Rape, Football, and Social Media

[BoomerLynn]

You know, I mostly ignore doggie's posts but I just can't ignore this one. Doggie, you have a daughter. How would you feel if this happened to her and some jerk was saying "Well, I don't think those guys will do it again since they only put their fingers in her. It was just a prank gone wrong." I am absolutely sickened by the things you have posted on this thread. Let me spell it out for you:

RAPE IS RAPE

It does not matter if they used their fingers, their penises, or any other object. They penetrated her. When she was unconcious and therefore could not consent. They may not have gotten off sexually from it, but it was still very much a power trip for them. This is why rapes happen. It is about having power over another human being.

RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX, IT IS ABOUT POWER.

These boys were treated as gods in their town. In their eyes, they could do whatever they wanted and get away with it because they were athletes. They were elevated above everyone else in terms of status. In their eyes, that girl was not a human being, but a plaything. A toy for their amusement. But the reality is, she is a human being with thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams. And for the rest of her life, she will have to live with the fact that she was violated, and even worse, she will never truly know exactly what happed. It will be extremely difficult for her to ever have closure, and likely impossible for her to ever trust again. Her life has been forever changed because of what these boys did to her. So when you say things like "they only put their fingers in her" and describe what they did as a "prank gone wrong" it minimizes her experience . It minimizes the true horror of what she went through. I could care less about the feelings of those boys. I don't care what they thought they were doing. They traumatized another person, they raped someone. I could care less whether you think they will do it again. They already did it. And they are damn sure old enough to know better and to know right from wrong, as are you. And while some of your opinions could be the result of the rape culture and misogyny rampant in this country, you have been repeatedly told what is wrong with your statements. You were born with a brain, now fucking use it.

[doggie]

put away the pitchforks and torches. At no time did I ever justify what they did was a prank or think it was non sexual. My whole point was to try to point out they thought it was a prank that went wrong. that they did not think it was sexual. I was trying to point out that they did not have sexual intercourse so I doubt it was a sexual thing with them and they may not be inclined to repeat it. . I never said it was not rape or was not bad or that they don't deserve punishment from it. The way they acted and how their supporters acted They did not think it was a rape.

SO stop accusing me saying I thought it. I may have come off that way But I Just had trouble wording it the right way. If I made it sound like I supported it I am sorry but I was trying to be very careful in pointing out that I was just referring to how they saw the whole thing. Yes it is rape when they put their fingers in her but it is not sexual intercourse I don't think will promote the same feelings.

[dawbs]

Doggie, I don't know if you're being willfully obtuse or are just being especially dim today, but what you seem not to get is that your clarifications do NOT MAKE IT BETTER.

EVERYTHING that you keep saying to 'clarify' your point is, once again, re-iterating that they didn't get full sexual satisfaction.

You are saying that they didn't get sexual satisfaction because it was (forwarning, I'm guessing if this is trigger-y, people are avoiding this thread already, but, JIC, I'm probably going to be less than tactful) "finger rape".

Which, indirectly, is saying that the purpose of "regular" rape is sexual satisfaction.

That's false. The purpose of rape is not about sexual satisfaction. period.

The purpose of rape is NOT, to quote you 'a sexual thing'.

The purpose of rape is violence. The purpose of rape is dehumanizing. The purpose of rape is humiliation. The purpose of rape is control.

If you assume achieving THOSE things is the purpose of rape? they were 'satisfied' and got their "climax".

On your other point, that they didn't think it was rape--well, I would say a great many rapists can pretend they didn't think it was rape. I'd assume that not thinking it was rape (and STILL not thinking it was rape) actually INCREASES the likelihood of doing it again.

[valsa]

put away the pitchforks and torches. At no time did I ever justify what they did was a prank or think it was non sexual. My whole point was to try to point out they thought it was a prank that went wrong. that they did not think it was sexual. I was trying to point out that they did not have sexual intercourse so I doubt it was a sexual thing with them and they may not be inclined to repeat it. . I never said it was not rape or was not bad or that they don't deserve punishment from it. The way they acted and how their supporters acted They did not think it was a rape.

SO stop accusing me saying I thought it. I may have come off that way But I Just had trouble wording it the right way. If I made it sound like I supported it I am sorry but I was trying to be very careful in pointing out that I was just referring to how they saw the whole thing. Yes it is rape when they put their fingers in her but it is not sexual intercourse I don't think will promote the same feelings.

I hope you will have learned to be far less of an ass before someone ever decides to stick their fingers inside your wife or daughter.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Diggie Doggie:

[IamCanadian]

I came across this on FB. Very interesting viewpoint about society feeling more empathy for rape victims when they are seen as wives, daughters, friends, sisters...(in other words, property of someone else) instead of individuals in their own right.

Not breaking the link because I'm pretty sure the blogger wouldn't mind:

http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -daughter/

[BravaAmica]

I hope you will have learned to be far less of an ass before someone ever decides to stick their fingers inside your wife or daughter.

valsa, that shit is uncalled for. Not kidding. Yes, doggie posted some offensive shit but to wish that on his wife and daughter (even in such an oblique fashion) is fucking sick.

[AnywhereButHere]

Ignoring Doggie for now....

Even though the prison sentences are short, it is great news that this got such high media coverage. Outside of their small towns, I'm pretty sure their football careers are over. What kind of reputable college would let any of the convicted boys play for their teams? With scholarships? Parents paying tuition would have a field day, as would students footing their own bill. I know as a female I would switch colleges and take my business elsewhere.

Edited for clarity

Unfortunately, the public has a way of "forgetting" as time goes by, and there are plenty of colleges who put athletic glory over all, Penn State and Notre Dame for two. Win us a few titles and we'll overlook most things until the outcry gets too large, and then we'll back off and do the least we can to pacify until enough time has passed and we can go back to business as usual. It's sickening. Hopefully, since this has become so high profile, you're right and colleges would shy away from accepting these two monsters (should they try to pick up their lives in football after their sentence is over), but there are so many other entitled people out there who have been programmed to think they can do no wrong. We all sit here after something like this and say we need to change the culture, but it doesn't seem like too much progress has been made. Superficially yes, but on the deeper level no.

Disclaimer: There are many athletes, highschool, college, professional, who are not entitled, horrible people who take what they want when they want it. There are some who pull stupid pranks that aren't criminal, just stupid. I think that's a part of growing up. There are many who are responsible, caring people. I don't want to go too far in the other direction and say that all athletes are immoral and sports are responsible for evil actions. The people who perpetrate them are immoral and tend to thrive, I think, in a culture that allows them to avoid all blame and responsibility, but not everyone in that culture will develope character flaws. It's the square and rectangle thing, but I'm rambling now and making little sense, so I'm stopping.

[doggie]

I hope you will have learned to be far less of an ass before someone ever decides to stick their fingers inside your wife or daughter.

Jesus where have I ever condoned rape in any form?? Point out where I did. I Know rape is about power and sexual power and control over a woman. the power and the sexual conquest is a powerful motivator to do it again. The whole caveman thing going on. I still think they did it as a prank and it turned into a power trip ( I did not know they urinated on her) Now that they are caught I don't see them doing it again. No one knows what they will do or how they really feel. Once this all sets into their little minds I think they will learn their lesson. I think this happened because of booze and the whole sports hero crap that goes on.

that's just my opinion from observing them. I don't think they will be punished enough but at least they did not get away with it.

[doggie]

I hope you will have learned to be far less of an ass before someone ever decides to stick their fingers inside your wife or daughter.

Well too late we caught a neighbor touching our daughter when she was 5 so I guess you got your wish. And to think I am called a ass.

[formergothardite]

Doggie, if they did it as a prank it was to show that they had power and sexual control over a woman. They don't view this as them doing anything wrong and I have no doubt they would do it again, this time, though they will be smarter and hide it better. If a person willl rape a girl as a prank once and think there is nothing wrong with their actions, they will do it again. They have shown no remorse for their actions, no sign that they realize the horror of what they did.

[GiggleOfGirls]

Well, I guess we know where at least one of the boys got his entitlement from after that post by his MOM calling the girl a whore. WTF???

[laura oz]

Well too late we caught a neighbor touching our daughter when she was 5 so I guess you got your wish. And to think I am called a ass.

Doggie, I don't like what you said earlier, but if that's true I'm so sorry. Hope you pressed charges against the pos and your little girl is ok.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

My whole point was to try to point out they thought it was a prank that went wrong. that they did not think it was sexual.

You honestly don't see how the fact that it's possible for them to think that way shows exactly how horrific rape culture is?

It's because we live in a rape culture where deep down, in the lizard brain, people are raised to think that women as a baseline DESERVE to be treated this way unless they are paragons of virtue (i.e. the "madonna/whore complex") that makes it possible for people to say "ah, I can see how those boys are so surprised people are taking this so seriously - they were just fooling around!"

The fact that they thought it was merely a "prank" is NOT a mitigating factor in their actions, in fact it makes the entire thing WORSE.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

And let me add that the disturbing bit about "well, it wasn't actual PIV intercourse, so it's not really rape" (as a general opinion, not in reference specifically to anything in the thread) is extra disturbing too because those views are all about viewing rape as the theft of a woman's "virtue," i.e. if you do that to her she's spoiled for anyone else, but if it's just touching, or small item in there, well, the seal hasn't been broken, y'know?

[happy atheist]

Well too late we caught a neighbor touching our daughter when she was 5 so I guess you got your wish. And to think I am called a ass.

Before I get into anything else: I'm sorry that something so horrible happened to your daughter.

Valsa did not say she hopes something bad will happen to your wife or daughter. She said she hopes you learn compassion in case something bad were to happen to your wife or daughter. There's a big difference.

And I find your attitude about the "rape prank" surprising and even more distressing knowing that you and your family have had to deal with such a horrific situation.

[valsa]

Well too late we caught a neighbor touching our daughter when she was 5 so I guess you got your wish. And to think I am called a ass.

If you think that was a wish for someone to hurt your daughter then you're as stupid as you are an ass.

My only wish is that you reacted to your daughter's sexual assault with more sense and compassion than you've shown here. For instance, I really hope you didn't chaulk up what was done to her as "well, maybe our neighbor thought it was a prank".

[valsa]

valsa, that shit is uncalled for. Not kidding. Yes, doggie posted some offensive shit but to wish that on his wife and daughter (even in such an oblique fashion) is fucking sick.

Then it's a good thing I didn't wish anything on them but a compassionate and well-informed husband and father, huh?

[doggie]

You honestly don't see how the fact that it's possible for them to think that way shows exactly how horrific rape culture is?

The fact that they thought it was merely a "prank" is NOT a mitigating factor in their actions, in fact it makes the entire thing WORSE.

Never said or thought that. Never said if they thought it was prank makes it ok. I am just saying that they can't be condemned as serial rapists off hand. They did the rape and that's a fact that I never argued and never thought less because of it. Either they will learn from it or they will not only time will tell.

[doggie]

If you think that was a wish for someone to hurt your daughter then you're as stupid as you are an ass.

My only wish is that you reacted to your daughter's sexual assault with more sense and compassion than you've shown here. For instance, I really hope you didn't chaulk up what was done to her as "well, maybe our neighbor thought it was a prank".

I hoped you can understand I am not condoning or never have condoned what they did. You see them as serial rapists and I see them as fucked up kids that may learn from what they did. I see people here ready to hang them. I have been trying to say they could have gang raped her. but they did not so don't treat them like they did. Don't treat them like the prank they thought it was either. Treat them for the crimes and violations they did and hope they get better. Treating them like gang rapists is no better then treating them like they did no wrong.

[valsa]

I hoped you can understand I am not condoning or never have condoned what they did. You see them as serial rapists and I see them as fucked up kids that may learn from what they did. I see people here ready to hang them. I have been trying to say they could have gang raped her. but they did not so don't treat them like they did. Don't treat them like the prank they thought it was either. Treat them for the crimes and violations they did and hope they get better. Treating them like gang rapists is no better then treating them like they did no wrong.

And would you have been okay with people making excuses for the person who sexually assaulted your daughter? He or she only touched her when they could have raped her, so that somehow makes it better? He or she is just X, Y, or Z (in this case it's "fucked up kids" but people are willing to make similar excuses even for adults) so they can learn to be better? Because that's what you're doing to this girl, who is someone's daughter.

[Librul]

If more than one person penetrates forcibly/without consent, then that IS GANG RAPE, as in, more than one person taking a turn. These two are the only ones convicted. Others collaborated, cooperated and looked the other way. As in More than One. Gang.

[LostSamurai]

I'm done with CNN. Fuck y'all for siding with the rapists; poor kids my ass, but nevermind about the victim in all of this....

These two kids deserve more time. They RAPED a girl. There shouldn't be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO special excuses or expunging their records because they were underaged. They knew WHAT they were doing. Fucking deviants. Put them on the sex offender list!!!

And to Doggie or whatever your name is: Fuck you, man. FUCK YOU. I hope to god that nothing ever happens to any daughters you have.

Anyone who sides with the rapists does not deserve respect in my opinion.

[Dinaberries]

I was going to PM the following to Dinaberries but I decided to post it here instead:

I knew there was a reason I kept putting off opening this thread. You are spot-on about doggie, but there's no fucking point. I honestly do think that he's too stupid to understand. You could guide him through, step by step, and he wouldn't get it, he'd still be there herp-derping it up, inflicting his important man opinions on the rest of freejinger even after the community has repeatedly shown irritated tolerance, at best, in response to his posts. Like, his latest post is on how it was a "prank" so they won't do it again, and I could go in and say "what evidence do you have to suggest that that mindset prevents re-offending" but there is no. point.

I agree with you that there really isn't point because he will never change his views, but I am just so furious about the things people like him have been saying about this case, and I have had to hear statements like this whenever a young man with a "promising future", or just any male who is liked or respected for some reason, chooses to rape a girl/woman. I just couldn't take it anymore and I needed to say something.

[doggie]

I'm done with CNN. Fuck y'all for siding with the rapists; poor kids my ass, but nevermind about the victim in all of this....

These two kids deserve more time. They RAPED a girl. There shouldn't be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO special excuses or expunging their records because they were underaged. They knew WHAT they were doing. Fucking deviants. Put them on the sex offender list!!!

And to Doggie or whatever your name is: Fuck you, man. FUCK YOU. I hope to god that nothing ever happens to any daughters you have.

Anyone who sides with the rapists does not deserve respect in my opinion.

FUCK YOU TOO AND YOUR POOR COMPREHENSION SKILLS. I get so sick of people misunderstanding me. I never said that they were not guilty that they deserved less punishment or that they were nice guys. My whole point was just to point out how they may have saw it and that they may not repeat it. That's it. But all I see I am accused of saying they should get off and that they did not rape and all kinds of SHIT I never said. I do have trouble explaining myself But this is getting FUCKING OLD. I wanted them to get more punishment I do not condone or have I ever posted that they Deserve a light sentence. But I see them being accused of being serial rapists and that there is no way they would ever stop. I was trying to point out this may not be the case. But in NO FUCKING WAY have I ever condoned what they did was a no big deal. Take that as you will and believe what you want Kind of reminds me of a fundy. They deserve severe punishment But they are also young and they need a chance to change. What kind of America would this be if every first offender was given life in jail? But I see a witch hunt here and people read what they want to read in my posts.