Cleveland Captives & Ariel Castro Suicide - Merge

[icedtea]

I'd really like to know who the first woman was, if that's accurate. The one that it was reported that Michelle Knight saw when she was first there. Ans whose name is scrawled on the basement wall with "R.I.P?" That's worrisome.

Christina Adkins, maybe?

[Lainey]

Christina Adkins, maybe?

Yeah, maybe. That was the other name I could come up with looking online. She was missing since 1995, right?

[EmmieJ]

In some report or another, I recall reading that Feckley was the boyfriend of Michelle's mother at the time these incidents occurred (when Feckley broke Michelle's son's arm, etc.). Now I can't find whether that is accurate or not.

This poor young woman. She so desperately needs at least one truly decent human being on her side, to offer her shelter, a place to recover at her own pace, a safe and secure environment. She won't find that with her mother or her grandmother. It sounds like her captor treated her especially brutally -- it's times like these that I actually hope there is a hell, so that Castro will end up there for an eternity.

[Lainey]

I thought it was the mother's boyfriend, too, but I can't find any clarification, either. The one article I found could go either way, just the way it's written.

What's up with her grandmother? I've heard some stuff about her mother, and she seems delusional to me (she reminds me of my mom, and if I went through what Michelle went through, I know that my mom would make it all about her), but I haven't really heard anything about the grandmother.

[gustava]

Well, you can hope, but Ariel Castro seems to be a sociopath or a psychopath (don't know what the difference is), and I can't see him pleading guilty to spare these women from having to testify. He also seems to be a NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). Look that up online and you'll see that while Narcissistics feel that they're superior to others, when they can't prove their perceived superiority, they immediately go into victim mode. Read on, and you'll see what I mean.

It makes a twisted sort of sense, that while the women were held captive he reportedly bought them cakes to 'celebrate' the date of their kidnapping. If the kidnapping and rapes weren't enough to drive the point home, the cakes were there to accentuate the point that he was the master and they were under his complete control. But there are also numerous reports that a suicide note was found in his home that was written several years ago. In the note he said that he was a sex addict and that he needed help, but at the same time he also claimed that the women themselves were at fault for accepting rides from him, thereby allowing him to kidnap them. I wonder what happened at that time that he was already setting up a defense whereby he was blaming the victims for what he did to them. Something happened to make him think that the authorities might be about to discover what he'd done, and he was preparing his defense. I hope that the threat of the death penalty makes him cooperative, as I think that learning as much as possible about his motivations could only help law enforcement when dealing with people like him in the future.

It is my understanding that the primary reason why people in these cases (including Jodie Arias and the Aurora shooter) don't plead guilty is because of the death penalty. The prosecutor who charges the death penalty wants to get it, so won't plead out the case. The defendant doesn't want the death penalty (OK, Jodie may), so forces a trial.

Regardless of what one thinks about the death penalty, it is responsible for many of these long and expensive trials.

[salex]

It is my understanding that the primary reason why people in these cases (including Jodie Arias and the Aurora shooter) don't plead guilty is because of the death penalty. The prosecutor who charges the death penalty wants to get it, so won't plead out the case. The defendant doesn't want the death penalty (OK, Jodie may), so forces a trial.

Regardless of what one thinks about the death penalty, it is responsible for many of these long and expensive trials

In my state (KS) they have the death penalty, and 10 people on death row, but it has not been used since it was reinstated in 1994. IF a person will confess and give details about the crime, I believe they will usually take the death penalty off the table, but the person automatically gets a Hard 40 (ie, 40 years minimum before parole is even an option) The old life in prison penalty had parole options after 15 years I think.

I am not 100 percent sure of this.

[Diana]

I wonder what happened with michelle child, she disappeared before a hearing about the custody of the boy, and looks like anybody in her family did anything, so he ended up in foster care or being adopted? if so, i hope they let her see her son if she wants.

An also:

Records show David Feckley was charged and convicted in the early 2000s of child endangerment, for breaking the arm of Knight's infant son. He served eight years in prison. But a rape charge was dropped when the alleged victim, Knight, couldn't be found.

can he be condemned now for that crime or is too late? with all of that is understandable that she doesnt want to see her mother.

[Rowan]

Is it wrong that I want them to throw everything at him that they can but at the same time I'm disgusted that "murder of unborn fetuses" is something he can be charged with in Ohio?

I wonder now if the 4th kidnapping charge (the child) will be dropped since he is the father. Or can you apply it by proxy since he kidnapped her mom?

Just random thoughts tonight I guess.

[Lainey]

I wonder what he told the daughter, Jocelyn? Apparently he took her outside fairly often, and to his mother's, whom she called "Grandma." Didn't his mother ever ask where the mother was? Didn't Jocelyn ever ask why her mother could never go outside, or to visit her grandma with them? Why did he beat the women until they lost all the other babies, but threatened their lives if Jocelyn died when she was delivered? And how could the neighbours not have heard her screaming during labour? Still so many questions.

Here's an interesting article: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ssing.html

[tuckerphez]

On Michelle Knight: it looks like she might have someone on her side. Her brother - the one who got kicked out when he was 14 - saw her in the hospital and gave her a hug.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1339798

[starfish]

Michelle's mom seems like the type who is contemplating how she can make a buck off the situation instead of thinking of

how she can help her daughter. I read that Michelle was raped while she was in school. She was dragged into a bathroom at school and raped by two other students. Poor Michelle. She will need some serious long-term help.

[Lillybee]

I hope that Michelle is given the opportunity to at least visit with her son but I am very afraid that her rights as a parent have probably been terminated and that the boy has been adopted.

[Lainey]

Yeah, there's definitely something off about Michelle's family. Here's another article: http://news.yahoo.com/woman-held-captiv ... 23744.html

This line, in particular, really rubs me the wrong way:

The Knight family was headed to the DeJesus home for a vigil in honor of the women.

"We figured we should go up to the DeJesus's and introduce ourselves and get to know them and become part of their family," Deborah Knight said.

So Michelle doesn't want anything to do with them, but they're going to disrespect her wishes and insinuate themselves into her fellow survivors' lives (and probably hers by extension), anyway. No wonder she doesn't want to see them! I also like how she just assumes they're going to "become part of [the DeJesus] family," too. Kinda presumptuous there, Grandma, no?

[Nothing2CHere]

I'd really like to know who the first woman was, if that's accurate. The one that it was reported that Michelle Knight saw when she was first there. Ans whose name is scrawled on the basement wall with "R.I.P?" That's worrisome.

Lainey, do you still have the link to where you read about these two things? I haven't heard either of these things reported in the local news. I know they had cadaver dogs at the property, and the only remains reportedly found were of a dog.

Last night on the news there were reports that Michelle's mother has obtained an attorney. The attorney talked to reporters about how Michelle's mother should have rights to see her daughter and that after what Michelle's been through she's not in a clear enough state of mind to determine what's best for her - made it sound to me like they're going to try to get Michelle declared incompetent and her mother made her legal guardian (or whatever it's called for an adult), a la Britney Spears. (To clarify, the part after the dash is just my speculation extrapolated from the lawyer's statement.)

[rollmeover]

Is it wrong that I want them to throw everything at him that they can but at the same time I'm disgusted that "murder of unborn fetuses" is something he can be charged with in Ohio?

I wonder now if the 4th kidnapping charge (the child) will be dropped since he is the father. Or can you apply it by proxy since he kidnapped her mom?

Just random thoughts tonight I guess.

Why? I'm not being confrontational, but I just don't get the problem. If a mother has a legal right to terminate her pregnancy by making that choice, shouldn't she also have the right to make a choice to protect the baby and to get justice if a third party ends the pregnancy against her will?

[Lainey]

Lainey, do you still have the link to where you read about these two things? I haven't heard either of these things reported in the local news. I know they had cadaver dogs at the property, and the only remains reportedly found were of a dog.

Last night on the news there were reports that Michelle's mother has obtained an attorney. The attorney talked to reporters about how Michelle's mother should have rights to see her daughter and that after what Michelle's been through she's not in a clear enough state of mind to determine what's best for her - made it sound to me like they're going to try to get Michelle declared incompetent and her mother made her legal guardian (or whatever it's called for an adult), a la Britney Spears. (To clarify, the part after the dash is just my speculation extrapolated from the lawyer's statement.)

I've read about the other woman Michelle mentioned in a few places, but I couldn't find anything recent. But this article mentions it near the end: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/07 ... egnancies/

As for Michelle's family, ugh. This doesn't surprise me at all. They still want to have control over her. Which is why I'm happy to read this (although it explains why her family was headed over to the DeJesus's house): http://www.christianpost.com/news/kidna ... deo-95692/

[Rowan]

Why? I'm not being confrontational, but I just don't get the problem. If a mother has a legal right to terminate her pregnancy by making that choice, shouldn't she also have the right to make a choice to protect the baby and to get justice if a third party ends the pregnancy against her will?

Because that puts the life of a fetus on the same legal standing as the life of a person. It's not a big step from "you killed a baby this woman wanted" to "you killed a baby" and banning all abortion. Plenty of lawmakers have shown that they don't care what the woman wants. (abortion, rape - legislation and the highly-publicized statements)

[ShesCrafty]

Why? I'm not being confrontational, but I just don't get the problem. If a mother has a legal right to terminate her pregnancy by making that choice, shouldn't she also have the right to make a choice to protect the baby and to get justice if a third party ends the pregnancy against her will?

A woman should definitely be able to bring charges if her pregnancy is ended against her will, but the crime is against the woman, not the fetus. A fetus doesn't (or shouldnt, IMHO) have legal rights.

[dianapavelovna]

On Michelle Knight: it looks like she might have someone on her side. Her brother - the one who got kicked out when he was 14 - saw her in the hospital and gave her a hug.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1339798

I'm confused - this article says she was gang-raped while in junior high school, about a year before she was kidnapped. But she was 18 or 20 when she was abducted, no? And other articles mention her son having been 3 or 4 when she lost custody.

I've also assumed that her parental rights were terminated, but most articles just say she "lost custody" or a "custody battle," which isn't definitive. If her rights were terminated after her abduction, she may be able to appeal the termination. I'm not familiar with family law in Ohio, however, and I'm certainly no lawyer.

I'm glad to hear that the DeJesus family seems to have brought her into their fold. God knows she needs a strong support system, and it doesn't sound like her bio family is going to be that for her. Although her twin brother seems like he may be - he obviously has issues with mom, too, getting kicked out at 14, and he seems to have respected Michelle's wishes by backing off a little while she was in the hospital.

Also WTF at her family not having any other photos of her. Not that the public needs a lot of photos, but that just screams bad news to me. Unless you went through a house fire or something, why do you not have more than two photos of your missing daughter?

[singsingsing]

I feel like murder implies malicious intent. So you can murder a fetus if the mother desired to carry the pregnancy to term, because that's a malicious action, but a woman who aborts a fetus is (in the vast majority of cases, I guess there might be psychopaths out there who do it for fun) not doing it with malicious intent, so it's not murder. It's kind of like, if a family decides to take a loved one off life support, it's not murder... but if someone else comes along and yanks the cord out of the wall without the family's consent, it is murder.

[ShesCrafty]

I feel like murder implies malicious intent. So you can murder a fetus if the mother desired to carry the pregnancy to term, because that's a malicious action, but a woman who aborts a fetus is (in the vast majority of cases, I guess there might be psychopaths out there who do it for fun) not doing it with malicious intent, so it's not murder. It's kind of like, if a family decides to take a loved one off life support, it's not murder... but if someone else comes along and yanks the cord out of the wall without the family's consent, it is murder.

I see your point about intent, and I understand wanting to throw every crime possible at this sick bastard, but I still balk at applying the word murder to a fetus. Murder implies that the being that was killed had a right to the life that was taken away from it. A fetus has no legal rights, including the right to (potential) life. A woman, on the other hand, very much has a right to keep a pregnancy if she chooses and if someone assaults her in a way that causes her to miscarry, that is a crime. Against the woman. It's a slippery slope that I don't want to slide down.

[FiddleDD]

I'm confused - this article says she was gang-raped while in junior high school, about a year before she was kidnapped. But she was 18 or 20 when she was abducted, no? And other articles mention her son having been 3 or 4 when she lost custody.

I've also assumed that her parental rights were terminated, but most articles just say she "lost custody" or a "custody battle," which isn't definitive. If her rights were terminated after her abduction, she may be able to appeal the termination. I'm not familiar with family law in Ohio, however, and I'm certainly no lawyer.

I'm glad to hear that the DeJesus family seems to have brought her into their fold. God knows she needs a strong support system, and it doesn't sound like her bio family is going to be that for her. Although her twin brother seems like he may be - he obviously has issues with mom, too, getting kicked out at 14, and he seems to have respected Michelle's wishes by backing off a little while she was in the hospital.

Also WTF at her family not having any other photos of her. Not that the public needs a lot of photos, but that just screams bad news to me. Unless you went through a house fire or something, why do you not have more than two photos of your missing daughter?

Those weren't even the family's photos! Those came from her high school yearbook! Sure doesn't sound like her mother didn't give a crap when she disappeared.

[gustava]

I see your point about intent, and I understand wanting to throw every crime possible at this sick bastard, but I still balk at applying the word murder to a fetus. Murder implies that the being that was killed had a right to the life that was taken away from it. A fetus has no legal rights, including the right to (potential) life. A woman, on the other hand, very much has a right to keep a pregnancy if she chooses and if someone assaults her in a way that causes her to miscarry, that is a crime. Against the woman. It's a slippery slope that I don't want to slide down.

Another perspective: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... cuted.html

[tuckerphez]

Those weren't even the family's photos! Those came from her high school yearbook! Sure doesn't sound like her mother didn't give a crap when she disappeared.

What about that one photo of her in the black shirt? Everywhere I've seen it, it's been credited to the Knight family.

(Not to say that her family isn't awful for a lot of things and she has every right to refuse to see them, but that photo had to come from someone that knew her.)

[TheLurkingFrumper]

I've also assumed that her parental rights were terminated, but most articles just say she "lost custody" or a "custody battle," which isn't definitive. If her rights were terminated after her abduction, she may be able to appeal the termination. I'm not familiar with family law in Ohio, however, and I'm certainly no lawyer.

From what I've read, Michelle was kidnapped a day or two before the custody hearing for her son. Since she did not show up for the hearing, she lost custody. The child was removed for her care when she was living with her mother and her mother's abusive boyfriend broke the child's arm.