I couldn't have said it better - Pat Condell

[Burris]

I'll see your Ayaan Hirsi Ali and raise you a Shirin Ebadi who, in addition to being a woman's rights advocate, a Nobel Peace Prize recipient, and a judge, also happens to be a Shiite Muslim. In her memoir, she details how the Iranian post-revolutionary government persecuted her for her liberality. They murdered writers in a silent purge.

There are quite a few Islamic feminists. Among them are former Wall Street Journal reporter Asra Nomani, described as somewhat forceful and abrasive in her demand for the right to pray alongside men. Her contemporary, a female Imam and Qur'anic scholar named Amina Wadud, led a mixed group in Friday Prayer in 2005. It was controversial, but it happened.

Asma Gull Hasan, another of Nomani's contemporaries, is an American Muslim and a feminist.

In another area of interest, there's Muhammed Bah Abba, who has done inestimable good with his most notable invention - a non-electrical cooling system to better preserve food in developing countries.

There are so many examples out there.

I know of these people - Ebadi and Abba especially - because I've followed their work. The Zeer Pot in particular has been a boon for women and girls, who can now sell wares for cash rather than living on subsistence farming. For some of them, cash means a lot more freedom.

[Soldevi]

I don't say that Islam is problem free religion. Not at all. Converts are usually more stricter than those who are born into religion and same goes with Islam. We have a native muslim convert who wants sharia law to Finland. Most active muslims are against it. Most of these active figures say they are muslims by religion but they have secular views when it comes to political matters. I can only hope this will continue to be that way.

But at the moment we are still quite problem free country. Long time after WWII there was a huge tension between natives and Russians. Even in 1990's there was a problem to get a job if you had a Russian sounding name. At the moment more immigrants come from Asia: China, Thailand and India than from Middle East or Africa. For some reason Asians assimilate better in our society even if they are muslims. Why? I don't know. If I have to guess, I would say that the reason is cultural background of immigrants.

I pondered if the reason for this different kind of problems lie in history. We haven't had colonies like the Netherlands, UK or France and naturally we have had less immigrants than other European countries. We were and still are the most predominantly rural country in Europe, with more than 90% of the country consisting of sparsely settled rural areas and nearly one third of the population live in rural areas. We really don't have same kind of big cities or city structure like there are in Central Europe. Our biggest town - capital city - population is ~580 000.

This is a very complicated matter and I admit I don't know all the aspects.

[Alecto]

Converts are usually more stricter than those who are born into religion and same goes with Islam.

I have several friends who have reverted to Islam, and they are far stricter than most people who were born into Islam. In fact, I think a majority of the American citizens who have committed acts of terrorism in the name of Islam have been reverts.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Converts_to_I ... _Terrorism

My sleep is all messed up right now, but I want to mull this over a bit, because I think psychologically there is something to the convert thing. Not just to Islam, but we see the same overzealous behavior with our fundie Christians as well.

(FYI- Revert is the proper term for someone who has become a Muslim, not convert.)

[Cran]

Converts are usually more stricter than those who are born into religion and same goes with Islam. We have a native muslim convert who wants sharia law to Finland. Most active muslims are against it.

Agreed! I converted to Catholicism myself (although I am no longer a believer, I will never regret it. I love the Church nontheless, all this incense, saints, gold... ahhhh!), and was waaaaaaaaaaaaay stricter than so-called "craddle Catholics", in daily life as well as in theology, and it applied to other converts I met as well.

Coincidentally, one of the most vocal Muslim hate preachers in Germany, who claims to have stopped doing so but isn't belived, is a convert. He is called Pierre Vogel. Many of his sermons are on youtube, but in German. If you want to get an impression of him, he gives his testimony here, but it is kind of propagandaish and of course very pro-Islam, so proceed with care if easily gotten into a huff.

[latraviata]

Here is an interesting interview about 'the Norwegian killer.'

I am pretty much the same school as this 'confrère' and share his opinion on this matter and his opinions in general wholeheartedly.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... n_newsreel

[Clementine]

Very interesting thread and it's valuable to read the posts from different European posters.

The thing that scares me is that most of the big mosques in Sweden are funded by Saudi-Arabia, where they practice a very strict form of Islam. In return, they demand that the imams are appointed by Saudi-Arabia, so we basically have muslim fundamentalists as the head of the mosques. I know that a lot of muslims, who are more moderate in their beliefs, don't want to go to the big mosques because they are much too extreme for them.

A Swedish journalist, who comes from a muslim family, made a very interesting documentary about what they preach in some of the big mosques: fundamentamentalism, anti-semitism, holy war, suppression of women and spanking children, if they obey their parents or want to live like westerners.

Of course, most Swedes have no clue, since all the preaching is in Arabic. It was a very scary wake-up call for us.

I don't care what religion people practice, but I am very much against fundamentalists of all religions and I do expect our immigrants to respect our laws and let their children go to scool here and not be physically abused at home.

One more thing that I think is very different between immigrants who come to the US and some of the European countries: in the US, everybody are expected to support themselves and your wellfare is very limited.

In Sweden, every immigrant costs a small fortune, since they get tax-paid housing, food, language education that lasts several years, dental care, medical care, lawyer if they need one, work training courses... and up until a few years ago, it has been possible to live on wellfare more or less forever.

So if an immigrant came here and decided to more or less skip all language education and therefore couldn't get a job, he could just continue to support himself and his family by going to the wellfare office and claiming thousands of $$$ every month for years and years. Most immigrants don't do this, but there are communities where this is common. Overall the unemployment rate in the immigrant communities are very high and so are the crime rates.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't feel like starting the discussion all over again.

Then don't, for fuck's sake.

[latraviata]

Very interesting thread and it's valuable to read the posts from different European posters.

The thing that scares me is that most of the big mosques in Sweden are funded by Saudi-Arabia, where they practice a very strict form of Islam. In return, they demand that the imams are appointed by Saudi-Arabia, so we basically have muslim fundamentalists as the head of the mosques. I know that a lot of muslims, who are more moderate in their beliefs, don't want to go to the big mosques because they are much too extreme for them.

A Swedish journalist, who comes from a muslim family, made a very interesting documentary about what they preach in some of the big mosques: fundamentamentalism, anti-semitism, holy war, suppression of women and spanking children, if they obey their parents or want to live like westerners.

Of course, most Swedes have no clue, since all the preaching is in Arabic. It was a very scary wake-up call for us.

I don't care what religion people practice, but I am very much against fundamentalists of all religions and I do expect our immigrants to respect our laws and let their children go to scool here and not be physically abused at home.

One more thing that I think is very different between immigrants who come to the US and some of the European countries: in the US, everybody are expected to support themselves and your wellfare is very limited.

In Sweden, every immigrant costs a small fortune, since they get tax-paid housing, food, language education that lasts several years, dental care, medical care, lawyer if they need one, work training courses... and up until a few years ago, it has been possible to live on wellfare more or less forever.

So if an immigrant came here and decided to more or less skip all language education and therefore couldn't get a job, he could just continue to support himself and his family by going to the wellfare office and claiming thousands of $$$ every month for years and years. Most immigrants don't do this, but there are communities where this is common. Overall the unemployment rate in the immigrant communities are very high and so are the crime rates.

You have no idea how grateful I am.

This is exactly what I mean and the same applies for the Netherlands.

The whole threat started with an atheist video columnist and apparantly some FJ people watch and listened to his anti islam rants and were shocked.

I tried to explain but obviously not as eloquently as you did.

By the way, we had two honor killings this week and some judges are (under pressure of some islamic interest groups) very leanient in their punishment, because the crime is considered to be 'culturally and religiously determined.

[Clementine]

You have no idea how grateful I am.

This is exactly what I mean and the same applies for the Netherlands.

The whole threat started with an atheist video columnist and apparantly some FJ people watch and listened to his anti islam rants and were shocked.

I tried to explain but obviously not as eloquently as you did.

By the way, we had two honor killings this week and some judges are (under pressure of some islamic interest groups) very leanient in their punishment, because the crime is considered to be 'culturally and religiously determined.

We have the same problem here. Our authorities and government have been so afraid of being intolerant towards the immigrant groups that they have been able to get away with things like child abuse, honour killings, special education (that exludes sexual education and physical education), wife abuse etc - things that normaly are dealt with quite sternly. I hate that women and children are excluded from the safety of our laws because they come from immigrant families, it truly is a disgrace.

This has been more discussed the last 10 years, mainly because second generation immigrant feminists have started the debate. And have been persecuted or murdered because of it.

[daharyn]

A lot of things we might chalk up to "Evil Islam" are tribal customs, local customs, and things that have less to do with the person being Muslim and more to do with someone being Saudi or Pakistani or Somali, and the way that culture has integrated with their faith.

Hey, this is a REALLY great point, Alecto. I have to admit that my discomfort with Islam when I first encountered it was generally due to my misunderstanding of the culture of the people I encountered, and I was the one who mistakenly conflated it with religious practice. As I have gotten to know more practicing Muslims from different countries, I'm now quite embarrassed about my early reactions.

There are numerous different religious communities in my neighborhood, of varying faiths, including Islam--the two closest schools are a K-12 Muslim girls' school, and a K-8 co-ed Catholic school. And I'm happy to be living somewhere where we can all be together in peace. It seems to me that all the families I see around me, from all sorts of backgrounds, are just like mine--they're families. And the people in them are doing okay. I still don't fully understand the intricacies of Islam, but I have read the Qu'ran, and it seems to me to be just as good and just as weird as any other holy book I've read. (But, fair warning, I think pretty much all holy books are kind of weird. I mean, have you taken a look at the Book of Mormon lately?)

Thank you to Alecto, and Cran, and everyone else who's put out some useful information on what is otherwise a train-wreck of a thread. I for one really appreciate it.

[latraviata]

Clementine

We have the same problem here. Our authorities and government have been so afraid of being intolerant towards the immigrant groups that they have been able to get away with things like child abuse, honour killings, special education (that exludes sexual education and physical education), wife abuse etc - things that normaly are dealt with quite sternly. I hate that women and children are excluded from the safety of our laws because they come from immigrant families, it truly is a disgrace.

This has been more discussed the last 10 years, mainly because second generation immigrant feminists have started the debate. And have been persecuted or murdered because of it.

I reread my postings and somehow I tried to explain what Islam in Europe means now a days.

I am afraid you are going to be ignored either defined as a prejudiced, racist, facist and extreme right winger.

I think our American forum members have absolutely no clue what is going on because the USA is tradionally an immigration nation and Europe is not.

We better had taken the USA as an example because they are experienced and don't hand out all kinds of ridiculous benefits, privileges and passports like candy to keep everybody happy in the name of freedom of religion and the discrimination act as we do/did in Europe.

Every European will agree with you about the present situation with the exeption of a British rancorous will o'wisp coming from what apparantly is known as the' sink estates'(I would google it if I were you because she will call you a liar, for the record a qualification very loosely used in this thread) who is still in blind adoration of the blessings of communism/socialism because I am not sure if she understands the difference and I wonder if she is aware of the fact that they are tradionally very opposed to religion in general.

So, Clementine, it was nice to read your realistic comments and I totally agree with you, take care!

[Clementine]

Clementine

I reread my postings and somehow I tried to explain what Islam in Europe means now a days.

I am afraid you are going to be ignored either defined as a prejudiced, racist, facist and extreme right winger.

I think our American forum members have absolutely no clue what is going on because the USA is tradionally an immigration nation and Europe is not.

We better had taken the USA as an example because they are experienced and don't hand out all kinds of ridiculous benefits, privileges and passports like candy to keep everybody happy in the name of freedom of religion and the discrimination act as we do/did in Europe.

Every European will agree with you about the present situation with the exeption of a British rancorous will o'wisp coming from what apparantly is known as the' sink estates'(I would google it if I were you because she will call you a liar, for the record a qualification very loosely used in this thread) who is still in blind adoration of the blessings of communism/socialism because I am not sure if she understands the difference and I wonder if she is aware of the fact that they are tradionally very opposed to religion in general.

So, Clementine, it was nice to read your realistic comments and I totally agree with you, take care!

Thank you, latraviata! I think a lot of Europeans are wondering how the hell we are going to support the immigrants when we can barely afford to support ourselves, especially in this economy. Like I said before, every refugee costs at least tens of thousands of dollars of our tax-payers money.

And it is quite ironic that the US starts a war in Iraq and lets Europe pick up the tab for the refugees. Sweden (9 M) had until 2008 recieved more Iraqi immigrants than the US (300M) and Canada (34M) combined.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04319.html

I find it very provocing that we are accepting large groups of immigrants who refuse to have anything to do with us Swedes and despise our culture but still are willing to accept our money. And they cost us a lot.

[Soldevi]

I don't know about other countries but Finland needs immigrants. Some authorities have estimated that we need 1,8 - 2 million workers more than our nation can provide till 2020. Why? Because post-war generation is retiring and we will need workforce filling the gap. Parts of Finland will lose half of workforce soon. 25 000 people alone retire in 2013 and this need for workers will continue as far as 2033. Now there is 1 senior per 4 working age people and in 2025 1:2,5. If we want to provide proper care for elderly people Finland will need 140 000 new workers per year and this means new labour from immigrants. We just can't close our borders.

[Cran]

We have a shortage of workers in Germany too - but a shortage of QUALIFIED workers!

And most immigrants coming to Germany are not very well-qualified. There are special programs to alleviate it and make the country more attractive to highly educated newcomers, but that isn't really successfull yet.

30 years ago, you could come with nothing but your healthy, strong body and make a decent living. Those people are no longer needed in such large numbers for the workforce, and people who flee countries that have been ravaged by war and famines often had no possibility at all to go to school or learn a trade.

[Alecto]

One thing I have noticed with some of friends is you CAN have a higher degree from somewhere like India and it won't count in most western countries. One of my dear friends when I was working on my undergrad was a vet in India, but once he came to the US he had to essentially start over. I also know this is frequently the case with nurses and other medical professionals.

[Olivia]

I don't know about other countries but Finland needs immigrants. Some authorities have estimated that we need 1,8 - 2 million workers more than our nation can provide till 2020. Why? Because post-war generation is retiring and we will need workforce filling the gap. Parts of Finland will lose half of workforce soon. 25 000 people alone retire in 2013 and this need for workers will continue as far as 2033. Now there is 1 senior per 4 working age people and in 2025 1:2,5. If we want to provide proper care for elderly people Finland will need 140 000 new workers per year and this means new labour from immigrants. We just can't close our borders.

We have the same problem brewing in the U.S. Although given how our economic troubles have affected peoples' retirement funds, the retirement of the baby boomers may not be quite the issue we expected so early. But yes, we need our immigrants too, as much as many don't want to admit it!

I'm with PP who said that Islam is painted with a ridiculously broad brush. I don't think that means we can't discuss the issues that arise with different cultural groups assimilating candidly - and I think being either too PC or bigoted is potentially ignorance-inducing - but we certainly have to understand what the problems are and where they come from, and it's more complicated than simply the religion itself.

[Clementine]

I don't know about other countries but Finland needs immigrants. Some authorities have estimated that we need 1,8 - 2 million workers more than our nation can provide till 2020. Why? Because post-war generation is retiring and we will need workforce filling the gap. Parts of Finland will lose half of workforce soon. 25 000 people alone retire in 2013 and this need for workers will continue as far as 2033. Now there is 1 senior per 4 working age people and in 2025 1:2,5. If we want to provide proper care for elderly people Finland will need 140 000 new workers per year and this means new labour from immigrants. We just can't close our borders.

I think it's the same here in Sweden, but we need qualified labourers.

There are very few jobs at all for people with no education, even "factory jobs" and working at assembly lines reqire different computer skills these days. And working at McDonald's require good language skills.

When the immigrants came here in the 50's and 60's they could start working at some saw mill or paper factory the day after they arrived. We no longer have jobs like that here, since they have been moved to countries with low wages, like the Baltic countries, Eastern Europe or Asia.

But yes, we will need a lot of nurses the next years to care for the old people. But nursing home staff need to study for at least one or two years after high school to be qualified for those jobs.

[Soldevi]

That goes without saying that we need qualified, educated people. There is now a program in Finland which educates overseas Filipinos to nurses. They have had nursing education in the Philippines and when they arrive here, they first go to language classes. They also attend to nursing school where they study in Finnish to get same qualifications as local nurses. I know they are going bring Chinese nurses as well.

It depends on the country how hard it is to get a local license to work at medical field. Quite a large group of Finnish students study medicine abroad (i.e. Estonia and Hungary) and when they come back to Finland they take a test (to see if their education has given them same knowledge as Finnish medical education) and they are licensed if/when test passes. Getting an education abroad isn't usually the problem but the language barrier. This has been a debate during recent years. It is understandable that some occupation need fluent Finnish but demanding perfect Finnish from cleaners, packers and such is ridiculous. We could have workforce already when they are learning the language (in jobs that don't require (much) education, there is always need fo workforce like students and immigrants). It has been frustrating both for immigrants and job providers. This is mainly the first generation immigrant problem when they come from developing countries without higher education: they want to work.

[Effie]

But yes, we will need a lot of nurses the next years to care for the old people. But nursing home staff need to study for at least one or two years after high school to be qualified for those jobs.

I am working in the geriatric care and I have no health care education (undersköterskeutbildning). Neither do the other stand-ins. Of course, it's easier to get a job if you have an education as an "assistant nurse" but it's not necessary. You can feed people, shower them, help them get dressed, brush their teeth and make their beds without having an education. You can also give them medicine, if you are delegated. The only things you can't do is to give insulin, tube-feed, change colostomy bag and do some more serious bandaging...

[latraviata]

I am working in the geriatric care and I have no health care education (undersköterskeutbildning). Neither do the other stand-ins. Of course, it's easier to get a job if you have an education as an "assistant nurse" but it's not necessary. You can feed people, shower them, help them get dressed, brush their teeth and make their beds without having an education. You can also give them medicine, if you are delegated. The only things you can't do is to give insulin, tube-feed, change colostomy bag and do some more serious bandaging...

And speak the language of the patients? Allowed to touch the male patients?

On behalf of son MD:

But if it will ever come to a geriatric care admission, you stay away from me lady!!! :animals-dogrun:

[Maggie Mae]

In Alaska, we are facing a "skilled laborer" shortage. The people who moved here to build the Trans-Alaska Pipeline are reaching the age of retirement, and there are so few young people who have the skills to pick up the jobs quickly. One of the problems we have is something that people don't like to admit -- the emphasis on "college prep" education. I personally, love the idea of more people with college degrees. Education is important.

But to completely dismiss the idea of career and technical ed, when it's much more suited to certain personalities is a problem. It leaves us with shortages in jobs that are high-priority that require skills. No one cares when you are working in the field if you can quote Henry James. What matters there is if you can weld metal or operate very expensive machines. So the companies hire where ever they can. It's a problem that I'm assuming happens everywhere - people know we need "ditch diggers," but they don't want to do it, and they don't want their kids to do it, and they don't want immigrants to have jobs, so the workforce is left with "issues."

/soapbox

[Shirley MacLaine]

But to completely dismiss the idea of career and technical ed, when it's much more suited to certain personalities is a problem.

It took me a few years of university-level misery to realize I am more suited to technical work. This was never ... presented to me as an option? I dunno, growing up it never occurred to me that I would hate being in academia at all. Just seemed like the thing to do after high school. And of course university, scholarships, etc. was, like, the only seemingly easy way for me to get out of the town I was living in.

[Effie]

And speak the language of the patients? Allowed to touch the male patients?

On behalf of son MD:

But if it will ever come to a geriatric care admission, you stay away from me lady!!! :animals-dogrun:

This is Sweden, not Saudi-Arabia. If the male patients don't want us women to shower them, then they will have to stay dirty. There are only women working at my work-place.

The patients know Swedish. If they don't, then they know English.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply in the last sentence. However I know that when/if the day comes that I'm old and sick and need some help from the geriatric care, then I sure won't mind if the staff who makes my bed or changes my diaper has a health care education or not. I would rather see that the person had a keen ear and a good sense of humour.

[latraviata]

This is Sweden, not Saudi-Arabia. If the male patients don't want us women to shower them, then they will have to stay dirty. There are only women working at my work-place.

The patients know Swedish. If they don't, then they know English.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply in the last sentence. However I know that when/if the day comes that I'm old and sick and need some help from the geriatric care, then I sure won't mind if the staff who makes my bed or changes my diaper has a health care education or not. I would rather see that the person had a keen ear and a good sense of humour.

Well, I am greedy, I want it all a health care education a keen ear and a good sense of humor and preferably in my own language(s).

In the Dutch hospitals underqualified staff is really a problem, my son has to deal with it on a daily basis.

There are not many muslim nurses and very often they refuse to touch male patients, they prefer to dress completely covered, arms, head and the like, which is not very hygienic and against hospital policy, so discrimination!!!!

On the other hand on many occasions my son as a male physician had to remove muslim husbands/fathers/sons/brothers because he was not allowed to touch and examine their wifes/daughters/mothers/sisters in a life threatening situation and in some situations they threatened with violance, my son is not a violant man at all, but he is 6'4" and has a calm natural authority, so he is able to deal with the situation which is unfortunately not always the case with other hospital staff and it often escalates.

Tomorrow I will present my edited version of 'Mein Kampf' to the 'Blut und Boden working group of the Dutch Neo Nazi Party.

[Effie]

Well, I am greedy, I want it all a health care education a keen ear and a good sense of humor and preferably in my own language(s).

In the Dutch hospitals underqualified staff is really a problem, my son has to deal with it on a daily basis.

I know people who have a health care education but still aren't suitable for the job. However, I do have other education, the same one as you do.