Mormons, Husbands and Submission

[higgledypiggledy]

Well, I know that mormons sometimes come under fire here, especially since we have a couple of wack job blogs we follow with submissive mormon women. So I was FLORRED, FLOORED!!!! when I heard the update of a family from the town I grew up in. They were the visable mormons, you know the type from high school. They didn't date until they were sixteen, squeaky clean, went to religious school before school, the boys graduated school and went on missions before going to college. Well, the mom left the dad and dad was excommunicated. So I went to the source to find out what was up. I thought it might be for adultery or physical abuse or something. Well, according to ex wife and kids (they are all over 18 now I think) it was for "unrighteous dominion" which is explained to me as controlling the family and expecting them to submit to his desires without question. Yup, the guy was excommunicated for treating his wife like a doormat. So, after I picked my jaw up off the floor I had to probe. Was he physically abusive? No. Was there an affair in past? No. What made her say enough, this is wrong? The wife just finally decided enough was enough and that her marriage didn't resemble what she was taught at church and that she felt she deserved the family they preached about. She went to her leader and said "I am leaving my husband and this is why: I should never have put up with it for so long. I have been made to feel like I was a second class citizen in my home and taught by my husband that I was to defer to him in all things no matter what." So, I'm not sure exactly how the logistics work but I guess the leader opened an investigation and a panel interviewed all the kids about their life growing up, what they were taught, how they were disciplined, how the father treated the wife, what they understood the role of a wife to be etc... The wife and husband had the ability to call witnesses. It sounds a little like actually going to court but with a group of church leaders. The panel found that the husband had been manipulative and spiritually abusive in how he interpreted the role of a wife and was excommunicated. IHe was still welcome to attend church and associate with members of the congregation and was encouraged to do so but he couldn't pray, preach or teach. He was also told that to be invited back in he would need to repent, seek counseling and the forgiveness of his wife. Also, she was not expected to stay with him and the marriage "seal" was broken which as I understand it means that while she was divorcing the guy in civil court, the church extended a spiritual divorcement. Holy Cow!!!!!!! So this leaves me wondering which is more representational of mormons. The nutty blogs we follow or this case. I know there are mormons on this forum. PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE comment. I am CURIOUS?!?!? and frankly confused!?!?!?! What is your opinion folks? Are mormons into submissive wives and man as ruler or not?

[Soldier of the One]

I haven't seen any Mormom submissive blogs. Could you point me to some? I've been looking for some Mormon fundies to supplement my Calvinist/Independent Baptist fundie reading with :)

I am not a Mormon but I do get the feeling that the Mormons are more relaxed about a lot of gender and social stuff in comparison to the hardline Christian fundies. As far as I know, mainstream Mormons (who are pretty socially and religiously conservative) can:

- Date as teenagers/college kids and kiss their dates. No talk of 'pieces of hearts' being given away

- Modesty standards are reasonable: pants/skirts a bit above knee, capsleeves are acceptable

- Women go onto higher education and even careers, at least until motherhood

- Both women and men are encouraged to receive advanced education. College is not frowned upon

- A more body-positive sexual ethic, probably rooted in some significant theological differences with fundie Christianity

- Both women and men get to go on 'missions' that are not supervised by parents - a great way to establish independence

- The Mormon relationship model is more complementarian rather than patriarchal, more akin mainline Catholicism, Islam and Orthodox Judaism

I am not saying that there is no criticism to be leveled at the LDS church and a fortiori, at the various FLDS subcultures. But if I had to choose, I'd rather be a Mormon than with Bill Gothard/VF or God knows what else.

Any Mormons here who want to confirm or correct what I've just claimed? :)

[higgledypiggledy]

I didn't peruse the blog library but a few details that might help you remember and maybe someone can help me out with the blog names.

The chick who was into wearing Jane Austen dresses and talked about going to sacrament meeting, homeschooling her kids and raising her girls to be good wives and mothers.

The woman who rented out their home and was going to take her kids on the road after getting rid of the daughter's horse because it was clutter.

That weird lady who posted about modesty and little girls wearing dresses then bought overpriced "shorts" and posted pictures of her daughter wearing them whilst holding up her dress.

To those of you who remember the blog references or can find them faster than I, maybe you can help post links

[deelaem]

Yeah, the guy must have been really bad if the big bad priesthood thought he was going too far.

My sister is a Mormon, and she has grown children. One of her daughter's husband comes across as this really sweet, good guy who just adores his wife. Yet he has recently moved her to Japan for 4 years to further his career. My niece has a serious auto-immune disorder, and was terrified to move her self and her children to a country that has just suffered a huge tsunami and nuclear accident. Did that matter to him? No, it was her DUTY as a good little Mormon wifey to follow him anyway. This still makes my blood boil.

My experience is that Mormons are a very phony-acting lot. They put on this sweet face for the public, but it's not really that way behind closed doors.

[Beeks]

I tend to defend Mormons but one area I think they do pretty poorly in is consistency. My fil did far FAR worse than "control" his wife and nt only was he not excommunicated, he was promoted up through the ranks. The individual wards and stakes have a lot of authority in dealing with discipline.

Anothr thing that's important to remember is that the momo version of excommunication is a lot different than,say, the Catholic. It's not meant to permanently cut you off from the church or anything - it's part of the process of repentance and ultimately the desire is to bring you back into the church.

Sorry for riffles - on m phone here :)

[emmiedahl]

I've only heard 'unrighteous dominion' applied to women. As in, it's righteous dominion when the dh and future God is dominant, but unrighteous when the wife does it. I have a feeling he was asking her to do something immoral. otoh, it could just be a more liberal LDS church than I have been exposed to.

[ADoyle90815]

I'm not Mormon, but I have step family who are, and for the most part from what I've seen, the relationships are somewhat equal, even if the woman isn't considered a priest like her teenage sons would be. Women are encouraged to get an education, and not just to have something to do while waiting for a husband, but so she can help support the family if necessary. The SAHM is an ideal, but Mormons know that not all families can afford to have a single breadwinner, so no woman is going to be excommunicated for working outside the home. Birth control is considered something that's up to the couple and God, and most bishops have a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to using birth control.

[mirele]

Well, I know that mormons sometimes come under fire here, especially since we have a couple of wack job blogs we follow with submissive mormon women. So I was FLORRED, FLOORED!!!! when I heard the update of a family from the town I grew up in. They were the visable mormons, you know the type from high school. They didn't date until they were sixteen, squeaky clean, went to religious school before school, the boys graduated school and went on missions before going to college. Well, the mom left the dad and dad was excommunicated. So I went to the source to find out what was up. I thought it might be for adultery or physical abuse or something. Well, according to ex wife and kids (they are all over 18 now I think) it was for "unrighteous dominion" which is explained to me as controlling the family and expecting them to submit to his desires without question.

(snipped for length)

I'm a former Mormon (left finally over the electioneering re gay marriage in 2008). I've never heard of such a thing (being exed for "unrighteous dominion"), but it is possible. Even the most "Nazi Mormons" I knew weren't anything like the fundies we track on this board. The way of raising children is very different as well. Yeah, kids can get whacked, but it's not institutionalized as it is in evangelical and fundamentalist churches (you know, from Dobson to Pearl and everything in between).

I strongly suspect the unrighteous dominion arose because the husband forced the wife to engage in non-consensual sexual activity (most likely, oral or anal sex). Mormons can be just as squeamish about sex as the next very conservative person, but one thing is clear: if it's non-procreative and it makes one spouse uncomfortable, it's DEFINITELY a no-no. In fact, Mormons have been less than approving of consensual non-procreative sex in past years, although that has loosened up in recent decades.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts, I could be totally wrong.

[emesbe]

Meh. I have been Mormon all my life, and I am the least submissive wife you will ever meet.

[Jessica]

Meh. I have been Mormon all my life, and I am the least submissive wife you will ever meet.

Srsly. I see more husbands submitting to their wives than wives to husbands! ;)

[emmiedahl]

Granted, I only know a few Mormon families and they are very strict. But in all of the households, Dad calls the shots. They are also into Babywise. I witnessed one LDS dad forcefeed a toddler--making him chew and everything--at a family dinner because 'he needs to learn to eat what he is given'. I'm sure that's not mainstream LDS practice. But it's like all religious groups, with variations that fall far from the mean.

[emesbe]

I just asked my husband: "Am I a submissive wife?"

"HUH?"

"Am I a submissive wife?"

"Why?"

"Just answer the question." (note: not submissive)

"I don't know."

2 minutes later: "You didn't answer my question."

"Why would I think about something like that?"

So it's a consensus-----I am not submissive.

[higgledypiggledy]

Thanks for the opinions. I find it interesting that local churches have different standards for excommunication. So basically, they are more independent than I thought and don't always differ to head quarters for how stuff must be done.

[stacyf]

I worked for a Mormon family for quite a while and found them to be very hypocritical. It seemed to me that they could care less about us Gentiles and were just worried about making their money for the church, I had a bad experience with racist behavior on the business owners part (using the N word) so I may be biased. they had 11 kids and the father, who seemed angry all the time ran that home with an iron fist. I also just finished reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" and it really changed my mind on a lot of things and has really got me thinking. The Meadow Massacre really just got me angry but then again I began to wonder if I am angry with the Mormon Church for their atrocities shouldn't I hold the Christian church just as culpable. If you look at all the craziness that is Moroni and Joseph Smith with and open mind don't you have to look at Jesus and his story the same way. 200 years or 2000 years what's the difference....I have been thinking :? about this too much lately...

[Kelya]

my best friend was a very strict, molly mormon family and her parents got divorced and she never explained why but blushed every time someone mentioned it. I felt really bad for her. I had a bad experience at mormon camp and think the mormon church has LOTS of issues, including the financial sort. http://www.exmormon.org is very interesting. And while both genders go on missions, men go at 18 and women go at 21, which really bothers me. also hello racism! black people weren't allowed in church until fairly recently.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And while both genders go on missions, men go at 18 and women go at 21, which really bothers me..

What's the reasoning on that? I've always wondered.

[treemom]

I agree with Beeks in that there is (like many other religions) come consistency issues in LDS churches.

Also, I consider the average LDS practitioner to be fundie-lite.

[Kelya]

What's the reasoning on that? I've always wondered.

I assume its some dumb maturity/capability/oh yay masculinity thing, because I can't think of any real reason. Missions aren't mandatory for women, either, so I have a sneaking suspicion they hope the women will get married before becoming mission eligible.

[Soldier of the One]

How does that line up with marriage? When a boy gets back from a mission, a girl is about to leave. Seems impractical to me.

[EmmieJ]

I am no expert on Mormonism, but have cousins who are Mormon (my mom's sister married a lapsed Mormon, and at some point after they had children, he re-joined and she and the children became Mormon). That is my most direct and long-lasting contact with a Mormon family. I also had a Mormon friend/acquaintance who I met when we worked across the hall from one another for years and became friends that way.

First - the Mormons I know personally are all California Mormons. That may make a difference.

The woman who worked across the hall from me was divorced. Her husband had been Mormon, but my understanding was that he was the one who wanted out of the marriage, and wasn't behaving as a good Mormon husband should. So my friend was still Mormon but she also never remarried. Thus, the somewhat unusual situation of a divorced working Mormon mom. She was a really nice lady, had a sometimes sarcastic sense of humor, but sadly we parted ways at the time the Mormon Church was pushing Prop. 8.

As to my cousins, from what I've witnessed, they honor the idea that the husband is the head of the household. However, the partnerships certainly seem harmonious, with each partner valuing the other and wanting their opinion/input. I suppose if there is a disagreement, maybe the husband gets the last word, with the wives willing to allow that for peace in the household. The husbands were all very much into family, and doing fun family things together. My girl cousins never worked outside the home, and preferred it that way --- but their mother, my aunt, worked until she retired as a special ed teacher, and that occupation was honored and respected by her family.

I also worked briefly with a lawyer who was Mormon. He was a young married man, very happily so. His wife would drop by with their two little girls to visit sometimes and she seemed very happy too. He clearly treasured her, and one time spoke about how she was away on a women's retreat and how important that was for wives and mothers, to have a break so they didn't get burned out.

I know this doesn't answer the OP's original questions, but I was just tossing out some outside observations I've made in my life. I'm happily of no particular religion and would never consider converting to Mormonism, but I think of the more conservative religions, they at least seem to embrace higher education, a harmonious relationship between spouses and family, and while they expect good behavior from their children, I've only seen calm discipline, not institutionalized spanking, use of wooden spoons, etc.

[blisterine]

businessweek has an article about how mormons make better leaders:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 977933.htm

[Kathryn31]

I am Mormon and yes you can be excommunicated for unrighteous dominion. It is rare and the guy must have been mentally abusive and very controlling within the family. She cannot get the sealing "broken" until she remarries in the temple.

"My experience is that Mormons are a very phony-acting lot. They put on this sweet face for the public, but it's not really that way behind closed doors".

Nice blanket comment. You cannot condemn thirteen million people over the few you have met. I am sure I know more jerks who are Mormon than you and some areas have a concentration (Utah).

Mormon women are encouraged to attend college and Mormons are the most educated religion and have a lower divorce rate than any including born-agains (this is for temple married Mormons).

The Jane Austen chick (Emily) and "The Lazy Organizer" are beyond nuts especially Lazy O. Seriously, I have never known a skirts only or head-covering Mormon EVER and there are no words for the sheer crazy of the vegan, RVing, homeschooling, declutterer that is Lazy O. Even in Utah people would look at her sideways.

Also if you are excommunicated you are also not allowed to pay tithing. They do tend to help you do what you need to do to be baptized again.

"Granted, I only know a few Mormon families and they are very strict. But in all of the households, Dad calls the shots. They are also into Babywise. I witnessed one LDS dad forcefeed a toddler--making him chew and everything--at a family dinner because 'he needs to learn to eat what he is given'. I'm sure that's not mainstream LDS practice. But it's like all religious groups, with variations that fall far from the mean."

I have never known anyone to do this and I don't even know what Babywise is?

Honestly I think the reason guys leave at 19 is to keep them out of trouble. There was a study done and the average missionary ages seven years maturity wise while gone those two years. Many LDS women get married younger than 22 or 23 so many do not go on a mission. It is not required the same for women as for men.

I am not submissive. Ask handcuff when he is on FJ next. We make all major decision together. I tend to make more decisions with the kids and money. In our marriage we are side by side not one in front of the other.

[deelaem]

I am Mormon and yes you can be excommunicated for unrighteous dominion. It is rare and the guy must have been mentally abusive and very controlling within the family. She cannot get the sealing "broken" until she remarries in the temple.

"My experience is that Mormons are a very phony-acting lot. They put on this sweet face for the public, but it's not really that way behind closed doors".

Nice blanket comment. You cannot condemn thirteen million people over the few you have met. I am sure I know more jerks who are Mormon than you and some areas have a concentration (Utah).

Mormon women are encouraged to attend college and Mormons are the most educated religion and have a lower divorce rate than any including born-agains (this is for temple married Mormons).

The Jane Austen chick (Emily) and "The Lazy Organizer" are beyond nuts especially Lazy O. Seriously, I have never known a skirts only or head-covering Mormon EVER and there are no words for the sheer crazy of the vegan, RVing, homeschooling, declutterer that is Lazy O. Even in Utah people would look at her sideways.

Also if you are excommunicated you are also not allowed to pay tithing. They do tend to help you do what you need to do to be baptized again.

"Granted, I only know a few Mormon families and they are very strict. But in all of the households, Dad calls the shots. They are also into Babywise. I witnessed one LDS dad forcefeed a toddler--making him chew and everything--at a family dinner because 'he needs to learn to eat what he is given'. I'm sure that's not mainstream LDS practice. But it's like all religious groups, with variations that fall far from the mean."

I have never known anyone to do this and I don't even know what Babywise is?

Honestly I think the reason guys leave at 19 is to keep them out of trouble. There was a study done and the average missionary ages seven years maturity wise while gone those two years. Many LDS women get married younger than 22 or 23 so many do not go on a mission. It is not required the same for women as for men.

I am not submissive. Ask handcuff when he is on FJ next. We make all major decision together. I tend to make more decisions with the kids and money. In our marriage we are side by side not one in front of the other.

Oh, you're handcuff's wife. That explains a lot. First of all, my statement was not a blanket one. If you'd read it correctly, you'll see that I said "in my experience", which is precisely the opposite of being a blanket statement.

Second, I happen to know a lot of Mormons because they are part of my family. I've also read a lot of essays/books by ex-Mormons, so the realities of your church are common knowledge to me. I know you have to toe the party line, so there's no way I'm going to find your arguments convincing. Mormons are masters at making their church seem so cool and mainstream. Just a little digging quickly shows a discerning person that it's anything but.

Seriously, why do you and your husband come on this forum? I can't imagine why anything we discuss here would be of interest to you - except maybe to defend your way of life.

[dcmhejbl62]

In theory Mormonism is very patriarchal. For instance, in the afterlife, a wife goes to heaven when (and if, lol) her husband calls her by her secret name; couples must be polygamous to continue progressing; motherhood is extolled as the end-all be-all for women; women can't hold the priesthood or hold church leadership positions (bishop, stake counselor, etc.). And you'll always find twits who extend that patriarchy to marriage and family in a big way, similar to the fundie families we watch.

However, even in the most entrenched LDS family, education is highly valued for men and women, as is critical thinking (as long as it isn't applied to their own religion), so you don't find many of the mind-numbing zombie SAHDs and wives, for instance. They don't consider a women turning off her brain and blindly obeying her husband as being pleasing to God; there is an expectation for both partners to work in whatever area to make the marriage succeed. There is also such a focus on achievement, being the best one can be, that working moms are not as looked down upon, especially if they can combine it effectively with motherhood.

Mormons who are more "liberal" or not the "Utah-Mormon" brand have an even more egalitarian approach to marriage and life.

Have I mentioned how much I love Mormons? ; )

[Witsec1]

Question here:

I have the impression that there aren't so many freelance "ministries" aka money-making enterprises promoting marriage and lifestyle advice within the Mormon church. So while there are regional variations there aren't groups like Vision Forum exploiting different market niches within the church and pushing them in a more radical direction. Is that a fair assessment?