Rape, Football, and Social Media

[laura oz]

I just tried lincoln park after dark on my toes and am not sure if I like it cause it feels too heavy for spring. Thinking of trying one of the teal shades next time. :whistle:

eta Because you can't make a horse drink.

[formergothardite]

I hoped you can understand I am not condoning or never have condoned what they did. You see them as serial rapists and I see them as fucked up kids that may learn from what they did. I see people here ready to hang them. I have been trying to say they could have gang raped her. but they did not so don't treat them like they did. Don't treat them like the prank they thought it was either. Treat them for the crimes and violations they did and hope they get better. Treating them like gang rapists is no better then treating them like they did no wrong.

Why? They could have tortured and murdered her too, but they only :roll: raped her. A group of guys, one of which was stone sober, stood there and enjoyed the raping of a young teen. They don't get any gold stars or brownie points for not doing more horrible things. What they did was pretty horrrible on it's own. They have it in them to not only rape a girl, but to not view rape as being bad. To view the person who was raped as the one to blame. They still seem to feel this way and don't appear to accept any blame for their actions. Why the hell won't they do this again? They enjoyed the power that came with rape, they bragged about it for days. They got a powere high off of sexually humiliating a woman. Since the only thing they regret is not covering up their actions better, what makes you think that they won't do this again except this time hide it better? What makes them any better than gang rapists?

[dawbs]

*snip*

FUCK YOU TOO AND YOUR POOR COMPREHENSION SKILLS. I get so sick of people misunderstanding me. I never said that they were not guilty that they deserved less punishment or that they were nice guys. My whole point was just to point out how they may have saw it and that they may not repeat it. That's it*snip*

Dude, when EVERYONE 'misunderstands' you, it's probably not that everyone here suddenly had a drop in reading comprehension skills. One person misunderstanding can be poor comprehension skills. Multiple people means that you're saying it wrong.

It means what you are saying =/= what you think you are saying OR what you are saying = implications you're not grasping.

(My money is on the latter. That somehow, you're not taking what you're typing out into a world where the rest of us live.)

[Spider Burps]

Dude, when EVERYONE 'misunderstands' you, it's probably not that everyone here suddenly had a drop in reading comprehension skills. One person misunderstanding can be poor comprehension skills. Multiple people means that you're saying it wrong.

It means what you are saying =/= what you think you are saying OR what you are saying = implications you're not grasping.

(My money is on the latter. That somehow, you're not taking what you're typing out into a world where the rest of us live.)

After sleeping on it, I think I understand what doggie is trying to say. I feel like he's trying to say that yes, these kids are rapists, but no, we can't be sure that they're going to grow up to be repeat sexual offenders. I think he believes they deserve more punishment than they will receive, but that they deserve a chance to become productive adults once they have completed their sentences--you know, so they aren't essentially forced by society into becoming career criminals due to a horrific thing they did when their brains were still developing (kind of like how kids/teens can literally get away with murder because they didn't think their actions through.) I don't think doggie is trying to excuse them, rather he is trying to view them as human beings who made a deplorable "mistake" (not a strong enough word, but can't think of anything better) rather than immediately judging them as animals deserving of slaughter.

At this point, however, no amount of explaining on his part will change your opinion of his (sometimes poorly explained) thoughts. I think this case is touching a raw nerve for everyone involved--and objective conversations can be difficult to have when feelings are involved. (Example: bringing up doggie's wife/daughter, no matter how abstractly. Uncalled for.) I don't think this thread is going anywhere at this point, and it really seems like we're all just attacking one another. Perhaps a step away from the computer would make all involved feel better.

edited for clarity

[valsa]

After sleeping on it, I think I understand what doggie is trying to say. I feel like he's trying to say that yes, these kids are rapists, but no, we can't be sure that they're going to grow up to be repeat sexual offenders. I think he believes they deserve more punishment than they will receive, but that they deserve a chance to become productive adults once they have completed their sentences--you know, so they aren't essentially forced by society into becoming career criminals due to a horrific thing they did when their brains were still developing (kind of like how kids/teens can literally get away with murder because they didn't think their actions through.) I don't think doggie is trying to excuse them, rather he is trying to view them as human beings who made a deplorable "mistake" (not a strong enough word, but can't think of anything better) rather than immediately judging them as animals deserving of slaughter.

At this point, however, no amount of explaining on his part will change your opinion of his (sometimes poorly explained) thoughts. I think this case is touching a raw nerve for everyone involved--and objective conversations can be difficult to have when feelings are involved. (Example: bringing up doggie's wife/daughter, no matter how abstractly. Uncalled for.) I don't think this thread is going anywhere at this point, and it really seems like we're all just attacking one another. Perhaps a step away from the computer would make all involved feel better.

edited for clarity

Except that's not really what his argument is. His argument was that since they "just" put their fingers in her, they likely saw what they were doing as a prank and not sexual assault, so they're somehow going to be less likely to victimize someone else in the future. Which is crap. A group of boys who decide they have the right to put their fingers inside the vagina of a girl who is not or cannot consent to it have exactly the same mentality as a group of boys who decide they have the right to put their penises inside a girl who is not or cannot consent to it.

As for bringing up his wife and daughter, I thought long and hard before doing so and ultimately decided to do it for the greater good, so to speak (and it is your right to disagree with whether it crossed a line or not) Doggie has a long, long history of vile sexist posts and comments, particularly on issues like this. Trying to get him to personalize it was a Hail Mary pass to try to "shock" him into finally getting why what he was saying is so offensive.

[Spider Burps]

Except that's not really what his argument is. His argument was that since they "just" put their fingers in her, they likely saw what they were doing as a prank and not sexual assault, so they're somehow going to be less likely to victimize someone else in the future. Which is crap. A group of boys who decide they have the right to put their fingers inside the vagina of a girl who is not or cannot consent to it have exactly the same mentality as a group of boys who decide they have the right to put their penises inside a girl who is not or cannot consent to it.

As for bringing up his wife and daughter, I thought long and hard before doing so and ultimately decided to do it for the greater good, so to speak (and it is your right to disagree with whether it crossed a line or not) Doggie has a long, long history of vile sexist posts and comments, particularly on issues like this. Trying to get him to personalize it was a Hail Mary pass to try to "shock" him into finally getting why what he was saying is so offensive.

I feel like he just (hah) misused the word "just," which made him seem like a rape apologist when I really don't think that was his opinion in the least. I know I am guilty of "just" abuse myself and am very careful not to do so on FJ because it can and does cause backlash. I feel like, had he chosen his words more carefully, everyone would be on the same side and there would be no argument. (And, really, I do think these kids saw it as a prank and not sexual assault because it was "just" their fingers. I think that's what doggie was trying to bring up, not that he personally viewed it as "just" anything or less of a rape for any reason.)

I'm not doggie, though, so I can't speak for him (especially since I don't think I've ever spoken to him.) I just wanted to mention that I feel like he's often misunderstood due to his stream of consciousness style writing combined with a bluntly sarcastic sense of humor that doesn't seem to work well without the accompanying "wink wink" you'd get in real life.

[valsa]

I feel like, had he chosen his words more carefully, everyone would be on the same side and there would be no argument. (And, really, I do think these kids saw it as a prank and not sexual assault because it was "just" their fingers.

Seeing as I strongly disagree with the second bolded, I don't think the first bolded would happen at all.

I don't care if these boys saw it as a prank because it was just their fingers, they're just as guilty of sexual assault as someone who used their penis (whether that someone who used their penis saw it as a prank or not and, yes, I do know of guys who would think outright raping someone with a penis could be a prank) and I see no evidence that they're any less likely to re-offend (with fingers or penis) than someone who used their penis.

They've shown no remorse (other than the fact they got caught because they didn't hide their evidence well enough) and they have an appallingly large number of people supporting them due to their athletic skill alone. That combination of lack of remorse, a feeling that they’re “owed†anything they want, and that they can get away with it because of athletics is a dangerous combination that I don’t see getting any less dangerous any time soon.

[formergothardite]

Seeing as I strongly disagree with the second bolded, I don't think the first bolded would happen at all.

I don't care if these boys saw it as a prank because it was just their fingers, they're just as guilty of sexual assault as someone who used their penis (whether that someone who used their penis saw it as a prank or not and, yes, I do know of guys who would think outright raping someone with a penis could be a prank) and I see no evidence that they're any less likely to re-offend (with fingers or penis) than someone who used their penis.

They've shown no remorse (other than the fact they got caught because they didn't hide their evidence well enough) and they have an appallingly large number of people supporting them due to their athletic skill alone. That combination of lack of remorse, a feeling that they’re “owed†anything they want, and that they can get away with it because of athletics is a dangerous combination that I don’t see getting any less dangerous any time soon.

ITA. These guys think that raping someone for a prank isn't really rape and isn't bad. Since they believe that way, then there is nothing to stop them from doing it again, just being smarter about hiding it. I just don't see what makes people thing that unrepentant teens who think rape isn't really rape and is just something to be done for funsies aren't going to do this again if given the chance.

[LilMissMetaphor]

people read what they want to read in my posts.

Well, we try. Misogyny completely aside, most of the time it's such badly garbled, punctuation-free word-puke that you're lucky we derive any sort of meaning from it at all.

I don't give a flying monkey's fart if you're typing from your phone. Most of the time I'm pretty sure a drunk pigeon hopping across the keyboard would make more sense than you.

[doggie]

I am sorry I have a hard time explaining what I mean and it seldom comes off like I mean it too. it has been a battle all of my life and I doubt it will get better. I feel like the nutty professor most of the time. it does not help that my fingers don't type what I want them too so I spend a lot of time trying to fix my mistakes I miss other problems.

The whole reason I was pointing out them thinking it was a prank it is better then them thinking other worse thoughts. no way does their thinking condone what they did or should it give them a lighter sentence. but it may lead to them not doing it again. That's all I was trying to point out. Hell I would be first in line to hold them while she kicked them in the crotch till her legs fell off.

[doggie]

Well, we try. Misogyny completely aside, most of the time it's such badly garbled, punctuation-free word-puke that you're lucky we derive any sort of meaning from it at all.

I don't give a flying monkey's fart if you're typing from your phone. Most of the time I'm pretty sure a drunk pigeon hopping across the keyboard would make more sense than you.

Bite me miss perfect. But of course this makes you so much of a better person.

[formergothardite]

I just don't get why them thinking raping someone is "just a prank" and that their actions were not bad AND placing all the blame on the girl for ruining THEIR lives makes you think that they won't do this again.

[paganhomeschooler]

I lived a little ways down the road in Massillon,Oh for long time.Anything near these areas that has to do with football is blown up big time.The fact that this has to do with football players it doesn't surprise me as they are treated like kings in these little towns and its probably more likely people were worried about messing up their seasons then what happened to her.Not that it an excuse as nothing should excuse these players from punishment .I just have seen it all players being excused many different kinds of things just cause the town they live values football over anything else.Our town had 20,000 seat stadium and almost 8,000 season ticket holders so most of the school money is coming from football.And has over sold college stadiums during playoff games.

A lot of these kids think they are the most powerful thing in these towns .They feel they do no wrong or the town will die off without them.I am glad the courts punished these kids for what they did as it horrible thing.I wish parents would have more control over these parties so that kids wouldn't feel they had so much room to get away with this kind of thing.

Holy freakin' cow....small world! I just moved to the other side of the county after living in Massillon all my life. Thankfully, I went to Tuslaw, not WHS.

Don't forget about the Astroturf field and LIVE TIGER mascot they replace every year. How can you forget Obie?!?! The Obie booster club will be after you! :naughty:

[Three and Done]

I have purposefully avoided this thread up until now due to the extremely triggering nature of it for me. (I am quite sick to my stomach and having flashbacks right now...)

These predators (for that is EXACTLY what they are) intentionally drugged and sexually assaulted a young girl because they could. To compound that horror, they took pictures and videos and shared them with a large number of people (who shared them with more people), which in effect raped that girl over and over again. She WILL NEVER KNOW who saw her degradation, she WILL NEVER KNOW who may still have pictures/video of her assault, and she WILL NEVER KNOW if her assault will live on forever somewhere on a hard drive or the internet. She DOES KNOW that there were people who derived some sick satisfaction from what happened to her, she DOES KNOW that NOT ONE FUCKING PERSON HELPED HER, and YOU CANNOT ERASE THAT FROM HER MIND.

I am thankful my rapist didn't have the ability to take pictures or video - it was bad enough that he spread the "word" that I was a whore. That was many years ago, but I can tell you - I WILL NEVER FUCKING GET OVER IT!

[Cannelle]

http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape ... e-101.html

[Spider Burps]

Seeing as I strongly disagree with the second bolded, I don't think the first bolded would happen at all.

I don't care if these boys saw it as a prank because it was just their fingers, they're just as guilty of sexual assault as someone who used their penis (whether that someone who used their penis saw it as a prank or not and, yes, I do know of guys who would think outright raping someone with a penis could be a prank) and I see no evidence that they're any less likely to re-offend (with fingers or penis) than someone who used their penis.

They've shown no remorse (other than the fact they got caught because they didn't hide their evidence well enough) and they have an appallingly large number of people supporting them due to their athletic skill alone. That combination of lack of remorse, a feeling that they’re “owed†anything they want, and that they can get away with it because of athletics is a dangerous combination that I don’t see getting any less dangerous any time soon.

Okay, so, then we do agree? I never said anything about the kids not being guilty. They are rapists, period. I just think that they (again, THEY not I) possibly don't see what they did as rape, that they seem to view it as good ol' high school fun that was just blown out of proportion by the OMGmedia. (By the way, I thought that was what doggie was trying to say in his later clarifications.) They don't feel remorse because they feel like they were the ones who are being wronged because of the futures that were taken away from them they threw away when they raped that girl and stole her future, in a sense.

(Random thoughts you may not agree with: Maybe they're just putting up a front... What teenager doesn't lie through their teeth when confronted about being stupid and impulsive? I feel like at least some of them must damn well know that what they did was wrong, but that they may be scared of being labeled rapists forever. teenagers + alcohol = terrible decisions, and I feel like the [albeit limited] time they will spend locked up will allow for reflection, counseling [which, in my brother's experience, was mandatory in juvenile lockup], etc. that many sexual offenders do not receive, since so many of them get away with their crimes. That is why I have more hope for them than some other rapists; I'm not saying they're less likely to re-reoffend because of any aspect the crime itself. I'm hoping that at least some of them are "just" caught up in group thought RE: the guilt/lack thereof, and that they're capable of growing up and realizing the gravity of the situation once they're separated, isolated, and no longer seen as sports stars.)

[valsa]

they may be scared of being labeled rapists forever.

Unless they manage to invent a time machine, they are rapists forever.

teenagers + alcohol = terrible decisions

I think labeling gang rape as a "terrible decision" is understating the issue by quite a bit.

[formergothardite]

This does need to haunt them for the rest of their lives. It will the girl they raped.

Wasn't the person video it not even drunk, so alcohol can't be blamed for his decision.

[BlondeAgent007]

I think group mentality and peer pressure, along with alcohol, could have heavily influenced the actions of some of the boys. People in a group do things they would never do alone, like murder or bully. Everyone is at fault and everyone should be punished. Our media shows actions like these as funny, so long as there is no PIV involved. I recall a South Park episode where as a prank, Cartman takes a picture of himself with Butter's penis in his mouth to show Butters is gay. His friends inform him that the picture would make HIM the gay one, so he panics and tries to get it back. This would also be considered rape, but is instead played off as a funny scenario. No mention of the perpetrated rape at all.

I think these boys think of this as "our friend got drunk lets draw penises on him and take pictures" thing that got blown up. It's not unheard of for drunk teenage boys to pee on other passed out teenage boys as a joke. Sick, yes, but it happens. That's not what it is, it was a rape, and should be treated as such. I just think the same extent of malicious intent was not shared by all involved.

[Three and Done]

I have heard it reported that this particular girl was intentionally singled out as a victim.

I DO NOT for one minute believe that this would have been their last victim had they not been caught.

Make all the excuses you like about alcohol and group mentality, but that is all they are - excuses. I attended a number of parties in my youth where quite a few participants were intoxicated, and shockingly enough... NO ONE was raped.

[Spider Burps]

Unless they manage to invent a time machine, they are rapists forever.

I think labeling gang rape as a "terrible decision" is understating the issue by quite a bit.

Oh, sorry, do you think it's a jolly good decision? A well thought out choice? No, it's a terrible decision that will haunt them forever (as it should.) It's not like I said it was a "bad idea" or an "oopsie!" or something blithe like that. You can't pick on me for using the word "terrible" to describe what is, in fact, a terrible situation for the victim, and a terrible decision the rapists made to take advantage of a girl unable to consent.

I said they are rapists. I said in their minds -they- may not feel they are rapists, hence them fearing having to accept the label of rapist for life. It's human nature to not want to accept that you're a terrible (oh no!!!!!!!) person.

Things look way worse when quoted out of context (you know, the parts where I said over and over that they were rapists who ruined a girl's life) and you, valsa, are the queen of doing just that. It's like you routinely choose to be impossibly difficult so that you can get the last word in. I'm not falling into the trap of arguing with you; I've said my part and don't have anything to add.

[sparkles]

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the animals who were responsible for raping this young girl. A prank is mooning someone out the car window. TPing someone's house. Violating, assaulting, molesting and humiliating another person is not a prank. She was treated like a blow-up doll, not a human being. Just because she got drunk didn't mean she gave free reign to be assaulted. Her rapists and those who stood by and watched it happen were PROUD of what they did. Sorry, no second chances.

And as for the parents of the boys who ask what kind of parents the girl had that she was out partying and getting drunk, I ask what kind of parents the BOYS had who would teach their sons that instead of stepping in to protect the girl and drive her home to safety, it's okay to rape her.

I went to college in the early/mid 70s. (Somehow I ended up at a HUGE sports/Greek school--something that never even occurred to me to check for since I didn't care about either and they were barely on my radar, but the school was great for my planned major.) The incoming freshman women had a separate orientation meeting where we were all issued rape whistles--yes, they were actually called that--and warned to stay away from the dorms that housed the football team, even if it meant going out of our way. By issuing this warning, the school was basically absolving itself of any responsibility for our safety, should we happen to be assaulted if we did venture into hostile territory. We were WARNED, you see, so if we ignored those warnings and something happened, it was our fault. Nothing was ever said about holding the players accountable, requiring some kind of education, sensitivity training, or anything else that might have taken precious time away from practice. No, the burden and the blame were all on us. Nearly 40 years later, nothing, NOTHING has changed.

[LostSamurai]

FUCK YOU TOO AND YOUR POOR COMPREHENSION SKILLS. I get so sick of people misunderstanding me. I never said that they were not guilty that they deserved less punishment or that they were nice guys. My whole point was just to point out how they may have saw it and that they may not repeat it. That's it. But all I see I am accused of saying they should get off and that they did not rape and all kinds of SHIT I never said. I do have trouble explaining myself But this is getting FUCKING OLD. I wanted them to get more punishment I do not condone or have I ever posted that they Deserve a light sentence. But I see them being accused of being serial rapists and that there is no way they would ever stop. I was trying to point out this may not be the case. But in NO FUCKING WAY have I ever condoned what they did was a no big deal. Take that as you will and believe what you want Kind of reminds me of a fundy. They deserve severe punishment But they are also young and they need a chance to change. What kind of America would this be if every first offender was given life in jail? But I see a witch hunt here and people read what they want to read in my posts.

Ok. I'll play this game:

If I misunderstood you, then I do sincerely apologize. However, I'm not the only one so go tell off everyone else too.

However, sorry. They deserve a harsh punishment for what they did. Does that make me fundy? WHatfuckingever OH WELL.

They raped a girl. They deserve every single fucking thing they get. Let the little shits spend their days on the sex offenders list; maybe it'll teach someone else out there that these things are inexcusable and unacceptable.

[valsa]

It's not like I said it was a "bad idea" or an "oopsie!" or something blithe like that.

The implication of "teens + booze = terrible decision" does seem rather blithe, which is why I said it was understating the issue. "Teens + booze = terrible decision" is something I would expect to see describing a group of teens taking their parent's car for a joyride or an actual stupid prank.

I've said my part and don't have anything to add.

Agreed.

[Jenny]

Two teenage girls were arrested for making threats against the victim.

www.wtov9.com/news/news/2-juveniles-arr ... ing/nWxKT/

I read on Facebook that one of these girls is a relative (sister or cousin) of one of the defendants.

I tried to post this yesterday, but the board went down.