Cleveland Captives & Ariel Castro Suicide - Merge

[Jezebel]

I'm confused - this article says she was gang-raped while in junior high school, about a year before she was kidnapped. But she was 18 or 20 when she was abducted, no? And other articles mention her son having been 3 or 4 when she lost custody.

I was trying to figure that one out, too. The only way it makes sense is if they got the story wrong--rather than being in junior high school when the rape occurred, she was probably in her junior year of high school. If she had a 3yo child at age 20, giving birth at 17 would fit that scenario.

I'm glad to hear that the DeJesus family seems to have brought her into their fold. God knows she needs a strong support system, and it doesn't sound like her bio family is going to be that for her. Although her twin brother seems like he may be - he obviously has issues with mom, too, getting kicked out at 14, and he seems to have respected Michelle's wishes by backing off a little while she was in the hospital.

Her mother getting a lawyer and possibly trying to force her way back into Michelle's life--perhaps getting declared her legal guardian--is just crazy. But it's not surprising. There's bound to be an outpouring of donations from people who want to help these women move forward in their lives, plus they will no doubt be offered lots of money for exclusive interviews and book deals. Michelle's mother didn't give a damn about her daughter at the time she went missing, and I'd bet the only reason she's so interested now is because someone pointed out how much money could be at stake. She's hardly someone I'd trust to act in Michelle's best interests.

So yeah, I hope the DeJesus and Berry families find it in their hearts to take her in as one of their own.

[FiddleDD]

What about that one photo of her in the black shirt? Everywhere I've seen it, it's been credited to the Knight family.

(Not to say that her family isn't awful for a lot of things and she has every right to refuse to see them, but that photo had to come from someone that knew her.)

Excuse me while I accidentally hit "like" instead of "quote"... what I meant was that it didn't come from her mother (I was in a rush when I posted). Her mother was quoted as saying she didn't have any pictures of Michelle "anymore". I don't know where the picture of her on the black shirt came from, but apparently it was a relative who cared more about her than her mother.

[lilith]

I see your point about intent, and I understand wanting to throw every crime possible at this sick bastard, but I still balk at applying the word murder to a fetus. Murder implies that the being that was killed had a right to the life that was taken away from it. A fetus has no legal rights, including the right to (potential) life. A woman, on the other hand, very much has a right to keep a pregnancy if she chooses and if someone assaults her in a way that causes her to miscarry, that is a crime. Against the woman. It's a slippery slope that I don't want to slide down.

It's entirely possible that Michelle was relieved that her pregnancies ended (I'm not condoning the method or the fact that the decision was made by her rapist, not by her). I can easily understand her not wanting to bear her rapist's child in such horrific circumstances.

I totally agree that he should be charged with separate counts of assault causing actual bodily harm (or whatever the equivalent charge is in that jurisdiction) for each if the miscarriages, but not murder. The crime was committed against Michelle, and that needs to be made very very clear. Charging him with the murder of the fetus takes her out of the picture, and she was very much the victim.

[Diana]

It's entirely possible that Michelle was relieved that her pregnancies ended (I'm not condoning the method or the fact that the decision was made by her rapist, not by her). I can easily understand her not wanting to bear her rapist's child in such horrific circumstances.

I totally agree that he should be charged with separate counts of assault causing actual bodily harm (or whatever the equivalent charge is in that jurisdiction) for each if the miscarriages, but not murder. The crime was committed against Michelle, and that needs to be made very very clear. Charging him with the murder of the fetus takes her out of the picture, and she was very much the victim.

i dont know how is the law there, but i think he should be charged for the crime of forced abortion(its not a murder because the victim is not a human, but a fetus), and the abortion was without the consent of the mother so its a crime.

[lilith]

i dont know how is the law there, but i think he should be charged for the crime of forced abortion(its not a murder because the victim is not a human, but a fetus), as the abortion was without the consent of the mother so is a crime.

That still, in my opinion, takes the focus off the actual victim of the crime, Michelle. She has been forgotten and victimised enough, I think it's really really important that he is charged with hurting HER, not a fetus.

[singsingsing]

I don't think it would be unreasonable to charge him for forced abortion/miscarriage AND assault. Both are crimes against the woman.

[lilith]

Maybe ask his victims what they want. They may, understandably, simply want him charged with every crime in the book, but it should be up to Michelle how her miscarriages are treated - its a disgrace we even know about them if she hasn't given her explicit consent to that information being released.

[DaffyDill]

stopsylvia.com/articles/montel_amandaberry.shtml

This is a link to a transcript of, and discussion about, supposed psychic Sylvia Brownes "interview" or "reading" with an understandably desperate Louwanna Miller (Amanda Berry's mother).

Sylvia Browne must be excessively cruel and heartless to pull this stunt on a fragile, devastated parent :(

[Lainey]

Okay, somebody help me out here...I've been watching this video: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/news_a ... pears-2004

Okay, well, there are two videos, but I'm talking about the video of Gina DeJesus. At the 1:50 mark, they interview a guy...is that Ariel Castro? They show him again later (I forget what mark...2:30? Something like that).

[laura oz]

I DVR'd 20/20 Friday night and just got around to watching it. The horror of what those women lived through is just mind-boggling to me. I can't imagine what they lived through, and I am so thrilled they are free from him physically. I hope some kind shrink will provide them with some therapy gratis to enable them to free themselves mentally and work through all the trauma they went through. The mother who has retained a lawyer is making my bullshit meter go into the red zone. From what I've read, I hope that poor girl can avoid her mom's bs and find happiness with the other family. Just sickens me that the mother would want to cash in on the sensational rescue of her daughter when she didn't seem to really look for all that hard for her. :disgust: These women and the little girl are in this old heathens prayers.

[Nothing2CHere]

So of course Castro is going to plead "not guilty": http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cas ... 52315.html

From the article:

"The initial portrayal by the media has been one of a 'monster' and that's not the impression that I got when I talked to him for three hours," Craig Weintraub, one of Castro's lawyers, told Cleveland's WKYC-TV late Tuesday.

Well, of course not! That's why he was able to get away with this for TEN YEARS, all the neighbors thought he was just a regular, fine fellow. They talked about how horrified they were that they never suspected a thing. Charles Ramsey said in an interview, "Either I'm that stupid, or he's that good."

And then this one:

"He doesn't have a television, doesn't have radio, doesn't have magazines, no access to newspapers," Jaye Schlachet, another Castro lawyer, said. "He's completely isolated from society."

:roll: Um, you think maybe that was to keep Michelle, Amanda and Gina in the dark? Castro still got out all the time. No access to newspapers, please - there are Plain Dealer newspaper vending machines at most major bus stops, and it's sold even in McDonalds. The ones who were completely isolated from society were the three women, NOT Castro.

No surprise about the possible change of venue request, though. I had called that just a few days after this story broke.

[Lainey]

So of course Castro is going to plead "not guilty": http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cas ... 52315.html

And then this one:

:roll: Um, you think maybe that was to keep Michelle, Amanda and Gina in the dark? Castro still got out all the time. No access to newspapers, please - there are Plain Dealer newspaper vending machines at most major bus stops, and it's sold even in McDonalds. The ones who were completely isolated from society were the three women, NOT Castro.

No surprise about the possible change of venue request, though. I had called that just a few days after this story broke.

I think the lawyer meant that Castro doesn't have any if those things since he's been in jail. In which case, poor muffin! :roll: Let's chain him up in the dark for ten years, and throw in some beatings and such. Then he can whine about being isolated from society!

[RosyDaisy]

i dont know how is the law there, but i think he should be charged for the crime of forced abortion(its not a murder because the victim is not a human, but a fetus), and the abortion was without the consent of the mother so its a crime.

I have to agree here. These was a forced abortions by violence. We don't know if she wanted her babies or not. Not every woman who becomes pregnant by rape chooses to have an abortion. That should have been Michelle's decision to make, and that right was taken away from her.

[Lillybee]

Some more details on their torture. It is triggering.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/1 ... 76651.html

[FiddleDD]

There is a reason why you have only seen a picture of Amanda (Berry)," said one of the sources, referring to the condition of DeJesus and Knight.

I read that article earlier and it gave me chills. Those poor women. I can't even imagine.

[LadyBlue]

Am I the only one getting increasingly sick of the media's constant reference to them as "girls"? Amanda and Gina were girls when they were taken, Michelle was not. And none of them are now.

[Lillybee]

Castro's lawyers are trying to make the public feel sorry for the poor guy. He has pled not guilty. He says that he loves his daughter but hasn't said anything about her custody. If he has the right to sue for custody or see the child, it would be so wrong.

[Flossie]

He says that he loves his daughter but hasn't said anything about her custody. If he has the right to sue for custody or see the child, it would be so wrong.

I imagine that his lawyer has told him not to mention anything like that right now. Considering all the crimes he is being charged with, actually voicing desires to take the child of his rape victim away to be raised by him would be the worst thing he could do. Pursuing custody would be useless as long as he's locked up, because he doesn't have the means to support a child at this time. I can't think that any of his family members would consider taking the child in even temporarily, there would be too much public outcry and they don't even know the girl.

The subject of visitation is going to be different. I don't know if he would be able to force the child to visit him while he's in prison, or to visit him if he ever got out of jail. I'm sure the mother wouldn't want her daughter to have any more contact with him no that they've finally escaped. The issue of visitation should not be what A. Castro wants, unless he is somehow acquitted of the charges. The wishes of the mother should be considered but most of all, visitation should be decided on what is best for the little girl. The sad thing is, there was at least one news report that said immediately after their rescue, when emotions were running high and the police were trying to usher the women into police cars to get them out of there, the little girl was heard calling out for her daddy. I hope that this little girl is given the best counseling and is young enough to make a good transition to a normal life.

[lilith]

Sadly, of he didn't commit any crimes directly against the child, I can seeing him retaining visitation rights, even from prison. Other abusive men have, so there is certainly precedent.

[Flossie]

Sadly, of he didn't commit any crimes directly against the child, I can seeing him retaining visitation rights, even from prison. Other abusive men have, so there is certainly precedent.

I suppose it depends on what the law is in Ohio. However, a case could be made for neglect, I think. If the mother wanted prenatal care or to give birth in a hospital, I'm sure that's medical neglect against the mother. If the mother wanted the newborn baby to be seen by a physician after birth and he denied it, that should constitute medical neglect of the child. If the mother wanted the child to get vaccinations and A. Castro denied it, that should be another example of medical neglect. If the child was ill at any time and the mother wanted her to be seen by a doctor, there's another case. I'm not sure if him preventing the child from attending school could be considered neglect. If the child is underweight, there might be a case for neglect there. If the mother and child were denied heat when it was cold, or forced to stay in an overheated room and not allowed to open windows when it was hot, that might be neglect.

This man is said to have a history of violence, so there may be a possibility that he's physically abused the girl before.

I'm not sure if he would be sexually abusing her at her age because I don't know at what point he considers a female to be sexually stimulating to him, but I am glad that they got out now. I'm not sure that she would be safe from him when she became a teen.

[dianapavelovna]

Wasn't he charged with kidnapping his daughter, as well as the three women? I would think that would make finagling any kind of visitation rights difficult (assuming he's convicted).

[happy atheist]

Why are there only 3 rape charges? Shouldn't there be hundreds? It's not like it was only rape the first time.

[Flossie]

Why are there only 3 rape charges? Shouldn't there be hundreds? It's not like it was only rape the first time.

I know what you mean. It's like the law has decided that each rape after the first doesn't count. Really, it's like telling a rapist "Don't stop at one, keep going as long as you can, you'll only get charged for the first."

[bionicmlle]

I know what you mean. It's like the law has decided that each rape after the first doesn't count. Really, it's like telling a rapist "Don't stop at one, keep going as long as you can, you'll only get charged for the first."

Aren't those the charges that they *started* with in order to get him arrested, arraigned and locked up? The further investigation will likely add more charges over time before the case goes to trial. That's my understanding but I could be completely off base.

[martian]

I have a suspicion that with all the "loves his daughter" talk from the attorneys, that they're going to try to get at least the one kidnapping charge thrown out because he is the little girl's father. Maybe they can argue "What kidnapping? His daughter lived in his home." I'm hopeful that the not guilty plea is just a bargaining chip to get the death penalty off of the table, but with an ego as epic as Castro's must be, who knows.

I'm pretty boggled that the lawyers can argue with a straight face that the treatment of Ariel Castro in the media isn't "equitable". Truly WTF. I guess that's why they earn the big bucks. Souls shouldn't go cheap.