict fundie families believe though I am pretty sure in practice it does not always work like this.

[Dutch_girl]

It's not a "regional thing". It's not a dialectical preference.

"Good" is an adjective, used with a noun, and "well" is an adverb, used to describe a verb.

One describes things, the other describes actions.

For example:

I performed ______ on my test. "Performed" is a verb, so you'd use "well."

I earned a ______ grade. "Grade" is a noun, so you'd use "good."

Because English is not my first language, this was actually very helpfull to understand the discussion :lol:

[Flossie]

The "Josh & Anna move to the Big City" plotline is strangely parallel to and yet diametrically opposed to Razing Ruth's current situation. But while Ruth is alone with no family backup, Josh is moving with his wife and kids, to a situation where he'll have a lot of support from his new bosses, fans, and of course TLC. Ruth's efforts are sincere, Josh is playing a part. Ruth is reaching out through the internet, but still trying to maintain her privacy. Josh uses all forms of social media to garner as much attention as possible, and not even his wife giving birth is given respectful privacy. Ruth is trying to plan ahead, gather advice and information and has worked to educate herself as much as possible. Josh, not so much. He's following someone else's script and being coddled and cosseted at every turn. Ruth is working herself to the bone, Josh just shows up and grins.

I hope that Ruth makes it, and gets a good life and the respect she deserves. I hope that Josh's Fundie Fantasy crashes and burns. When Ruth writes her honest and well-written book I hope that Jush is the first in line to get his copy signed so he can read up on how to break free of his ignorant and stifling upbringing and become a contributing member of society who can look in the mirror with pride in the journey and a true understanding of the gift of hard work and self-respect.

And someone tell Anna that even Gothard won't be bothered if she buys a decent pair of shoes.

[diddykong]

Grammar? Really? Of everything to criticize, you're going with Michelle's grammar?

[Boogalou]

I don't quite understand the bolded, because these are two separate issues: improper grammar and pronunciation. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was judging any of the Duggars (at least not in this thread, I've seen it on other FJ threads) for their accents.

Regarding the grammatical debate/linguistic evolution/etc.: would you be ok with your high school English teacher telling the class 'they done good' when giving feedback on tests? To me, this seemed the point of the original post: that Michelle, as the Duggar 'School' Teacher, was probably not teaching the correct linguistic basics the Duggarlings will need to build a strong linguistic education.

Grammar is a part of accents and dialects, it's not just about pronunciation.

And yes, I would be ok with a high school English teacher speaking like that. People pick up their speaking habits from their peers anyway, not their teachers, so at the end of the day even if a teacher speaks Standard American English it's not going to have that much of an effect on people's casual speaking habits. Also, I don't think we can judge how Michelle is teaching based on casual verbal interviews.

Here is way harping on their grammar so much annoys me. They speak the way they do essentially because of the area they live in. When someone says "that grammar is wrong, they are uneducated and ignorant" you are essentially someone is wrong because they deviate from a very specific type of English because of the place they were raised in.

[FeministShrew]

I feel bad if Anna was one of those women who only wanted her husband there. I can't imagine having my own mother in the room, much less my husband's mother, what with the nakedness and all.

vaginas do not need an audience.

What nakedness? :lol:

Seriously, by the time my oldest was born I was buck naked in that hospital bed, and I did not care. Modesty was the least of my concerns! I can't imagine laboring & giving birth in a beaded top & long skirt, especially dripping wet in a bathtub.

[Patsy]

It seems to me that a lot of the grammar judgments on the Duggars that I see have an undercurrent of "they must be stupid". FYI, folks, the fact that YOU speak the "proper grammar" does not make you smarter if it's the only one you speak, and the poor/regional people who learn to speak "properly" in academic/professional settings are, if anything, SMARTER to learn two dialects. You grow up learning the rich/common/political majority (as in most represented, not as in highest number) dialect, and then have an easy time being able to speak it anywhere. To go on to judge people who can't speak it as being unintelligent is supremely naive - the entire reason your dialect is the "proper" one is because YOU, the rich/represented person, are the one speaking it, so everyone therefore assumes, on seeing the "good" people speak it, that it must be the "good" dialect.

(That's not directed at any particular person. I'm just sort of muttering into the ether.)

[lizziesmom]

On the subject of grammar, I am the child of an English teacher, so yes, it bothers me when people don't speak correctly. However, I don't think anyone who points this out is attacking anyone personally so I'm not sure why so many of the responses are so defensive. It bugs the heck out of me when people misuse its and it's but I've stopped pointing it out because I usually am slammed for being part of the grammar police. Ignorance is bliss apparently.

[Coconut Flan]

About the Duggars, it bothers me because Michelle has set herself up as head teacher, but she clearly doesn't have the knowledge and skills to teach her children properly. Also, while some of the people in that area misuse many words, it's far from all and I'm not sure that most of the people in the area consider the Duggar grammar standard.

[Palimpsest]

Language changes and adapts, and accepted regionalisms certainly exist. However, if you move out of your own region and use "incorrect" grammar in your new region, then you will be judged as uneducated.

Freshman at Ivy League U. to sophomore: "Hey, where's the library at?"

Sophomore patronizingly: "Dude, in order to fit in at Ivy League U you really need to learn to stop ending your sentences with a preposition."

Freshman: "Sure! Where's the library at, ASSHOLE?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

When Smuggar gets to Washington he might want to take some remedial classes in standard grammar just to improve his writing. The regionalisms and J'chelle's SOTDT teaching will act against him to a certain extent. On the other hand, a lot of politicians retain those regionalisms in their speech because it appeals to their constituency.

Split infinitives still sound like nails on a chalk board to me, but language changes. I've sadly accepted the demise of that specific grammatical rule. :(

[patsymae]

"you really need to learn to stop ending your sentences with a preposition."

(Supposedly) said Winston Churchill: "That is the sort of sophistry up with which I will not put."

[FeministShrew]

My sixth grade English teacher was a stickler for grammar. She said, "Even if you are the poorest of the poor, education through high school is free. Learn & use proper grammar, and people will respect you more than if you use slang, say "ain't" & butcher the English language." She told me about a lady she knew who was beautiful, married into a wealthy local family, but was made fun of by her social circle because she never bothered to learn proper grammar. She had the money, house, clothes, hair, makeup & car, but when she opened her mouth her upbringing was obvious.

That made a huge impression on me, but it pissed my mom off. She said people should not be judged by their speech or lack of education.

I tend to speak differently around my mom, who will call me out for "trying to be proper," than my coworkers & friends.

[singsingsing]

My sixth grade English teacher was a stickler for grammar. She said, "Even if you are the poorest of the poor, education through high school is free. Learn & use proper grammar, and people will respect you more than if you use slang, say "ain't" & butcher the English language." She told me about a lady she knew who was beautiful, married into a wealthy local family, but was made fun of by her social circle because she never bothered to learn proper grammar. She had the money, house, clothes, hair, makeup & car, but when she opened her mouth her upbringing was obvious.

That made a huge impression on me, but it pissed my mom off. She said people should not be judged by their speech or lack of education.

I tend to speak differently around my mom, who will call me out for "trying to be proper," than my coworkers & friends.

The people in her social circle were assholes. Pretty telling that this is how she was judged: she LOOKED rich, but she SOUNDED poor. Wow. How about, was she a good person? Was she honest, was she loyal? Was she kind to others? Would she help you out in a crisis? Well, who cares about all that crap? She drove a nice car but she said 'ain't'!!

[JenniferJuniper]

My sixth grade English teacher was a stickler for grammar. She said, "Even if you are the poorest of the poor, education through high school is free. Learn & use proper grammar, and people will respect you more than if you use slang, say "ain't" & butcher the English language." She told me about a lady she knew who was beautiful, married into a wealthy local family, but was made fun of by her social circle because she never bothered to learn proper grammar. She had the money, house, clothes, hair, makeup & car, but when she opened her mouth her upbringing was obvious.

That made a huge impression on me, but it pissed my mom off. She said people should not be judged by their speech or lack of education.

I tend to speak differently around my mom, who will call me out for "trying to be proper," than my coworkers & friends.

It's too bad that your mom doesn't understand why it's so important to you.

I'm shocked over the disdain so many in the United States today have for educated people. And I'm not talking about Harvard educated people; that's straw man nonsense. I'm talking about people who've personally made an effort to learn to communicate well or to grasp basic science principals or to understand the fundamentals of their own country's history.

We're clearly slipping as a culture when millions upon millions of people look up to an intellectually vapid creature like Sarah Palin (Jesus, was she really almost a heartbeat away from being the leader of the free world, or was that all just a nightmare?) or who vote for a congressman because he believes in the Bible over science instead of his reality-based opponent who is deemed "too smart for his own good".

We talk about all of the dimwits and whack jobs in Congress out here all the time. But how and why did they land in office in the first place?

Language matters. Science matters. History matters. And if we continue to celebrate the dumbing down of America, we're going to end up in even worse trouble than we are now.

[singsingsing]

There's a huge difference between someone who can't handle basic formal communication and someone who uses a dialect, colloquialisms, or slang in more informal settings. I'm not saying that the first isn't a major problem - it is. But it's important to understand the difference between the two, and not disparage people because they don't speak the way you think they're supposed to. Language is not a static thing. That's why we're not all speaking 'proper' 16th century English.

[Palimpsest]

The people in her social circle were assholes. Pretty telling that this is how she was judged: she LOOKED rich, but she SOUNDED poor. Wow. How about, was she a good person? Was she honest, was she loyal? Was she kind to others? Would she help you out in a crisis? Well, who cares about all that crap? She drove a nice car but she said 'ain't'!!

To the first: Your Mom calls you out for trying to sound "proper?" Its not unusual. Some envy that you have had more opportunities to be upwardly mobile? You are making her feel self-conscious about the way she speaks, perhaps? Just laugh it off and talk the way you want. :)

Yup, to the second. But there are many people in this world who are assholes. If you speak differently from the *in crowd* you will be judged and find it hard to break in to the crowd. Like it or not, because we don't live in Utopia.

I get judged for my accent and phraseology all the time! Even after 30+ years in the US I do not sound American. In my case, people gush over my "beautiful" British accent :roll: and probably think I'm more intelligent/educated/sophisticated than I am really. Or more repressed/reserved/stiff-upper-lipped. I've also been called hoity-toity and lah-di-dah to my face by people who don't even know me! :lol: If I had a less socially acceptable non-standard US accent, it would be held against me much more. No?

[Dandruff]

JenniferJuniper wrote:

Language matters. Science matters. History matters. And if we continue to celebrate the dumbing down of America, we're going to end up in even worse trouble than we are now.

Bravo! :clap:

[Boogalou]

Language matters. Science matters. History matters. And if we continue to celebrate the dumbing down of America, we're going to end up in even worse trouble than we are now.

I agree with the bolded and I disagree with the italisiazed. Science and history are based on facts, research, proof, evidence, and experimentation (obviously some of those apply more to one than the other). You are not entitled to make up your own version of either one because if you do you end up contradicting reality. Language, on the other hand, is completely and 100% arbitrary. There is nothing inherent about any language that makes one thing correct and one thing incorrect. The only reason Standard English is considered proper is because that is the version of English spoken by those in power. This is not about education this is about where someone lived during their formative years, that's all.

It's not the speakers speech patterns to overcome. The listener needs to overcome their prejudices.

[ljohnson2006]

I wonder if anyone takes what J'Chelle puts in her BS TLC blogs about "Parenting" seriously. I'd take advice about parenting from one of the J'Slaves quicker than I would J'Chelle. Her "Parentables" blogs give a false sense to the readers. She hasn't parented a child in a long time. They should call her blog "BSable". That's what it is. All BS!

[Conuly]

I agree with the bolded and I disagree with the italisiazed. Science and history are based on facts, research, proof, evidence, and experimentation (obviously some of those apply more to one than the other). You are not entitled to make up your own version of either one because if you do you end up contradicting reality. Language, on the other hand, is completely and 100% arbitrary. There is nothing inherent about any language that makes one thing correct and one thing incorrect. The only reason Standard English is considered proper is because that is the version of English spoken by those in power. This is not about education this is about where someone lived during their formative years, that's all.

It's not the speakers speech patterns to overcome. The listener needs to overcome their prejudices.

Furthermore, we have science to study how language works, including how it changes. Guess what? Just like in the evolution of life, in the evolution of language there is no bad, wrong "micro evolution" that is somehow distinct from language "macro evolution".

And nowhere in the English speaking world is there an academy or other organization devoted to telling us which constructions are standard, or dialectical, or wrong. When you say "well is used this way, good is used that way", you're depending on mass opinion to tell you if you're right, because there is no arbiter or judge. When large portions of the population do not make the same distinction you do, it's a little presumptuous to act as though your speech is ever so much cultured and educated than theirs simply because only stupid people speak differently from you. You aren't the one who gets to decide if a different usage is dialectical or simply wrong wrong wrong.

Science and history do matter. Acting as though somehow they stop mattering when we talk about language (and yes, nattering on that there is some distinction between dialectical variation and simply "wrong" but quite widespread usage IS ignoring both science and history) is hypocritical.

[lilwriter85]

I wonder if anyone takes what J'Chelle puts in her BS TLC blogs about "Parenting" seriously. I'd take advice about parenting from one of the J'Slaves quicker than I would J'Chelle. Her "Parentables" blogs give a false sense to the readers. She hasn't parented a child in a long time. They should call her blog "BSable". That's what it is. All BS!

I think the leghumpers take Michelle's "parenting" seriously. I do remember some guy left a comment bashing Michelle last year after she claimed that some of the Duggar kids had dyslexia. The leghumpers usually don't see through the BS.