I couldn't have said it better - Pat Condell

[JesusFightClub]

No, I'm going to step in again (though I know I'll regret it) because I think it's important to oppose fascists, and latraviata, what you are saying is almost indistinguishable from what they do.

To set your wee petty personal whinges (cause you're allowed to give it, but it's apparently not possible for you to take it) aside, no I don't resent you. Why the hell would I resent the life of someone who tells us all the time how beyoooooooootiful she looks at the age of 62 compared to someone 30 years her junior, how fantastically kind her actions have been and how wonderfully she's brought up her children compared to everyone else's? Because, in the real world, your statements are known as "overcompensating". In the honest real world they're known as "lying". Someone who has to live like that is a sad person. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't so bloody annoying.

Yeah, I've had a tough road to travel. Everyone has. I'm truthful about it. You are basically just saying these things: "I'm an amazing mum. Shut up and listen to me." "I'm a kind and wonderful person. Shut up and listen to me." "I am a woman of a certain age. Shut up and listen to me." And so on and so on.

I know I am rude. That's because I don't like you. If you won't listen to me listen to Burris and UmmSqueakster. They and others in this thread are explaining details to you and with other people are trying to help you get a grip regarding our Muslim fellow citizens. My job isn't fash outreach so I am glad they're more patient than I am.

BTW, the Daily Mail is a rag I wouldn't use to wipe my arse with. But I looked at your link earlier. Choudary and his pals number about 50 people on a good day. They're good for publicity if a. you are extremely gullible or b. you're a Daily Mail journo short of a story. I suppose you fall into category a.

Look, anarchist organisations that number less than 30 flypost. I've done it myself. I've posted up flyers which said Smash Capitalism! and I belong to a bigger organisation than Choudary's lot will ever be. I suppose that means we're taking over the UK and soon we'll be in a state of socialist revolution.

Oh no, wait. The flyposters were all white.

[Burris]

Internet is media as well and since you are so well informed, you should know that the Dutch media as in telly, radio and newspapers are predominantly left wing. The Islamic plastered over the media is coming from the muslim community.

Reading the q'uran means you know everything about islam?

Ooooh, snap! So let me get this straight: Reading the Qur'an doesn't make me fit to offer an informed opinion on Islam, but your having imbibed a bunch of fascist crap makes you fit to have a strong opinion that absolutely no one can shake?

Reading the bible means you know everything about chistianity?

Please.

...the fuck?

[emmiedahl]

I think the point everyone is trying to make is that you cannot blame every Muslim you see for a Muslim crime problem, even if such exists in your city. It's not fair to say 'Muslims are doing this'. Not all Muslims are doing it. Not all. Probably not even a majority.

We have minorities in the US who have a higher than average rate of crime but we can't say All X are the problem. That is prejudice and racism. Maybe some European countries need to crack down on certain crimes, but not crack down on Muslims. Big difference there. Like I said on like page one, I have good friends in France and I know there are huge issues that need dealt with. They are crime issues, not Muslim issues. Easy to make that mistake, but it's not a good way to think about people.

[Wolfie]

Oh really and where in the thread I started to derail and became proud of or justitified my prejudice? The chairman of the muslim community stated that dialoque and consensus is a western concept, to the muslim community and culture it means weakness, he is right, but he said it not me.

It is very difficult to have discussion without generalisation.

I could add with every critical sentence that 'not all muslims cause problems', but that doesn't make the problem disappear, does it?

I suggest that you do more research on the history of Islamic society. You're only talking about fundimentalism (and it's just as true in ANY fundie version of a religion that you do what you're told and you don't question it.) I suggest that you read The Diary of Malcom X. He was recruited into a militant fundimentalist Muslim cult. Eventually he was able to visit Mecca. He learned that what he had been taught was "Islam" was not. It changed his whole life and attitude to the world. He went from the Nation of Islam to an activist for getting people of different races to work together.

I have many Muslim students, and, trust me, they prefer to challenge and discuss rather than just be told what to do.

[latraviata]

she looks at the age of 62 compared to someone 30 years her junior

You have run out of arguments, using a joke about looking younger than Zsu?

Communism, Marxism it all worked very well, didn't it?

Does it make any difference the killing and oppression by either communism or facism?

You are a pathetic fool!

[Cran]

Hi

first post sorry, culdn't find a topic for introductions yet. Lurking for a long time (was sometimes active under the same nick on sweepindthecobwebs), but this discussion prompted me to de-lurk. I would like to give my opinion on the non-integration of Muslims in Europe, or, as I cannot speak for the situation in Eruope as a whole contintent, I'll limit myself to my homecountry, Germany.

Especially in the cities, there's a considerable population of immigrants who came during the 60's and 70's when Germany had a great shortage of workers. Most of them came from Croatia, South Italy and Turkey. Many of them had little education and where highly religious, and unfortunately, the German schoolsystem is infamous for punishing children who do not come from educated backgrounds by not equipping them properly to advance further. Result: If your parents did not have a good education, you are likely to end up with a bad one, too. Not only if you are from a different ethnicity, this applies to German children as well. Actually, the group of the "new precariat" gives as much trouble as the problem of integration.

So the descendants of those immigrants TODAY (their children and grandchildren) have a high likelyhood of getting out of school without a degree and/or finding no job afterwards. Won't even start talking about going on to university. Of course, some do, but the majority does not. There are studies that how the grandchildren of Turkish immigrants often have a lower ability to speak German than their grandparents!

Interestingly enough, fom the three main groups I mentioned (Italia, Croatia, Turkey), Turkish people are most unlikely to be integrated into society. The reasons are up for speculation, but personally, I believe that the culture of Croatia and Italy is closer to German culture, so those people had an easiert time and were not met with so many pre-judgments.

Many Turkish, and therefore muslimic, children, are burdened in many ways (in Germany): Language bariers, an education system unfit to meet their needs, a counter culture that has formed due to the politicians who started out believing the people would return to their countries after they had worked for Germany long enough, so no need to integrate them and teach them German, right?, and bias about them (Muslims are all terrorists, all Turkish people in Germany live of state benefits - well many do, because they couldn't get an education!).

So there they are: Torn between identities, their Muslim-Turkish heritage and their German heritage, they are neither Germans, nor are they accepted as Turkish, no job, no money. What happens? Especially the young men get angry and frustrated and want to rebell against the system that refuses them participation. This might turn into harmless forms of nearly normal adolescent behavior (drinking, catcalling women etc.), or, and this is dangerous, might draw them into alternative cultures where they are feed lies about the Western culture, where their anger is feed, where they might be turned into extremists! This place is often the mosque, because the preachers are not controlled, we often do not know who those people are that are teaching in mosques, if they might be extremists on the lookout for followers. Christian preachers, on the other hand, have to meet certin requirements that have been agreed upon between the churches and the state, some small groups, imported from the US, the so-called evangelical churches, form an excpetion to this rule, but most people here are lutheran or catholic. (Btw, the hijab is not forbidden here, but children are not allowed to cover their faces, but their hair in school, many schools might have crosses in the classrooms, because our culture is considered mainly christian, and priests might teach religious education at school.)

Solution? I have none. Putting up a standard for preachers, bettering the education... but it will take a long time. To hate Islam is not the answer! To forbid outward expressions of religion is NOT the answer, it will only further prejudice and anger! Islam is not inherently violent, but it can and will be abused, as Christianity was in the past.

But I see this problem acutely, I live in a medium-sized city (about 80.000) and there are areas where I might not go alone, neither during the day or during the night, because I will be accosted and taken as a whore simply because I wear my hair not covered. And this is SO WRONG! I have pupils, female ones, who are not allowed to travel with their classmates on outings, who do not participate in swimming lessons - this so oh so WRONG, too!

Sorry, rambling about, but this topic is important to me.

[Effie]

Hey Cran! Interesting! I think I know what you mean about this whole "new ethnicity and urban culture"-thing. These youths are very torn.

I assume you have problem with segregation in Germany, as we do here in Scandinavia. Is that so? I think it's important with preventive measures in these kind of "problem areas". For example we have social workers and police-men patrolling in these areas evening-time and also day-time. There's a lot of focus on changing the youths' attitude towards the police. The police should be their friend, not their enemy. So we have police men on duty acting like big brothers/sisters, keeping an eye on the youths. We also have youth centers, where youths can meet and have fun, without drugs and other substances. We also have a kind of mentor-project where criminal youths get a grown-up mentor, with whom they can spend time outside of their neighborhood, doing fun stuff which doesn't involve drugs, alcohol or gang fights.

[JesusFightClub]

You have run out of arguments, using a joke about looking younger than Zsu?

Comminism, Marxism it all worked very well, didn't it?

Does it make any difference the killing and oppression by either communism or facism?

You are a pathetic fool!

And you, my love, are too easy. One poke and you fall over.

By the way, repeatedly pointing out I'm a communist? Is a really shit way of arguing. Strangely enough, I am actually aware of this fact (it doesn't happen by accident, you know, there is a fair bit of effort involved) and I am not going to bother defending my politics to you as you have all the humanity and political understanding of a newborn hamster. Also, you throw hissy fits.

Kelya is right, you need to relax a bit more. Maybe rereading the alleged flood of PMs telling you how great you are will comfort you. ;) If not, just gonnae no' and take a shot at behaving like an adult instead? I think you can do it if you really try.

[latraviata]

Solution? I have none. Putting up a standard for preachers, bettering the education... but it will take a long time. To hate Islam is not the answer! To forbid outward expressions of religion is NOT the answer, it will only further prejudice and anger! Islam is not inherently violent, but it can and will be abused, as Christianity was in the past.

I agree but then again I resent all religions and frankly I don't care wether they are fundamentalists or not. They all wish to believe in fairy tales and demand respect for it.

Learning more about islam is such an outdated and preposterous advice even the most die hard multiculturalists doesn't use that argument anymore. I am not very impressed by a highly controversial and criticised study conducted in the early seventies. This is supposed to be a 'intellectual contribution' to the discussion.

The Turkish President Erogan officially stated that a moderate islam doesn't exist, a moderate muslim is not a real muslim.

At this very blog, even the self proclaimed 'good, tolerant, love thy neighbour and turning the other cheek to your enemy christians' lose it completely when you disagree.

They change into screeming harpies and there is not much left of their christian love and tolerance.

I am aware of not being in the habit of moderate and pc comments. But the way people paint a picture of me only based on assumptions and of my comments pulled out of context is byond reality. It escalated to a point that it is only a matter of time before the Dutch equivalent of the CIA will come to arrest me on suspicion of being subversive and a danger to mankind.

Well the fact of the matter is, that we had a good laugh about it at last night's dinner.

[Burris]

I agree but then again I resent all religions and frankly I don't care wether they are fundamentalists or not. They all wish to believe in fairy tales and demand respect for it.

Well, at least you're an equal-opportunity bigot.

Learning more about islam is such an outdated and preposterous advice even the most die hard multiculturalists doesn't use that argument anymore.

Learning more about Islam is an "outdated" idea? No one suggests that anymore? LOL!

What - did you overdose on stupid pills or something? I can't believe how quickly you deteriorated from a decent poster into a mouth-breathing looney.

Or maybe I just ignored your excesses before now, which is more my fault than anything.

[Burris]

Thank you, Cran. It's nice to see some nuanced commentary.

[Cran]

I assume you have problem with segregation in Germany, as we do here in Scandinavia. Is that so? I think it's important with preventive measures in these kind of "problem areas". For example we have social workers and police-men patrolling in these areas evening-time and also day-time.

Effie, yes, I guess the situation is comparable, and there are different efforts in different parts to better the situation (ah, the joys of federal government!), but I am really not qualified to say anything about it en detail. Everybody struggles to address this problem, and money is, as always, short.

Latraviata, I do not demand that people who are religious get more respect and freedom than those who are agnostic, atheistic or just do not care to give themselves a label. But freedom of speach and religion means to me that EVERYBODY has the right to epress his/her believes (and live according to them) in a way that doesn't hurt others. I might be annoyed by JW's ringing at my door or street preachers, but the minor annoyance for me does not justifiy taking away their rights from them. I do not attempt to shut up Richard Dawkins either, whom I believe to have a very limited view of Christianity and who refuses to engage in proper debate, much like the guy in the video that sparked this discussion.

Erdogan is a highly controversial figure in European politics, but he is not the Nr. 1 authority to define what Islam is. The Muslimic faith is actually, much like the Evangelical movement, characterized by the LACK of an absolute leader who has the right to define what the faith is, like, for example, the pope has. That makes Islam a very interesting, but also difficult subject to talk about, because it is nearly impossible to define THE Islam. This includes that we can't stop to study Islam, because the many facettes and the changes of time need to be taken into consideration.

You are right, there are Muslims who are radical and who believe Dschihad to mean to kill all infidels (Does anyone else think about Achmed the Dead Terrorist now? :mrgreen: ), but other Muslims might tell you that to them, Dschihad means the war inside of themselves, the war against sin, their own sin.

If you look at it from the other person's point of view, everybody has his own fairytale. To some, the fairytale is the story of Jesus. Others might believe Mohammed to be a ridiculous invention. And others might say that those who do not follow any religion are those that delude themselves and live in a fairytale. Who am I to judge who is right? I struggle along my own path, I try to learn what I can from everybody. (Just to clarify: Personally, I hold no allegiance with any religion specifically, during the last months, my own path has led me down to something that is nearly alike chaos magic.)

Burris, trying hard - my not so moderate and nuanced self will emerge soon enough! :whistle:

[keeperrox]

I've never heard an atheist proclaim they resent religion before. Every atheist I know just doesn't care about religions.

[treemom]

I realise where this coming from.

My late husband was a diplomate and we have been in the Middle East a lot, well, not a pleasure.

So, my aversion towards the islam was initially present before the mass immigration to Europe even started.

People critising islam and its attitude towards jews, women, homosexuals and actually everybody not being a muslim are defined by being nazi's. Interesting to know, that the Grand Muphti of Jerusalem teamed up with Hitler and offered his assitance to eliminate all jews by extradite them to Germany.

Basicly a great deal of the European population opposes to the islamic intolerance and discrimination and tries to preserve their freedom of speech and democracy.

But this is a very sensitive subject.

Debate and consensus is not an option in the islamic culture, dialoque and compromise is a western concept but to muslims a sign of weakness. It is an absolute illusion and rather naive to assume that it will solve any problem. We try to do that for over fourty years now without any result.

I also have been to the mid east and Arab countries. I lived in a northern African one, and I disagree with you on nearly every point.

[treemom]

Cran, I really appreciate your commentary. It seems similar to my experiences with talking with people. (yes I am an american, but a very well traveled one)

[latraviata]

Learning more about Islam is an "outdated" idea? No one suggests that anymore? LOL!

What - did you overdose on stupid pills or something? I can't believe how quickly you deteriorated from a decent poster into a mouth-breathing looney.

Or maybe I just ignored your excesses before now, which is more my fault than anything.

Yes it is, it was repeatedly recommended by the multiculturalists and many people of both sides studied the islam elaborately for many years and published their findings on the internet. For many, many years I have been on various fora regarding this particular matter and discussed (muslims pro multicul and anti multicul) and read about it extensively, I still am and no I never bothered to read the entire Q'uran. I lived in islamic countries, but that doesn't count, you know better. I criticise islam so I must be a facist and racist and not decent any longer, so I must be on medication, cannot you see how ridiculous that is? I mentioned the problems we are facing now, again racist, facist.

By the way islam is a religion, a matter of choice, not a race. And indeed, I couldn't care less about religions and its followers as long as don't try to force it on me, no and I don't start applauding when someone mentions god (Phil and Oprah) and no I don't respect people because they believe in a fairy tale.

Don't pretend to know what you are talking about, because you don't.

You mentioned in a previous post that initially you liked me. Well I never liked you to be honest, I think you are a pompous pseudo intellectual, you have a way with words in a 'l'art pour l'art(ish) fashion but as regards contents you are full of meaningless platitudes.

I told a rather personal story about my late younger son and your response was, undoubtedly well intentioned, but so presumptueus and without any draught, like the incarnation of the aformentioned Oprah and dr Phil together.

So referring to me swallowing pills and you know very well, I am on a very small dose of SSRI's and the reason why, is not only impertinent and below the belt but genuinely vicious. But I suppose I hit a nerve by not joining your fanclub and exposing your poor knowledge of European culture, press and problems.

You showed your true colours.

[latraviata]

I've never heard an atheist proclaim they resent religion before. Every atheist I know just doesn't care about religions.

I don't, as long as they don't force it on me. I am not too keen on the followers either.

There are plenty of ateists resenting religions because they can be very damaging.

[Cran]

Thank you treemom, I really look forward to participate more in this forum :)

Latraviata, you know the logical fallacy called "argumentum ad hominem", right? Truth does not change because we like or dislike a person, or if this person has a style of expression we scorn.

[latraviata]

Effie, yes, I guess the situation is comparable, and there are different efforts in different parts to better the situation (ah, the joys of federal government!), but I am really not qualified to say anything about it en detail. Everybody struggles to address this problem, and money is, as always, short.

Latraviata, I do not demand that people who are religious get more respect and freedom than those who are agnostic, atheistic or just do not care to give themselves a label. But freedom of speach and religion means to me that EVERYBODY has the right to epress his/her believes (and live according to them) in a way that doesn't hurt others. I might be annoyed by JW's ringing at my door or street preachers, but the minor annoyance for me does not justifiy taking away their rights from them. I do not attempt to shut up Richard Dawkins either, whom I believe to have a very limited view of Christianity and who refuses to engage in proper debate, much like the guy in the video that sparked this discussion.

Erdogan is a highly controversial figure in European politics, but he is not the Nr. 1 authority to define what Islam is. The Muslimic faith is actually, much like the Evangelical movement, characterized by the LACK of an absolute leader who has the right to define what the faith is, like, for example, the pope has. That makes Islam a very interesting, but also difficult subject to talk about, because it is nearly impossible to define THE Islam. This includes that we can't stop to study Islam, because the many facettes and the changes of time need to be taken into consideration.

You are right, there are Muslims who are radical and who believe Dschihad to mean to kill all infidels (Does anyone else think about Achmed the Dead Terrorist now? :mrgreen: ), but other Muslims might tell you that to them, Dschihad means the war inside of themselves, the war against sin, their own sin.

If you look at it from the other person's point of view, everybody has his own fairytale. To some, the fairytale is the story of Jesus. Others might believe Mohammed to be a ridiculous invention. And others might say that those who do not follow any religion are those that delude themselves and live in a fairytale. Who am I to judge who is right? I struggle along my own path, I try to learn what I can from everybody. (Just to clarify: Personally, I hold no allegiance with any religion specifically, during the last months, my own path has led me down to something that is nearly alike chaos magic.)

Burris, trying hard - my not so moderate and nuanced self will emerge soon enough! :whistle:

Who for the love of god is talking about taking away their rights?

Are you people reading or only guessing and assuming?

[Cran]

I didn't intent to claim that you wanted to take away anyone's right. I wrote your name at the beginning of the paragraph because my thoughts that I wrote down were triggered by your statement. Sorry.

[Burris]

Yes it is, it was repeatedly recommended by the multiculturalists and many people of both sides studied the islam elaborately for many years and published their findings on the internet.

Try reading academic papers on this subject that haven't been published on populist sites. Well, or you can continue to laze around crapping out bigoted pronouncements.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

For many, many years I have been on various fora regarding this particular matter and discussed (muslims pro multicul and anti multicul) and read about it extensively, I still am and no I never bothered to read the entire Q'uran. I lived in islamic countries, but that doesn't count, you know better.

There are other people her more knowledgeable than me. Your having lived in a sealed compound decades ago doesn't make you one of them.

I criticise islam so I must be a facist and racist and not decent any longer, so I must be on medication, cannot you see how ridiculous that is?

"Stupid pills" - it's not a reference to actual medication. It's a comment on how quickly you have devolved.

And yes, you are a fascist - and not merely for being "critical" of Islam, but rather for your elimionationist rhetoric and your apparent endorsement of right-wing nutbars.

I mentioned the problems we are facing now, again racist, facist.

That's funny: Other people here have talked intelligently about certain cultural conflicts without resorting to gross, racist caricatures and generalizations. Other people have managed it without defending the racist ultra-right wing.

You know why you can't? Because you're a racist and a fascist.

By the way islam is a religion, a matter of choice, not a race.

Ooh, snap - again. I get the impression you really think you're landing some good ones.

You think all the people being targeted for harassment for the crime of being brown are actually Muslim? You think anti-immigrant rhetoric only affects Muslims?

And just because religion is a matter of choice doesn't mean you should discriminate wholesale and make disgusting pronouncements borne entirely of your own entrenched prejudices. It doesn't mean you have the right to condescend to the rest of us based on all this "knowledge" you supposedly acquired through the media - especially not when you can't even be assed to read primary source documents.

And indeed, I couldn't care less about religions and its followers as long as don't try to force it on me, no and I don't start applauding when someone mentions god (Phil and Oprah) and no I don't respect people because they believe in a fairy tale.

You resent religion but you at once couldn't care less? You're a study in contradiction. Pretty much every thing you say in this thread, when you get called on it, you back-peddle and redefine and play stupid rhetorical games. Quite frankly, I don't know if you've told the truth about a single thing you've said, it's all so sordid.

Don't pretend to know what you are talking about, because you don't.

If so, that makes two of us.

You mentioned in a previous post that initially you liked me. Well I never liked you to be honest, I think you are a pompous pseudo intellectual, you have a way with words in a 'l'art pour l'art(ish) fashion but as regards contents you are full of meaningless platudes.

Oh no - a lazy, fascist, bottom-feeding asshole doesn't like me.

Somehow, I think I'll survive without your golden praise or diamond approval.

I told a rather personal story about my late younger son and your response was, undoubtedly well intentioned, but so presumptueus and without any draught, like the incarnation of the aformentioned Oprah and dr Phil together.

Huh?

So referring to me swallowing pills and you know very well, I am on a very small dose of SSRI's and the reason why, is not only impertinent and below the belt but genuinely vicious.

I couldn't care less if you're on SSRIs, dumb-dumb. That thought hadn't even crossed my mind while posting in this thread.

And guess what? Since you're so keen on telling "the truth" here, I'm tired of you using your dead child as a manipulative conversation-stopper.

I'm sorry for your loss, of course, but you're not the only one - and it doesn't give you the right to be a complete asshole whenever anyone dares to disagree with your pompous pronouncements.

But I suppose I hit a nerve by not joining your fanclub and exposing your poor knowledge of European culture, press and problems. You showed your true colours.

Considering that a few people with the same knowledge-base as you have come here to disagree, I don't think I'm the one you have a problem with - you viscous, hateful, petty monster.

[latraviata]

[i]And guess what? Since you're so keen on telling "the truth" here, I'm tired of you using your dead child as a manipulative conversation-stopped.[/i]

I proved my point.

You are even worse than I thought

[Burris]

[i]And guess what? Since you're so keen on telling "the truth" here, I'm tired of you using your dead child as a manipulative conversation-stopped.[/i]

I proved my point.

You are even worse than I thought

I'm also right. You pull that card in practically every thread where someone disagrees with you. It's sickening, and so are you.

[latraviata]

I'm also right. You pull that card in practically every thread where someone disagrees with you. It's sickening, and so are you.

It was triggered by the charming remark about me taking pills, that hit my nerve and I am sorry I provided you with the ammunition. And I know I am not the only one and somehow that doesn't really comfort me. It hasn't been that long ago and it is constantly on my mind but I don't use it to get your sympathy. But again pointless.

No of course, I never read academic papers :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: again assuming, guessing and concluding.

Yes different stories about the problems in Europe with the non western immigrants.

If you read the stories carefully, you will see, that they don't differ that much from mine.

Perhaps they are a bit more nuanced but grosso modo no denyal about the enormity of the problems we are facing.

But like Taryn, 'my friend in Kentucky agrees,' so it must be true.

[Burris]

It was triggered by the charming remark about me taking pills, that hit my nerve and I am sorry I provided you with the ammunition.

I shouldn't have said what I did most recently. I let it get too personal.

As for the pills, though, of course I didn't think about whether you're taking actual medication.

It was meant as an insult, yes, but not as the kind of personal swipe you thought it was.

It hasn't been that long ago and it is constantly on my mind but I don't use it to get your sympathy. But again pointless.

Well, it seemed manipulative at the time. But that still doesn't make it right how I phrased my response.

No of course, I never read academic papers :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: again assuming, guessing and concluding.

I have your words, and that's it. You mention media a lot, but not much else. You can't just keep moving the goal posts and expect that I'm going to take that seriously.

If you read the stories carefully, you will see, that they don't differ that much from mine.

It's not right to make sweeping generalizations like that. You're helping to create a dangerous and volatile climate.

You're contributing to the problem.